Jewish & Gentile Relationship

[Mountaindude28]

You do understand Jesus purposely went against the talmud (namely the mishna or oral torah) in his ministry, and this is one of the reasons the pharisees rejected him do you not?

If you can answer these questions, I’ll believe you:

Why did Yeshua celebrate Chanukah? Why did Yeshua make a blessing before eating? (The Biblical text is to say grace after meals). Why did Yeshua celebrate Hoshannah Rabbah? Why did the disciples walk a Shabbat Distance? Why did Yeshua make the L-rd’s prayer identical to the Amidah (made my King Ezra and the Great Sanhedrin)? I keep going on Oral laws (forget the biblical) that’s Yeshua kept?!?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you can answer these questions, I’ll believe you:

Why did Yeshua celebrate Chanukah? Why did Yeshua make a blessing before eating? (The Biblical text is to say grace after meals). Why did Yeshua celebrate Hoshannah Rabbah? Why did the disciples walk a Shabbat Distance? Why did Yeshua make the L-rd’s prayer identical to the Amidah (made my King Ezra and the Great Sanhedrin)? I keep going on Oral laws (forget the biblical) that’s Yeshua kept?!?

1. I am not here to convince you, I am here to discuss the word. you will believe what you want, I just wish you would listen to what others are saying.
2. The fact is, He broke the sabbath according to the Talmud, (that is just one of the oral laws he broke, which made the jews MAD)
3. I am not worried about all the rest, Most books outside the bible written next to the bible has SOME biblical truth. that does not make them GODS WORD. or EQUAL with the bible.

think about it, If God broke one of those laws. according to that book, Jesus was a sinner was he not? (Which is exactly what the orthodox jews on Jesus day proclaimed about him)

In fact This is exactly what your torah says, If you break one of these commands, your under a curse.

why do you keep denying this?

 

[Mountaindude28]

1. I am not here to convince you, I am here to discuss the word. you will believe what you want, I just wish you would listen to what others are saying.
2. The fact is, He broke the sabbath according to the Talmud, (that is just one of the oral laws he broke, which made the jews MAD)
3. I am not worried about all the rest, Most books outside the bible written next to the bible has SOME biblical truth. that does not make them GODS WORD. or EQUAL with the bible.

think about it, If God broke one of those laws. according to that book, Jesus was a sinner was he not? (Which is exactly what the orthodox jews on Jesus day proclaimed about him)

In fact This is exactly what your torah says, If you break one of these commands, your under a curse.

why do you keep denying this?

Why do you reference the Torah in such a manner? G-d made the Torah and Yeshua is the Word is he not? Now, you refuse answer my questions but you throw your own opinions in without fact. Didn’t Yeshua say, “man shall not live on bread alone but EVERY WORD that comes out of the mouth of G-d”? (Which Moshe said, so I guess Yeshua secretly liked Moshe’s word but hated his Torah right???).

It’s sad that what I bring effects Gentiles to ZERO degree but yet they hate the Torah and yet fail to recognize who made such a thing.

Prove to me your statement in the Talmud about HOW to keep Shabbat in tractate Shabbat because I’d love to see it. I can show you multiple verses that SUPPORT Yeshua’s statement and Yeshua himself makes it clear so foolish people wouldn’t misunderstand him, hence the parable of King David. If one must save a life on Shabbat then of course you can break the laws! Duh! Every Jew knows this. Have you ever spent time with a Jew? Do you not know how many observant Jews believer in Yeshua from the time he walked the earth to now, yet you categorize G-d’s chosen people as a bunch of heretics?

I’ll defend a Gentile against Jews all day if the matter arises and it has before but to twist words to fit your own opinions or the opinions of “church fathers” is just foolish.

 

[Mountaindude28]

1. I am not here to convince you, I am here to discuss the word. you will believe what you want, I just wish you would listen to what others are saying.
2. The fact is, He broke the sabbath according to the Talmud, (that is just one of the oral laws he broke, which made the jews MAD)
3. I am not worried about all the rest, Most books outside the bible written next to the bible has SOME biblical truth. that does not make them GODS WORD. or EQUAL with the bible.

think about it, If God broke one of those laws. according to that book, Jesus was a sinner was he not? (Which is exactly what the orthodox jews on Jesus day proclaimed about him)

In fact This is exactly what your torah says, If you break one of these commands, your under a curse.

why do you keep denying this?

It’s called Pikuach Nefesh (saving a life to override almost any commandment!).

Read tractate Yoma 84b: Here is one small tiny example:


תניא נמי הכי מחמין חמין לחולה בשבת בין להשקותו בין להברותו ולא שבת זו בלבד אמרו אלא לשבת אחרת ואין אומרים נמתין לו שמא יבריא אלא מחמין לו מיד מפני שספק נפשות דוחה את השבת ולא ספק שבת זו אלא אפי' ספק שבת אחרת
That was also taught in a baraita: One heats water for an ill person on Shabbat, whether to give him to drink or to wash him, since it might help him recover. And they did not say it is permitted to desecrate only the current Shabbat for him, but even a different, future Shabbat. And one must not say: Let us wait and perform this labor for him after Shabbat, perhaps he will get well in the meantime. Rather, one heats it for him immediately because any case of uncertainty concerning a life-threatening situation overrides Shabbat. And this is so not only with regard to uncertainty whether his life is in danger on the current Shabbat, but even in a case of uncertainty with regard to danger on a different Shabbat.

Here is an easy source to look up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

I really hope you learn something and apologies for such a remark. Not for my sake but yours.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why do you reference the Torah in such a manner?

Why are you judging me of doing something I did not do. I never said a word about the torah in the wrong way, I never said Jesus broke the torah, I just stated what the torah itself said. Do you not remember moses saying those words?

G-d made the Torah and Yeshua is the Word is he not?

I never said otherwise, so why do you judge me of saying so?

Now, you refuse answer my questions

Would answering those questions prove anything about the post I wrote that you resonded to? I have no idea if Jesus did those things, and it would not matter, Even if jesus did, It would not prove me wrong.

but you throw your own opinions in without fact.

I did not throw an opinion anywhere I through out a fact, When jesus healed on the sabbath day, He broke the sabbath according to the Talmud, When he asked the man to get up and move his bed, He commanded the man to break the talmud. Those are facts according to scripture. Not my idea or my opinion!

Didn’t Yeshua say, “man shall not live on bread alone but EVERY WORD that comes out of the mouth of G-d”? (Which Moshe said, so I guess Yeshua secretly liked Moshe’s word but hated his Torah right???).

yawn, Jesus said every word which precedes from the mouth of God. He spoke of the torah. Jesus never called the talmud Gods word, or equal to it, And by the way, Moses said that in the TORAH not in the talmud, so how does that prove the talmud is Gods word???????

It’s sad that what I bring effects Gentiles to ZERO degree but yet they hate the Torah and yet fail to recognize who made such a thing.

Ok dude your pushing it, and about to push to far. I never said I hate the torah, so get over yourself and listen to what people say.

Prove to me your statement in the Talmud about HOW to keep Shabbat in tractate Shabbat because I’d love to see it. I can show you multiple verses that SUPPORT Yeshua’s statement and Yeshua himself makes it clear so foolish people wouldn’t misunderstand him, hence the parable of King David. If one must save a life on Shabbat then of course you can break the laws! Duh! Every Jew knows this. Have you ever spent time with a Jew? Do you not know how many observant Jews believer in Yeshua from the time he walked the earth to now, yet you categorize G-d’s chosen people as a bunch of heretics?

I’ll defend a Gentile against Jews all day if the matter arises and it has before but to twist words to fit your own opinions or the opinions of “church fathers” is just foolish.

I will defend Gods word and people all day (jew or gentile alike).

You know the talmud if you say, You do not know where the talmud said those things?

Why did the orthodox jews (pharisee and Sadducee) or teachers of the law proclaim and judge God of breaking the law (torah) (which he did not? They had to come up with proof someplace did they not?

The orthodox jews sent jesus to the cross. because according to them he brke their laws. Yet your here to defend them? and say they are gods people?

sorry man, You will have to do alot better than that. Its not a jew or gentile issue, it is a Gods word (which includes the torah) issue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It’s called Pikuach Nefesh (saving a life to override almost any commandment!).

Read tractate Yoma 84b: Here is one small tiny example:


תניא נמי הכי מחמין חמין לחולה בשבת בין להשקותו בין להברותו ולא שבת זו בלבד אמרו אלא לשבת אחרת ואין אומרים נמתין לו שמא יבריא אלא מחמין לו מיד מפני שספק נפשות דוחה את השבת ולא ספק שבת זו אלא אפי' ספק שבת אחרת
That was also taught in a baraita: One heats water for an ill person on Shabbat, whether to give him to drink or to wash him, since it might help him recover. And they did not say it is permitted to desecrate only the current Shabbat for him, but even a different, future Shabbat. And one must not say: Let us wait and perform this labor for him after Shabbat, perhaps he will get well in the meantime. Rather, one heats it for him immediately because any case of uncertainty concerning a life-threatening situation overrides Shabbat. And this is so not only with regard to uncertainty whether his life is in danger on the current Shabbat, but even in a case of uncertainty with regard to danger on a different Shabbat.

Here is an easy source to look up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

I really hope you learn something and apologies for such a remark. Not for my sake but yours.

lol

Yet the Orthodox Jews claimed Jesus was in sin. because he broke there law. Which law did Jesus break??

Can you explain that?

 

[Mountaindude28]

lol

Yet the Orthodox Jews claimed Jesus was in sin. because he broke there law. Which law did Jesus break??

Can you explain that?

Oh yes only Jews killer Yeshua. I remember him saying, “I lay down my own life”, I remember Romans putting a nails through him, I remember his own disciples abandoning him..... everyone and sinners today who blasphemy Yeshua or sinners before YESHA DIED for. But sure, if it makes you sleep better believing that Jews killed Yeshua then sure,

Let alone even if your crazy perspective was right STILLL Yeshua wants Jews to come and even Paul writes to the Jew 1st...so what do you do to help and love Jews???

The way use phrase your words against Jews already shows me your perspective on Jews. It doesn’t need to be written in golden letters but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about you and hate you. I just wish you would open your mind and learn a bit for the sake of G-d.

Now you never answered my wuaestions to why Yeshua followed so many oral practices....I wonder why, since you were that stated Oral laws were heretical...

For your last comment: Do you know that there are many observant Jews form Yeshua’s time (Paul, Nicodemus, many Pharisees and Sadduccees, thousands of Jews in Acts) and thousands until this day. But do you know what there problem is?

It isn’t Yeshua and it isn’t the N.T., it’s “Jesus’s followers....”. Ask any honest Jew and at minimum they will say he was a good Jew and a man taught in the Pharisitcal line (because the writings are very similar to the Jewish eye), but his followers who make comments like that and the 2,000 YEARS OF JEWISH PERSECUTION because of silly Christian theology.,.. is what keeps Jews away.

You go through a holocaust and have 6 million of your people die in a time where Christians are told to LOVE EVEN THEIR ENEMIES....yet they shout “Christ killers” and turn a blind eye....forget theology, history itself is quite ugly.

Why is the question you should ask for a bunch of “loving people”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh yes only Jews killer Yeshua. I remember him saying, “I lay down my own life”, I remember Romans putting a nails through him, I remember his own disciples abandoning him..... everyone and sinners today who blasphemy Yeshua or sinners before YESHA DIED for. But sure, if it makes you sleep better believing that Jews killed Yeshua then sure,

Let alone even if your crazy perspective was right STILLL Yeshua wants Jews to come and even Paul writes to the Jew 1st...so what do you do to help and love Jews???

The way use phrase your words against Jews already shows me your perspective on Jews. It doesn’t need to be written in golden letters but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about you and hate you. I just wish you would open your mind and learn a bit for the sake of G-d.

I did not say the Jews Killed Jesus, If your not going to listen to a word a person says, Then why bother.

I said the orthodox (traditional) leaders of the jews did. The disciples did not send Jesus to his death, why would you even mention them?

Now you never answered my wuaestions to why Yeshua followed so many oral practices....I wonder why, since you were that stated Oral laws were heretical...

You never answered how Jesus if he broke one of them would not be declaired a sinner. Do you think Jesus sinned? Your question is not applicable to our conversation. It does nto matter if he obeyed 90% of them, If he broke the other 10 Percent, he is either a sinner, or they are not GODS LAWS. period.

For your last comment: Do you know that there are many observant Jews form Yeshua’s time (Paul, Nicodemus, many Pharisees and Sadduccees, thousands of Jews in Acts) and thousands until this day. But do you know what there problem is?

yeah, I do know them, Have you read paul? He was against those who attempted to be right with God by following the torah. Like Jesus he fought those same orthodox or religious jews his whole life after he converted

I am not against observing things of the law (again you judge me unfairely) I am trying to show you how these people you are defending were not Gods people

It isn’t Yeshua and it isn’t the N.T., it’s “Jesus’s followers....”. Ask any honest Jew and at minimum they will say he was a good Jew and a man taught in the Pharisitcal line (because the writings are very similar to the Jewish eye), but his followers who make comments like that and the 2,000 YEARS OF JEWISH PERSECUTION because of silly Christian theology.,.. is what keeps Jews away.

You go through a holocaust and have 6 million of your people die in a time where Christians are told to LOVE EVEN THEIR ENEMIES....yet they shout “Christ killers” and turn a blind eye....forget theology, history itself is quite ugly.

Why is the question you should ask for a bunch of “loving people”

Have you read romans? Try chapter 11. Why did Paul call the jews enemies of the gospel. but beloved according to the elction Can you explain why?

from what your saying, I can not believe you have read or studied pauls writtings at all

 

[Mountaindude28]

I did not say the Jews Killed Jesus, If your not going to listen to a word a person says, Then why bother.

I said the orthodox (traditional) leaders of the jews did. The disciples did not send Jesus to his death, why would you even mention them?



You never answered how Jesus if he broke one of them would not be declaired a sinner. Do you think Jesus sinned? Your question is not applicable to our conversation. It does nto matter if he obeyed 90% of them, If he broke the other 10 Percent, he is either a sinner, or they are not GODS LAWS. period.



yeah, I do know them, Have you read paul? He was against those who attempted to be right with God by following the torah. Like Jesus he fought those same orthodox or religious jews his whole life after he converted

I am not against observing things of the law (again you judge me unfairely) I am trying to show you how these people you are defending were not Gods people



Have you read romans? Try chapter 11. Why did Paul call the jews enemies of the gospel. but beloved according to the elction Can you explain why?

from what your saying, I can not believe you have read or studied pauls writtings at all

Read the context of Paul and who his ministry is too.

 

[Mountaindude28]

Jews do the exact same thing, they forbid Gentiles from learning the Torah because it can be a poison to one who doesn’t learn it properly.... hence the 40,000 denominations and growing...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Read the context of Paul and who his ministry is too.

Alot of the Context is Legalistic jews trying to add Jewish traditions like circumcision or the sabbath or kosher foods to the Gospel of Christ. And do you know what Paul said about all of these jewish laws?

His ministry to to gentiles. Its sad he had to protect him from the people your defending.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jews do the exact same thing, they forbid Gentiles from learning the Torah because it can be a poison to one who doesn’t learn it properly.... hence the 40,000 denominations and growing...

lol, The religious Jews can not prevent me from studying the torah. Why do you think they could?

Again, As I said before. I have many christian jews in my church. They are my brothers and sisters in christ, I just wish ALL jews could come to their messiah. And I pray for them all and nations all the time.

 

[Laish]

My name is Mike and I truly have a heart for all people on this earth to know G-d and His Messiah Yeshua/Jesus. It is evident that the church has done a wonderful if not an excelling job at reaching various nations (especially in the last 50 years), and spreading the word of G-d to the best of their abilities. But does it not stump you for one minute, that we are not reaching Orthodox Jews? One needs to go no further than any of the Gospels or Romans 11 to recognize one major part of being a "Christian" or "Follower of the Messiah", is to reach the Jewish people about their 100% Kosher/Jewish Messiah. To go even further, we know that Yeshua/Jesus has not completed the FULL mission of what a Messiah must do and the Jews call this Mashiach Ben Yosef (Messiah Son of Yosef) and he will need to return as Mashiach Ben David. Now, this is not to disregard the teachings of Sha'ul/Paul to the Gentiles and their non-observance of the Torah, but as Colossians 1:9-13 teaches us, we even as Gentiles have the Spirit to KNOW G-d's wisdom (Torah), in order to "provoke" Jews back to their Messiah.

Question: Why are we either not reaching this goal of redeeming the Orthodox Jewish Community OR why are we not questioning ourselves for not fulfilling such a major part of our role, which will ring in the Messiah's 2nd coming?

Ok I have a question. How are you going to reach a Orthodox Jews. If they are following their faith they are not to listen or discuss matters of Torah with one that is not descend from the tribe of Israel? If your ancestors are not of those that encamped around Mount Sinai you are not to Be listened too . That’s a tough hurdle . Also the great commission has us going outward from Jerusalem. Not leaving but spreading. So it is to everyone
Blessings
Bill

Bill

 

[Hevosmies]

Oh yes only Jews killer Yeshua. I remember him saying, “I lay down my own life”, I remember Romans putting a nails through him, I remember his own disciples abandoning him..... everyone and sinners today who blasphemy Yeshua or sinners before YESHA DIED for. But sure, if it makes you sleep better believing that Jews killed Yeshua then sure,

Let alone even if your crazy perspective was right STILLL Yeshua wants Jews to come and even Paul writes to the Jew 1st...so what do you do to help and love Jews???

The way use phrase your words against Jews already shows me your perspective on Jews. It doesn’t need to be written in golden letters but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about you and hate you. I just wish you would open your mind and learn a bit for the sake of G-d.

Now you never answered my wuaestions to why Yeshua followed so many oral practices....I wonder why, since you were that stated Oral laws were heretical...

For your last comment: Do you know that there are many observant Jews form Yeshua’s time (Paul, Nicodemus, many Pharisees and Sadduccees, thousands of Jews in Acts) and thousands until this day. But do you know what there problem is?

It isn’t Yeshua and it isn’t the N.T., it’s “Jesus’s followers....”. Ask any honest Jew and at minimum they will say he was a good Jew and a man taught in the Pharisitcal line (because the writings are very similar to the Jewish eye), but his followers who make comments like that and the 2,000 YEARS OF JEWISH PERSECUTION because of silly Christian theology.,.. is what keeps Jews away.

You go through a holocaust and have 6 million of your people die in a time where Christians are told to LOVE EVEN THEIR ENEMIES....yet they shout “Christ killers” and turn a blind eye....forget theology, history itself is quite ugly.

Why is the question you should ask for a bunch of “loving people”

You are again disagreeing with the Bible (Peter to be precise, this is where false doctrine leads), which states they did indeed kill Jesus. Lets check out the new testament. Not the trashmud.

Here it is:

Act 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Ditch the trashmud and study the new testament for a change, you would of known the above verses had you done it.

 

[SpoonJuly]

It’s called Pikuach Nefesh (saving a life to override almost any commandment!).

Read tractate Yoma 84b: Here is one small tiny example:


תניא נמי הכי מחמין חמין לחולה בשבת בין להשקותו בין להברותו ולא שבת זו בלבד אמרו אלא לשבת אחרת ואין אומרים נמתין לו שמא יבריא אלא מחמין לו מיד מפני שספק נפשות דוחה את השבת ולא ספק שבת זו אלא אפי' ספק שבת אחרת
That was also taught in a baraita: One heats water for an ill person on Shabbat, whether to give him to drink or to wash him, since it might help him recover. And they did not say it is permitted to desecrate only the current Shabbat for him, but even a different, future Shabbat. And one must not say: Let us wait and perform this labor for him after Shabbat, perhaps he will get well in the meantime. Rather, one heats it for him immediately because any case of uncertainty concerning a life-threatening situation overrides Shabbat. And this is so not only with regard to uncertainty whether his life is in danger on the current Shabbat, but even in a case of uncertainty with regard to danger on a different Shabbat.

Here is an easy source to look up: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

I really hope you learn something and apologies for such a remark. Not for my sake but yours.

What we have here is a man filled with pride who tries to prove his superior understanding by using numerous Hebrew words to cover up that misunderstanding.
And of course, if you disagree with him, you are a Jew hater.

 

[Blik]

BTW......what are you doing to reach the Orthahardheads? I'm kinda busy where I am, and the only hardheart/heads we got here are catfish............

God established salvation for mankind as soon as man fell and knew sin. Innocent blood has always been required to pay for sin.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are again disagreeing with the Bible (Peter to be precise, this is where false doctrine leads), which states they did indeed kill Jesus.

And to complete the picture, Stephen went even further and accused the Jews of being betrayers and murderers:

ACTS 7
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

 

[garee]

Jews do the exact same thing, they forbid Gentiles from learning the Torah because it can be a poison to one who doesn’t learn it properly.... hence the 40,000 denominations and growing...

The number of denominations is never a problem . Two or three that gather together under the name of God as the authority of God's word he is present. Two or three (a family) agreeing with him makes a denomination or sect. God is the father of many nation called denominations. Each one a part of the whole church.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

And teaching the Torah, the law separate from the prophets. The law and the prophets (sola scriptura) can be like drinking poison as false doctrine

 

[garee]

Now you never answered my wuaestions to why Yeshua followed so many oral practices....I wonder why, since you were that stated Oral laws were heretical...

Oral laws are heretical...they offer opinions not the law of faith,(the unseen eternal) as it is written .

Oral traditions make the written law (scripture) of no effect. No man can serve two different teaching authorities as two masters .

They will love the one (oral)and hate the other as it is written or hate the one and love by obeying the other.

Which one will you serve today is the question?

 

[Mountaindude28]

Oral laws are heretical...they offer opinions not the law of faith,(the unseen eternal) as it is written .

Oral traditions make the written law (scripture) of no effect. No man can serve two different teaching authorities as two masters .

They will love the one (oral)and hate the other as it is written or hate the one and love by obeying the other.

Which one will you serve today is the question?

Again, the question is ignored. Why did Yeshua follow so many?

2nd: Paul makes a whole bunch of commands himself (a Pharisee himself as he would state) so what do you say on his oral laws?