Predestination or free wiil.

[trofimus]

it seems to me that the only way His atonement isn't functionally limited is universal salvation . . ?

Seems to be so.

Or, somebody can invent two different meanings of atonement, but the point is always the same - either all are saved or just a limited amount of people is saved.

 

[posthuman]

I think that a breakdown of events might just answer this seemingly complex question. Does God know the future. I know that Peter didn't want to believe what Jesus said to him about his three time denial. Not only did Jesus know what Peter would do, He knew what the crowds would say and do in advance also. Let's not forget the rooster which had to crow at just the completion of the denial. All of the events were completed by all involved in the time with which they completed. Did Jesus just make this happen, or is there a a specific planned future for all of us. We just get shook up because we don't know how He did it.
If God knows minute by minute what is going to happen, He is not choosing possibilities but certainties about all of our actions in the future. Look at the prophesies about the devil. That devil is supposed to follow the scriptures predictions about his own work in very specific detail. Look at the prophesies about what Jesus would have to go through in psalms , by people who were guided by the devil to do what they would do two thousand years prior. Even the devil is trying to prove God's foreknowledge to be true.

how does God come to know? is there anything He doesn't know? is there ever a time when there is ever a thing He doesn't know?

 

[trofimus]

how does God come to know? is there anything He doesn't know? is there ever a time when there is ever a thing He doesn't know?

"There is no God besides me".

Question: How can God know fore sure that there is no other God ?

 

[Hevosmies]

Seems to be so.

Or, somebody can invent two different meanings of atonement, but the point is always the same - either all are saved or just a limited amount of people is saved.

Its because you guys are operating on the basis of Atonement = salvation.

Thats why this argument of "if its universal atonement then all are saved" is brought up. In fact, the only guys who gotta worry about universalism IS calvinists.
Because of Romans 5 ! Where its contrasted between Adam and Jesus, and nobody can deny that EVERYONE is in Adam, so therefore everyone should be in Christ too, possibly, instead of it being a limited group. Cant limit the first group and not the second.

But thats a rabbit trail in and of itself, my point is: Atonement does not equal salvation. It never did in the OT and it doesnt in the NT. We see plenty of examples of that. Atonement does nothing without faith in it. Im willing to be proven wrong on this though, but im not holding my breath.

But trofimus you put in words EXACTLY what I believe here when you said: "If you believe that the atonement is made generally for all humanity, but some people are cut off from that atonement, then you end up with the final atonement to be limited, anyway. "

Thats what I believe. If that is the calvinist L, which i dont understand it to be, then count me in. Calvinist L last time I checked means Christ died only for some, not all. (which is unbiblical, ive given the verses a thousand times)

 

[Hevosmies]

it seems to me that the only way His atonement isn't functionally limited is universal salvation . . ?

Could you reply to my question, i want specifically your answer on it:

1 timothy 2:1-4 says pray for ALL people. God wants ALL to be saved. Not ALL KINDS of people as i hear ADDED to scripture by the calvinists.
The context they cry, but the context says nothing of all kinds of people, it just says to pray for kings so that you can live a peaceful life, then goes on to say pray for ALL, God wants ALL to be saved.

Does this not completely devastate the entire calvinist idea of a limited atonement and irresistable grace?

 

[posthuman]

"There is no God besides me".

Question: How can God know fore sure that there is no other God ?

​

there is a God in heaven Who reveals secrets​

(Daniel 2:28)​

​

​

 

[trofimus]

But trofimus you put in words EXACTLY what I believe here when you said: "If you believe that the atonement is made generally for all humanity, but some people are cut off from that atonement, then you end up with the final atonement to be limited, anyway. "

Thats what I believe. If that is the calvinist L, which i dont understand it to be, then count me in. Calvinist L last time I checked means Christ died only for some, not all. (which is unbiblical, ive given the verses a thousand times)

I checked the canons of Dort and I found nothing about "Christ died for some specific people only", if this is what worries you. They are talking about the effective salvation/redeption to be targeted to the ones who believe.

SECOND HEAD: ARTICLE 8. For this was the sovereign counsel and most gracious will and purpose of God the Father that the quickening and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect, for bestowing upon them alone the gift of justifying faith, thereby to bring them infallibly to salvation; that is, it was the will of God that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby He confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to Him by the Father; that He should confer upon them faith, which, together with all the other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He purchased for them by His death; should purge them from all sin, both original and actual, whether committed before or after believing; and having faithfully preserved them even to the end, should at last bring them, free from every spot and blemish, to the enjoyment of glory in His own presence forever.

SECOND HEAD: PARAGRAPH 1.
Synod rejects the errors of those who teach: That God the Father has ordained His Son to the death of the cross without a certain and definite decree to save any...

https://carm.org/canons-of-dort

 

[Hevosmies]

I checked the canons of Dort and I found nothing about "Christ died for some specific people only", if this is what worries you. They are talking about the effective salvation/redeption to be targeted to the ones who believe.

SECOND HEAD: ARTICLE 8. For this was the sovereign counsel and most gracious will and purpose of God the Father that the quickening and saving efficacy of the most precious death of His Son should extend to all the elect, for bestowing upon them alone the gift of justifying faith, thereby to bring them infallibly to salvation; that is, it was the will of God that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby He confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to Him by the Father; that He should confer upon them faith, which, together with all the other saving gifts of the Holy Spirit, He purchased for them by His death; should purge them from all sin, both original and actual, whether committed before or after believing; and having faithfully preserved them even to the end, should at last bring them, free from every spot and blemish, to the enjoyment of glory in His own presence forever.

SECOND HEAD: PARAGRAPH 1.
Synod rejects the errors of those who teach: That God the Father has ordained His Son to the death of the cross without a certain and definite decree to save any...

https://carm.org/canons-of-dort

Ahaa.
If i understood correctly, the point is that Christ died for all, every man, but its only EFFECTIVE to those who repent and believe? If that is the calvinist teaching of L in TULIP then I agree. Im wasting my time here lol
What exactly is my difference between calvinism? I think its that God grants repentance. Whereas I believe God commands us to repent, therefore we must, its our fault if we dont, not God's for not giving us the gift of repentance.

 

[trofimus]

Ahaa.
If i understood correctly, the point is that Christ died for all, every man, but its only EFFECTIVE to those who repent and believe? If that is the calvinist teaching of L in TULIP then I agree. Im wasting my time here lol
What exactly is my difference between calvinism? I think its that God grants repentance. Whereas I believe God commands us to repent, therefore we must, its our fault if we dont, not God's for not giving us the gift of repentance.

I think that the canons of Dort are the basic document of calvinism and I did not find what you criticize to be there. It seems to be only about the effective redemption limited to the elect ones.

But I do not know many calvinists who read the canons of Dort, so your fight with them can probably continue... and you can maybe teach them some orthodox calvinism now, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your religion sounds real religious EG, but are we not supposed to let the Word of God guide our footsteps? You say a spirit convinced you of what is sin and what is not, that you didn't make the choice. But Paul said;

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world (Which would include the religions of this world, yes) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (He doesn't say the Christ does all these things for them as you preach)

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not our works EG, but the Works before ordained by God. Would those "good works" be found in the Law and Prophets that the Christ said he came, not to destroy but to put into effect, to complete, to fulfill?


And the Christ said:

Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, (my work) and followeth after me, (my choice) is not worthy of me.

These are all choices that I am instructed to make. These are actions that I am to do in order to be "worthy" of the Christ.

The Christ doesn't make them for me. He doesn't pick up my cross for me, he doesn't "follow" Himself for me. He provides the "Word", and He provides "another voice" like the serpent with Eve, and then we make our choice whether to listen to Him or the other voice.

He says He gives us His Spirit after we "choose" to Love Him and Keep His Word, after we make the Choice to serve Him and not the religions of the land. Not before when we were of the world who can not receive His Truth.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A choice we make, the Christ doesn't make this choice for us. And as the Word which became Flesh He made the same promise.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that (Choose) love me, and keep my commandments.


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (The Christ, the Word of God which became Flesh) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

No doubt there is a spirit of this world which loves nothing better than to define sin for those who turn to God, just as the serpent defined God's Word to Eve.

I think this is why the Christ told His People we are to live by "Every Word" of God, the Christ doesn't "live by" them for us.

His Grace saves us, not those who just hear Him and give Him the credit for their actions as did those "Christians" the Christ warned about in Matt. 7, no, not the hearers of His Word, but the doers of His Word.

Why are you using sanctification verses (what we do AFTER we are saved) And attacking me on what happened to me before I was a child of God?

And how can I sound religious? Religion is praising all your good works. Not Praising God for all his. So again, I am confused.

From the looks of it here your trying to add works, and you call me religious?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Eternallygrateful, You are so close, all you lack is to DENY YOURSELF, take up your cross and follow Christ (Matt 16:24)

I did that 40 years ago.

But thanks for ASSUMING you know me. And once again showing you do not know me at all

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thing that you do not seem to understand is the condition you were in when you said "yes Lord". The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot say "yes" to spiritual things, because he cannot discern spiritual things, so, you must have already been regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, FAITH is a fruit of.

Lol yeah whatever

You deny the power of the spirit, and want me to be SAVED in sin.

No thank you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think that a breakdown of events might just answer this seemingly complex question. Does God know the future. I know that Peter didn't want to believe what Jesus said to him about his three time denial. Not only did Jesus know what Peter would do, He knew what the crowds would say and do in advance also. Let's not forget the rooster which had to crow at just the completion of the denial. All of the events were completed by all involved in the time with which they completed. Did Jesus just make this happen, or is there a a specific planned future for all of us. We just get shook up because we don't know how He did it.
If God knows minute by minute what is going to happen, He is not choosing possibilities but certainties about all of our actions in the future. Look at the prophesies about the devil. That devil is supposed to follow the scriptures predictions about his own work in very specific detail. Look at the prophesies about what Jesus would have to go through in psalms , by people who were guided by the devil to do what they would do two thousand years prior. Even the devil is trying to prove God's foreknowledge to be true.

The people who continue to deny God and his powr just amaze me, Trying to humanise God is what ets us humans in trouble

 

[theanointedsinner]

The people who continue to deny God and his powr just amaze me, Trying to humanise God is what ets us humans in trouble

humanization, sounds like immunization
but we don't want to be immune to God or the gospel

we want to be open to God instead

 

[Lillywolf]

unlimited atonement does not mean everyone will be saved regardless of belief! That is what the calvinist states.
What it really means is, is that as the BIBLE states, Christ died for ALL. Therefore the atonement is UNLIMITED, reaches all humans.

Just because atonement is made, it does not mean that said individual is AUTOMATICALLY saved, as I provided proof in my post earlier, here it is again:

Truth is that Jesus died for all, thats the good news after all. However if its not MIXED WITH FAITH, it doesn't do anything. Just like how atonement worked in the OT, day of atonement:


Lev 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

What do we see here? The biblical model of atonement: The sacrifice is made, yet the "soul that shall not be afflicted (humble, deny self in other translations) will be cut off from the people"
So the sacrifice is of no effect, unless they are "afflicted".
How does this work today? Same way. Jesus was the sacrifice, and those who believe in His sacrifice for them, are saved. Those who dont, the sacrifice is of no use if they remain in unbelief.

John 3:14-15
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Same thing again. In the wilderness, the serpent was there for ALL to look at, but only those who LOOKED were healed. Again the same thing with Jesus, Jesus is lifted up, but only those who believe have eternal life.
S-i-m-p-l-e. Even a theologian should understand that.

Interesting to bring up the serpent Moses held aloft, and that serves as the caduceus in American medical today, as a healing idol or symbol. When due to a serpent the first people fell into a state of disgrace.
But back to the topic at hand.

Ephesians 1:4-13 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

 

[Studyman]

Why are you using sanctification verses (what we do AFTER we are saved) And attacking me on what happened to me before I was a child of God?

And how can I sound religious? Religion is praising all your good works. Not Praising God for all his. So again, I am confused.

From the looks of it here your trying to add works, and you call me religious?

I posted scriptures. The Pharisees also claimed to be God's Children. I believe that the scriptures I posted have meaning. It's not about you personally, it's about the religion you further and how the scriptures I posted bring much of it into question. What if the Bible is right, and you have been deceived, as was Eve, into believing you are already immortal? That would explain why you teach things that are not supported by every Word of God.

If I see these things, should I not point them out?

 

[Studyman]

The bible says that we are all born into this world by natural birth and are dead in sins due to Adam's fall. We remain in that natural state of depravity, up to and until God regenerates us (Eph 2:5) and gives us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, faith is a fruit of. Without having the Spirit, we have no spiritual faith. We, as natural men, will not turn to a spiritual God, or change our minds about spiritual things (1 Cor 2:14).

So then in your religion, man does not choose to repent and turn to God. God either picks them for eternal life and makes him turn to God, or He doesn't.

I see this religion and understand how popular it is, but I don't believe it is supported by the Word of God which became Flesh as a whole. Below is just one verse which opposes this teaching, there are volumes more.

Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Shouldn't our "Faith" be supported by Every Word of God?

 

[John146]

Jer.1-5 ,God knew you before you were born.

Not found in Jeremiah at all that I have found...please be specific. Thanks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I posted scriptures. The Pharisees also claimed to be God's Children. I believe that the scriptures I posted have meaning. It's not about you personally, it's about the religion you further and how the scriptures I posted bring much of it into question. What if the Bible is right, and you have been deceived, as was Eve, into believing you are already immortal? That would explain why you teach things that are not supported by every Word of God.

If I see these things, should I not point them out?

So you think you somehow know me, and know what I do or do not do in my life. And think you have the right to judge me?

Dude, you have no clue about me, Those verses have no bearing, because I not only believe those verses, I live those verses out. But of course. Like I politely tried to show you They have no bearing on ANYTHING I said. Because I shared HOW I CAME TO CHRIST, And not what happened AFTER I CAME TO CHRIST.

So take your attacks and assumptions (you know what you do when you assume right? Well you just did that very thing) and find someone who wants to listen to you. You have nothing for me. Because you refuse to listen to a word I say, and i am not the only one, it seems to be a habit of yours.

 

[Jackson123]

I think that the canons of Dort are the basic document of calvinism and I did not find what you criticize to be there. It seems to be only about the effective redemption limited to the elect ones.

But I do not know many calvinists who read the canons of Dort, so your fight with them can probably continue... and you can maybe teach them some orthodox calvinism now, lol.

The redemtion only effective limited to the elect

I agree

Back to the bible what is Jesus say who Will be elect

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God Will elect whosoever believe in His Son Jesus.