Jewish & Gentile Relationship

posthuman · Oct 9, 2018

i think it really is that simple. but you have to know who it is you're believing and what it is about Him to be believed.
He also says, we must be changed and become as children - and children often see things without all the clutter of details and mentally constructed objections adults have. they often ask the hardest questions because they don't know how hard they are, and give profound answers in honesty, not knowing just how deep the subjects are.

Mountaindude28 · Oct 9, 2018

My fellow believers who truly study G-d’s word, please take a moment to think for one moment and reflect on scripture.

1. Do you not know that Torah, the Word of G-d given to Moshe has the “keys”, “wisdom” and “power” of every thing that exists on earth and heaven and more? Do you nativity minimize the Torah to offering sacrifices? What do you think Paul studied for 3 years AFTER being saved? There was no New Testament and clearly there was no “Christians Theology”. G-d is perfect right? Because if you believe there is even one flaw with it, you are clearly stating G-d is flawed. This is why’s Jews must be Jews.

2. Is a Jew any greater than a Gentile. NO. And neither is a GENTLE greater than a Jew. So anyone who posts “Gentiles have it right and Jews missed the boat”, I hope you know that these are the same seeds of Anti-Semitism that have been in the Church for 2,000+ years. What arrogance it is to state, “we have the Messiah so we don’t need the Jews or the Torah”. I get it, salvation is through Yeshua, praise G-d, but G-d created every aspect of life (from how you eat, how you arise, how you pray, how you work, how you deal with business, how to understand the universe etc,) all within the Torah! Do you not read anything from the Torah, Proverbs or Psalms? “Foolish is the man who despises wisdom”, “The Torah is perfect and a light to my feet”. The Torah is not numbed down to animal sacrifices. That’s such a narrow view of it.

“Not one Jot or Tittle (not one Yud or Nikkud) shall pass from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away” (Yeshua). Why else do you think both Yeshua (Matt 23:1-3) and The disciples (Acts 15:20-22) speak about listening to those in the seat of Moshe? To learn about animal sacrifices? What a poor insight you have, to those who SUBTRACT and minimize G-d’s word and BOAST about having a Messiah yet knowing nothing about G-d and His Inifinte Wisdom. The spirit does not lie with them.

3. I am sorry to be harsh, I really don’t want to but I don’t think you realize how these statements not only minimize G-d but His people and if you minimize G-d and the Torah (which Yeshua is), then you do not truly have the Messiah in you. No wonder Paul says, “You do not understand the basics/baby milk, how can I teach you the secrets and wisdom of what is here?” Please, you are NOT obligated to the Laws of the Torah but you are entitled to learn all the ethics, morals, and works that G-d designed.

4. Question: So G-d is Almighty right? So you are telling me G-d creates souls in this earth and in various time frames that will never know Yeshua and thus, G-d is the principle cause of going to Gehinnom? For who else ordained ones life? Understand what salvation means and what righteousness means. “I did not come for the righteous, but the sinners”. Figure that out. Figure out how G-d told Cain to repent and he would be forgiven. Figure out how King David endlessly states that repentance and walking in the commandments of G-d = righteousness but now all of sudden G-d’s Torah is “non-sense”. Tell me how Yeshua reiterates Moshe, “Man does not LIVE on bread alone but EVERY WORD that comes from the Mouth of the L-rd!”.

5. If you aren’t living by EVERY word of the L-rd (and only your sound bite theology), then tell me according to the master are you living? Will you withstand the temptations of the Adversary?

Please!!!!! Study and be like Paul, before making your own theologies. Like Yosef/Joseph, he was all masked up in idolatry, Egyptian clothing and Jews could not recognize their own. Do you think anything has changed? Humble yourselves or at least stay out of theological debates and be a good person for humanity and spread the love of Yeshua. Use facts from the bible and not your own ways because as a result, you your self are creating “traditions of men”.

6. Since Yeshua is so anti-Torah in some of your views, why did Yeshua not only follow the written Torah but the Oral Torah as well? (John 7 - Hosannah Rabbah, Hallelujah recitings, celebrations at the fountain, John 10 - Chanukah, Solomon’s Cave, The outline of the “Shemonie Esrei/Amidah through the L-rd’s Prayer”, Acts 1:16 - Shabbat Distanced walk...)

If someone would like to respond with scripture that not only answers these questions but proof your own theories and statements, I’ll feel free to Skype with you. But for those who can see the wisdom behind this, that’s amazing!!!

Don’t follow these seeds of Anti-Semitism please.

7. All those videos are Jews who totally disregarded the commandments of G-d. I get it, “works of the law” don’t equal salavation when your mindset is on “self-righteousness” like the “leaders” of the 1st century were. But there are amazing Jews and always have been, who follow the Torah with a great loving heart!!! That’s what’s G-d truly desires!

“those who do the LEAST of the commandments will be called LEAST and those for do and TEACH them will be called GREATEST!” (Yeshua)

Remember: 95% of Paul’s writings is to Gentiles, NOT Jews. Read James for the Jews, you can see why someone like Martin Luther (a man who wrote BOOKS one how to KILL JEWS: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies) wanted the book of James out of the NT.

I pray with all my heart, that you will either repent from your statements, some to learn something from this and I hope the most THAT JEW AND GENTILE can be one in harmony and love!!! We NEED EACH OTHER!!!! I argue for Christians ALL DAY with Rabbi’s and argue for Yeshua...but statements to belittle Jews and Torah....Jews will never come to know Yeshua (Mashiach Ben Yosef).

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

My fellow believers who truly study G-d’s word, please take a moment to think for one moment and reflect on scripture.

1. Do you not know that Torah, the Word of G-d given to Moshe has the “keys”, “wisdom” and “power” of every thing that exists on earth and heaven and more? Do you nativity minimize the Torah to offering sacrifices? What do you think Paul studied for 3 years AFTER being saved? There was no New Testament and clearly there was no “Christians Theology”. G-d is perfect right? Because if you believe there is even one flaw with it, you are clearly stating G-d is flawed. This is why’s Jews must be Jews.

2. Is a Jew any greater than a Gentile. NO. And neither is a GENTLE greater than a Jew. So anyone who posts “Gentiles have it right and Jews missed the boat”, I hope you know that these are the same seeds of Anti-Semitism that have been in the Church for 2,000+ years. What arrogance it is to state, “we have the Messiah so we don’t need the Jews or the Torah”. I get it, salvation is through Yeshua, praise G-d, but G-d created every aspect of life (from how you eat, how you arise, how you pray, how you work, how you deal with business, how to understand the universe etc,) all within the Torah! Do you not read anything from the Torah, Proverbs or Psalms? “Foolish is the man who despises wisdom”, “The Torah is perfect and a light to my feet”. The Torah is not numbed down to animal sacrifices. That’s such a narrow view of it.

“Not one Jot or Tittle (not one Yud or Nikkud) shall pass from the Torah until heaven and earth pass away” (Yeshua). Why else do you think both Yeshua (Matt 23:1-3) and The disciples (Acts 15:20-22) speak about listening to those in the seat of Moshe? To learn about animal sacrifices? What a poor insight you have, to those who SUBTRACT and minimize G-d’s word and BOAST about having a Messiah yet knowing nothing about G-d and His Inifinte Wisdom. The spirit does not lie with them.

3. I am sorry to be harsh, I really don’t want to but I don’t think you realize how these statements not only minimize G-d but His people and if you minimize G-d and the Torah (which Yeshua is), then you do not truly have the Messiah in you. No wonder Paul says, “You do not understand the basics/baby milk, how can I teach you the secrets and wisdom of what is here?” Please, you are NOT obligated to the Laws of the Torah but you are entitled to learn all the ethics, morals, and works that G-d designed.

4. Question: So G-d is Almighty right? So you are telling me G-d creates souls in this earth and in various time frames that will never know Yeshua and thus, G-d is the principle cause of going to Gehinnom? For who else ordained ones life? Understand what salvation means and what righteousness means. “I did not come for the righteous, but the sinners”. Figure that out. Figure out how G-d told Cain to repent and he would be forgiven. Figure out how King David endlessly states that repentance and walking in the commandments of G-d = righteousness but now all of sudden G-d’s Torah is “non-sense”. Tell me how Yeshua reiterates Moshe, “Man does not LIVE on bread alone but EVERY WORD that comes from the Mouth of the L-rd!”.

5. If you aren’t living by EVERY word of the L-rd (and only your sound bite theology), then tell me according to the master are you living? Will you withstand the temptations of the Adversary?

Please!!!!! Study and be like Paul, before making your own theologies. Like Yosef/Joseph, he was all masked up in idolatry, Egyptian clothing and Jews could not recognize their own. Do you think anything has changed? Humble yourselves or at least stay out of theological debates and be a good person for humanity and spread the love of Yeshua. Use facts from the bible and not your own ways because as a result, you your self are creating “traditions of men”.

6. Since Yeshua is so anti-Torah in some of your views, why did Yeshua not only follow the written Torah but the Oral Torah as well? (John 7 - Hosannah Rabbah, Hallelujah recitings, celebrations at the fountain, John 10 - Chanukah, Solomon’s Cave, The outline of the “Shemonie Esrei/Amidah through the L-rd’s Prayer”, Acts 1:16 - Shabbat Distanced walk...)

If someone would like to respond with scripture that not only answers these questions but proof your own theories and statements, I’ll feel free to Skype with you. But for those who can see the wisdom behind this, that’s amazing!!!

Don’t follow these seeds of Anti-Semitism please.

7. All those videos are Jews who totally disregarded the commandments of G-d. I get it, “works of the law” don’t equal salavation when your mindset is on “self-righteousness” like the “leaders” of the 1st century were. But there are amazing Jews and always have been, who follow the Torah with a great loving heart!!! That’s what’s G-d truly desires!

“those who do the LEAST of the commandments will be called LEAST and those for do and TEACH them will be called GREATEST!” (Yeshua)

Remember: 95% of Paul’s writings is to Gentiles, NOT Jews. Read James for the Jews, you can see why someone like Martin Luther (a man who wrote BOOKS one how to KILL JEWS: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies) wanted the book of James out of the NT.

I pray with all my heart, that you will either repent from your statements, some to learn something from this and I hope the most THAT JEW AND GENTILE can be one in harmony and love!!! We NEED EACH OTHER!!!! I argue for Christians ALL DAY with Rabbi’s and argue for Yeshua...but statements to belittle Jews and Torah....Jews will never come to know Yeshua (Mashiach Ben Yosef).

A few things,

1. Who here is dissing the torah? I am confused as to why you think this
2. Paul wrote to gentiles yes, Concerning what we would today orthodox jews trying to add the law and all the traditions of the jews to Grace.
3. Should I follow the law? Should I do all those ceremonies? Should I look to re-institute sacrifice and offering? If I should why?
4. Jew and Gentile can be in harmony, Not because of the law. But because of Christ, A child of God is neither jew or gentile. male or female, free or slave. They are one in Christ.
5. Who belittled jews? I may have missed this,
6. How did Jesus say the law is fulfilled? (I think this is very important and one of the differences between orthodoxy and relational christianity)

I hope I do not come across wrong, I genuinly wish to know what you are thinking, I do not want to misunderstand you.

garee · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

I would offer. They the antichrists (many) are identified as the outward Jew pertaining to the flesh that went out from the inward born again Jew because they were not of the us in respect to how the scriptures define us.

The veil was rent at the time of reformation indicateing Christ as the Son of man had come. The antichrists (many) denied Jesus Christ is come in the flesh

1 John 4:2-3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The outward Jew is still waiting for him to repeat the outward one time "demonstration" They are working on mending the rent veil and looking for a red heifer from some reason? I would call that the abomination of desolation in the holy unseen place of faith.

The one time outward demonstration of the work of the unseen Holy Spirit will not be repeated again . when he comes he will come as a thief in the night like he did in the time of Noah .This time to destroy the whole first corrupted creation.

Again one demonstration represented by the renting of the veil. (The veil represents the flesh)

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more(2 Corinthians 5:16)

Why G-d and not God?

Mountaindude28 · Oct 9, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Hello there! I’d totally answer these. Thanks for the response:

1. G-d’s Torah is eternal and given to the Jews to understand. So remember to context of the NT is Jewish and there are “deep” secrets and understandings behind every statement (I.e. how the 12 disciples match perfectly with each son of Jacob, Yeshua’s washing the feet is a hidden wisdom at the moment because of the hand and feet washing of the High Priests, Sukkot - 4 Species and Hosannnah Rabbah is a huge deep secret in itself, the 3 days and 3 night mystery that’s easily solved by the Jewish calendar/moon 1st commandments given to Israel as a nation, and the list goes on). I saw this so you may see some the deeper points the the Gospel writers are writing). But when we belittle the entire Bible (which is used for sharpening our souls), to Jesus does everything for us, it really proves how little we know. Just look at the state of Israel and in 70 years just how much it has done for itself and the world, all based on Torah Principles because Torah teaches EVERYTHING. That’s what I mean.

2. Orthodox Jews are following the written Torah which is easy to see in English but is even more clearing on countless verses in Hebrew. But what does that mean? (Ex: So how do you honour and observe the Shabbat?, What is a Shabbat distance, what foreskin should be circumcised because the make body has 3 places of foreskin, what should Tefillin/Phalacteries look like, what time constitute as sun down and sun rise, G-d said build a Sukkah but how do you build one (the word Sukkah in Hebrew is a deep secret), how do you honour your mother and father, what is stealing, can I be stealing by taking extra time on my breaks?, etc). Everything demands an answer. So yes I’m multi-translated old English bible (from the Holy Language of Hebrew), MUCH is lost, let alone not knowing the Oral Torah. The Talmud if you even read it for one minute, you will see only formulates itself from constantly sharpening each other by only using biblical text. Finally, it’s still not answered why Yeshua and the Disciples followed MANY oral laws as mentioned previously. I get the Netilat Yadaim passage in Mark about hand washing because they placed the Oral Torah Torah over the Torah (there is an order in how to do things). That’s why I ask, why did the disciples follow a Shabbat distance or why Yeshua told the blind man to make an animal sacrifices or why he celebrated Hoshanah Rabbah.

But yes, ULTRA orthodox can get very stringent on laws (like any human being on any tradition) and forget the MAIN purpose of why they do it.

3. Your statement on “shall we institute animal sacrifice” I hope is one you don’t state again. I’ll ask you this, aside from the heretical Samaratians around, have you seen Jews bring any animal sacrifices? No! Why? Because all sacrifices could only be done with a Holy Temple a long with many other of the 613 Biblical Commands from G-d. In fact a good chunk of the 613 cannot be done due too the Temple being gone (I.e. sanctifying the new moon, TITHES, various offerings, and much more). But even though these are gone, you have no idea how profound and powerful learning these laws are for morality because G-D made them. To think they are anything short of perfect, then you technically think short of G-d Himself. So it’s the mindset one needs I have to G-d, not the attitude, “oh you Jew, you want animal sacrifices “... and the Jew says, “huh? Is there a Tenple?” LOL.

4. Yes Paul is write, in a spiritual sense we all are One in Yeshua. But let me ask you something, is there still a physical man and a physical woman on this earth? Yes. So of course we are One if Yeshua but we still have separate roles and Paul makes that VERY clear in every Gospel, especially Romans.

5/6. Ok, so in Judaism or in G-d’s Torah there are something called “Choks”, which are commandments or decrees that “don’t logically make sense” but by faith we follow (I.e. how do we pronounce Hebrew letters, how tall exactly is a cubit, can I walk 2km on Shabbat, why should I kill my son Issac in an altar, why do we not mix seeds, why is Kosher food what it is, etc). So in Judaism, we all agree on the general law, but how to “particularly” follow it, can be slightly different. Therefore, Jews always work together extremely well (ex: any Jew can go to any Jew in the world and on Shabbat they will invite them even if they were from China for a Shabbat Dinner), but we follow different teachings like: Breslov, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, (all Orthodox), or in the time of Yeshua you had “Pharisees, Sadduccees, Ascenes, Samaratians”. They all follow d the Torah but in different ways.

Sooooo what does this all mean? When Yeshua “fulfills the law” yet states it shall no pass away... all Jews know what Yeshua means: that is Yeshua’s way of fulfilling the Torah is the perfect way! Actually much evidence helps “support” that Yeshua was a Pharisee and that’s why he agreed with them and told his disciples and Jews to listen to them. Today, the Pharisee sector is the only one to survive, along with 1,000 Samaritans. Now we are to love the Samaritan but the way to follow the Torah is through the Pharisee’s/Orthodox Rabbi’s. That’s a history lesson in its own.

Want proof? Well when the Jew ask Yeshua about getting a Divorce, you must remember every Jew that a “Get/Divorce” was permissible but no one had a “decisive” answer on what terms one could get one. There were various thoughts in the sectors that existed at the time. Yeshua made it clear though that the only way was through adultery. The house of Hillel and Pharisees has a very similar very.

Or Shabbat: in the Talmud it is stated that you BETTER save a life on shabbat (tractate Shabbat). Exactly what Yeshua said.

This would also explain why Yeshua focused on rebuking the Pharisees SO much because those you love the most you would disciple the most if they leading others astray. If you realize, Yeshua didn’t was time theologically with the Sadduccees because their theology was heretical (I.e. they didn’t believe in the Oral Torah, hence resurrection of the dead issues). For where in the Torah do you find resurrection of the dead???

Hevosmies · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

Stop the roleplay. You are from Canada, relax with the hebrew this is an english forum alright.
You can type "God" its not "THE NAME" which Jews can never say. God is just an english word, not hebrew and it can be used of false gods too...

I dont appreciate you taking a jab at Luther, without Luther you most likely wouldn't even have a bible in your own language. Show some respect. You are also making a false claim about Luther, he DID NOT want the book of James out of the NT, he never said that, you are just repeating the lies you heard from somewhere else.

You dare even mention the "oral torah" which is an absolute abomination, MOCKING our LORD Jesus Christ openly in that wicked collection of books known as the "talmud".

Now lets get to the meat of your post. : You and no one else is "following Torah" or "keeping Torah" today. You are simply deceiving yourself if you believe you are. Many of the things required in the Torah are not possible anymore, because there is no temple.
And you live in Canada, so you have a long trip to make to Jerusalem to appear before the congregation of the Lord for all the holidays. Hope you got the $$ for it. That is, unless you dont do that, hm?

To say Jesus fulfilled the law or that its not applicable to the christian is NOT anti-semitic, and the fact that you even suggested that is just absurd.

To your question if i have even read the Torah or the prophets, YES. ALL SCRIPTURE is profitable for doctrine and reproof. To love your neighbor is from Leviticus, there is nothing wrong with the Torah, and the books of Moses contain great doctrines and information for the Christian. I have read it, and agree with it.
The problem you have is you are not looking at the Torah/O.T. through the lenses of the N.T. Read the book of Hebrews, it explains many of the types and shadows from the O.T. and how they are fulfilled in Christ.
The moral imperative of the law is still there, not because its in the Torah, but because its in the NEW COVENANT. The New Testament repeats all of the 10Commandments EXCEPT for keep the sabbath, why is that? Because we are not REQUIRED under this covenant to keep the sabbath. Simple. To respect your parents is a MORAL commandment, to keep the sabbath is not a MORAL, but a CEREMONIAL commandment.
To love your neighbor is still in effect, because JESUS said so.
Let the NT tell you what the OT means and which parts of it still apply. That is the RIGHT method of interpretation, otherwise you end up with JUDAIZER false doctrine, back under the covenant thats done away with, and Christ is of no use there. Galatians 5:4

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

I am not sure why your so focused on law. Maybe because your a jew? Maybe not? Either way does not matter, Reading the NT with a focus on law I think causes us to miss the point. The point is Jesus fulfilled the law. Thus Jesus did what the law could never do, which is save us, The law can lead us to christ, but once the schoolmaster has done its job, We need to move on to new things, things the law could never do.

Orthodox jews think their righteousness meets Gods standard, and that is why they deserve heaven. They have to be shown, like the pharisees did in Jesus day, How this is not true. If they do not see this, they will never come to Christ, they will reject him, Like the two videos which were posted (did you watch them? They are powerful) I also am not sure if Orthodox Jews do not also follow the written laws of men added to the torah, much like the religious or orthodox jews of Jesus day

I was just asking, I am confused why people want ut to follow law. Yet pick and chose which laws we are to follow. And which ones are ok to not follow.

I hope you also know. Orthodox jews and mainstream judiasm is in the process of putting together things to rebuild the temple as we speak. They have even made the priest attire, and found the animals which are kosher to sacrifice. So you can see why I would ask this question. It is their goal. Because even they know. Until they get there, they do not follow the law completely. WHat hurts them is even if they did that, the law still condemns them, Every jot and tittle as Moses said is the requirment. Anyone who does not fullfil that requirment is under a curse. The jews do not feel they are cursed, thats why they STILL reject jesus.

Not sure what this has to do with being a born again child of God.. Jesus said we are part of one family. We are not seperate, in the church, there is no seperation. Physically or spiritually. The role of A jewish christian is no different than the role of a Gentile christian. don’t you agree?

I think you misunderstood what I meant

The law says do not commit adultry, It does not tell you how to obey this law. Nor does it tell you every possible senerio which would consititute breaking this command. That was not its purpose. Thats why Jesus said in his sermon, th elaw says this, But I tell you that. The law was not given to show us how to please God or be righteous, it was made for a different purpose. That purpose was to point us to the messiah.

will have to put this in two posts as it is too long

eternally-gratefull · Oct 9, 2018

What? Jesus was not a pharisee, He was against the pharisees because they refused to be taught by the law. Even though they knew the law better than anyone. The misinterpreted the law. They thought by the law they were right with God, they di dnot need grace or a savior. Thats why they crucified christ.

Jesus fulfilled it because HE NEVER BROKE IT (cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey every word of this law)

Every jot and tittle will never fail, because even today we have people ( jew and genitle) who need to be led to christ.

Did your forget, Paul as a pharisee Killed Christians? Do you not remember, The pharisees Killed Christ? Do you not remember most allof pauls letters were fighting the pharisee and religious jews who kept tryign to add the law to Grace? Do you not know the book of Hebrews was written because the jews who left their religion lost their property, were jailed, killed, Were cast out of their famiies, they suffered severe persecuation. And the letter was written to help them in their time of grave tribulation?

Do you also realise the jews do not consider daniel to be part of the torah (OT)?

Nehemiah6 · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

While Gentiles may not be as involved in reaching Jews as would be ideal, there are many Hebrew Christians and ministries (including Messianic Jews) who are reaching Jews. So there is no question that Orthodox Jews are being presented with the Gospel. How they respond is another matter. But at the present time, God makes no distinction between Jew and Gentiles, therefore Christians must attempt to evangelize both groups.

As to the relationship of the salvation of Jews or Gentiles to the second coming of Christ, what we learn from Scripture is that "when the fulness of the GENTILES be come in" then the second coming will be triggered.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)

SpoonJuly · Oct 9, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

Let me once again explain my position to your question.

You seem to be stating that our failure to reach the Orthodox Jews is a lack of concern and effort on our part and that is causing the return of Jesus to be delayed.
There are many who are ministering to these Jews today. I support a man with my money and prayers who is a Jew and in Israel right now. He is having some, but not much success.
Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, also had limited success in reaching the Jews/Israel during His 3 1/2 year ministry.
More rejected Him that received Him.
It should not surprise us when we also fail.
But, we are to not give up but should continue to witness to all men.

Jesus will return at the appointed time.
What we do or fail to do has no effect on that appointed time.
Now, because we do not know the hour or the day, we are to do all we can EVERY DAY to tell all men about Jesus..

Do not try to paint me as anti Jew/Israel because I disagree with your stand on this issue.
The Jews/Israel are God's choose. I love them and support them totally.

Grandpa · Oct 10, 2018

NayborBear said:

2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Those that think that the Jewish way is superior still have the vail over their mind as well. They OBVIOUSLY have not been to Christ.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Begun in the Spirit? I suppose a person must do that first before they even know what the vail is.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Well, theres the jewish way. If you are told directly that your way is a curse I suppose the vail MUST be over your mind if you just say "No its not" and continue in your same direction.

What can you say to someone who still has the vail over their heart and mind?

There is a way that SEEMS RIGHT to a man but the end thereof is death.

It seems right to follow the 10 commandments. But if it is right to follow the 10 commandments then it is NOT right to follow Christ. Once the vail comes off you can't put it back on. You either get your righteousness or you get Christs Righteousness.

Truly, if you receive Christs righteousness you will throw yours away...

You can't really provoke a people to jealousy when you are constantly kissing their butts. They're supposed to be jealous of what we have in Christ.

Would you be jealous of someone who told you that you are Gods Chosen people and He will be coming back for you but you really might want to think about trying to bring Moses into your life?

If I'm already Gods Chosen and He will be coming back for me then what would be my need for Moses? Why not just keep doing what I already know? Especially since I "know" it is right...

posthuman · Oct 10, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

they have a book to read that we don't?
are you considering oral tradition to be equal to the written word?

i am certainly not saying the OT is not of paramount importance to study. but we look for Christ in it, and the unbelieving Jew doesn't see Him there. Jesus, knowledge of Him, is the key to open the Torah is it not?

posthuman · Oct 10, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

hmm don't think this is an accurate quote, btw.

i've tried to figure out what the least commandment is, and never landed on a solid conclusion.

NayborBear · Oct 10, 2018

Grandpa said:

I hope ya don't mean that in honoring God's words to Abraham, that He will "bless" them that bless Israel, and "curse" them that curse Israel, is somehow "kissing their butts."

As we can see over the "prince of the airs'" "media outlets", the troubles and strifes in America. Yea, in Israel, as well. There must be an increase of those who are cursing Israel, in Israel, as well as in America. Which, by the way, has become so terrible, that people who HATE America (and many, many of whom HATE the God of Israel, as well as Jesus Christ of Nazareth), WON'T leave!

Even after saying they would leave! (friggin' hypocrits, that they are).

We are ALMOST "here!"

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Devil's time is short! He knows this! Yet, (ahem) Christians strive so hard, in trying to "save souls", that should NOT live!

When "love" don't work, and "ballots" don't work?
Bullets are still pretty cheap in America!
"Constitutional Carry!"
Coming to a "city" near you!

tanakh · Oct 10, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

Your idea of the Torah appears to be distorted. What was originally called the Torah before and at the time of Jesus was the five books of Moses which includes both the moral and ceremonial laws ordained by God in the Old Covenant. The Torah contains shadows and
types that pointed towards Christ as the Messiah and the only person who could keep the whole of the Torah because by his life death and resurrection he proved to be the living Torah the living word of God as opposed to the written word. He is the embodiment of the New Covenant. Jesus told the religious leaders that they read the scriptures because in them they believed they would find eternal life and they spoke about him. The Torah was fulfilled by Christ on our behalf. The whole Bible is about and centered on Christ. The message is that it is impossible to please God by trying to keep the Torah. In Isaiah we are told our righteousness is as filthy rags in the eyes of God. Jews along with most of humanity reject Christ. Anyone who rejects Christ no matter how good and righteous they may seem are lost.

Most if not all of the New Testament was written and first preached during the generation that was contemporary to Christs ministry.
During the period between Christs resurrection and ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70 God allowed that period to be used for Jews and Gentiles to turn to Christ for salvation and the Mosaic sacrificial system was kept in existence until that destruction. After that it was impossible to keep the Torah in its entirety. The Church with Christ as its head was then and still is the only way to salvation and to please God. Modern Judaism is a human substitute for the old covenant and relies almost entirely on the traditions and interpretations of Rabbis recorded in the Talmud instead of turning to Christ.

Mountaindude28 · Oct 10, 2018

posthuman said:

Start with this. Did G-d give the Torah? Yes. Is G-d perfect? Yes. Is G-d the center piece of everything? Yes. Now, with that in mind and I hope you can agree, you have to see that what is said in the NT is literally written all over the Torah and it is also in the Talmud.

Talmud: In a very very elementary sense, do you not need a "teacher" to extrapolate the inner meanings of the text? Absolutely, hence Pastors, Priests, Rabbi's and commentaries. So what makes the Talmud different, if you read it for even 1 minute, you'll begin to see that Jews extract G-d's word next to perfectly (humanly speaking, because G-d's wisdom is well beyond any man's) in relative to what G-d decided to reveal to us. Why? Because in the Talmud not for one second does it go outside the realm of Torah and the Holy Language. Here are some elementary points: a) The word for Matzah (unleavened bread) or Mitzvot (Commandment), is spelt 100% the same way (there are no vowels in the written Torah), so how do we know what G-d is saying? Moshe was taught by G-d and Moshe passed down that tradition. b) The English words "clean" or "unclean" are SUPER weak from the Hebrew words "Tahor" & "Tumah". These mean "spiritually holy/kedushah" and "ritually impure". What does this mean? Food that G-d HIMSELF (not man, not a Jew), decided to make clean and unclean are extremely beneficial or detrimental to the SOUL (not just the flesh). Of course you will argue the misuage of "clean and unclean by Jesus or Peter, but any close evaluation will clearly show you that FOR JEWS, maintaining G-d's written law is indeed intact.

Now if you think human beings are "worthless" and are only used to "praise Jesus" with a thought or by "feeling it in your soul", then you have minimized G-d and Jesus to nothing. Acts 15:21 - The disciples extract the Noachide Laws and GIVE 4 LAWS to the Gentiles TO FOLLOW, yet next to never do I ever see any Christian follow them. Paul gives MANY "Man made traditions" throughout all his writings if you want to argue tit for tat and no one argues with Paul's writings. But am I saying Paul is wrong in doing so? NO. He is a Pharisee! He thinks 100% like a Jew and knows that all the "Oral teachings" IF used properly with a GOOD HEART are EXCELLENT. This is why even Yeshua himself followed SO MANY Oral Traditions, yet I never get a response to that point.

But even more than all this, don't you have ask: Why do bad things happen? What age is the age when one is accountable for judgment? Why is there judgment? Why doesn't Jesus just return and save us? What labour is there to do? What should be praying for? Why are Jews 1st, even though they still don't except Jesus? If people didn't have Jesus before, how did they survive? Why did G-d create heaven and earth? etc...... Is studying the Torah then legalistic to answer all the questions to LIFE? The Torah has taught me SO much about humanity, science, ethics, morality, even MORE about YESHUA, but do you know WHY Jews don't see Yeshua? Because the Jesus presented most of the time is "anti-Torah = anti-G-d" and act like the book of PROVERBS doesn't exist! Do you know how many times King Solomon states how PERFECT the Torah is? OF COURSE NO ONE FILLED IT ALL! NOT EVEN MOSHE.....so what G-d created a Torah to condemn us all??? Please reread Paul and understand the "context" of his speech.

There are 613 main Biblical commands STRAIGHT from G-d's mouth....yet most Christians equate Torah with Animal Sacrifices in such a negative manner (and even then, they fail to recognize that G-D demands animal sacrifice.....AND HIS WAYS ARE NOT OUR WAYS....). Why? Because Paul is read out of context so badly, its like thinking Lebron James is the Goalie for the Boston Bruins.....LOL (he'd probably still do good hahaha). But if you read the 613 commandments.....almost all of them you'd have no idea how to fulfill them if you didn't have an Oral Law because G-d does not write out the "HOW TO".

But I'll go one final step further. Just look at the physical evidence. Look at how smart, wise and ADVANCED Jews are in relativity to the whole world? And no, G-d doesn't sprinkle some sort of special dust on them. Jews work hard like Avraham, Yitzchak, Ya'akov, Yosef, Moshe, King David.....and Yeshua. You had a holocaust (which I won't even tell you how ugly the Christian side to that is WORLDWIDE) which wiped out 6 millions Jews....yet they got most of the land Israel (which was a complete desert) and now it is one of the MOST advanced countries today....SUPPORT ARABS! This literally brings Romans 11 TO LIFE. Is this to say Christians or other human beings are not amazing? NO. But it goes to show how for the Jews go in such a quick amount of time because of....TORAH. I hope you know what a "Yeshiva" is because literally 5 year olds master the book of Leviticus inside and out and by Bar Mitzvah age 13, they know the entire bible inside and out, many deeper levels of the Bible's meaning (Because the Word is POWERFUL) and they know the WHOLE Talmud. Hence why Jews make amazing Lawyers LOL.

Finally...am I here to minimize Gentiles? LOL I AM A GENTILE SAVED BY YESHUA....but the problem is, Jews will never come to accept this "unkosher/treif Jesus" presented that most Christian's portray, let alone the "jesus" that has persecuted them for 2,000 BECAUSE of their misguided and misunderstand theology. I'll die for a believer or a Jew....but right know the "BALL", Yeshua, the Mashiach sits in the court of the Gentiles (just like Yosef did in Egypt) and it is up to GENTILES to get ahold of what is really deep in that bible, the LABOUR Yeshua called us too (not just evangelizing) and PROVOKE/MAKE JEALOUS the Jews....WHO NEED YESHUA more than anything else. For the idea of a Messiah is 100% JEWISH LOL.

*I am very sorry if this entire message sounds harsh. Please forgive me and I accept my own judgment for it. It is just that I wish Christians would crack open the book of Proverbs to get a "jolt" of what Wisdom is and how special the Torah is (of course salvation doesn't come from TRYING to selfishly master it) and that they would study it more in a Kosher manner (NOT For salvation) but to UNDERSTAND as much as they can for their own families, morality, understanding of G-D and what this all means.

Oh as for the Matt 5:17-18, its "whoever does the LEAST of these commandments and the MOST of these...... etc". Yeshua is clearly telling JEWS that their is a hierarchy in heaven and rightfully so because G-d is a JUST G-d. I'd love to sit with Moshe and Avraham, but I think at the moment, I'll be in the bleachers LOL....BUT WE SHOULD REJOICE FOR IT!!!!!

I hope this helps.

Adstar · Oct 12, 2018

My Messiah Jesus said::

Matthew 15: KJV
8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. {9} But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. {10} ¶ And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: {11} Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

I believe Jesus..

Mountaindude28 · Oct 12, 2018

Of course! I believe in the same verse, however the context of the matter is about the “netilat yadayim” (tradition of washing the hands). G-d biblically commandment Jews not to unkosher food or else by the Bible’s standards, anyone who does is an idolatry and a false prophet. So a) Jesus is not the Messiah and is leading Jews away from G-d and Jesus would be a sinner for transgression G-d’s perfect law OR b) Yeshua is the Mashiach and the people interpreting and making “sound bite theologies” are incorrect. It’s one or the other. But I am not here telling Gentles not to follow the Torah, but Yeshua cannot discard anything.

You know the Talmud and Yeshua both agree to save a life on Shabbat is the greater command but just because it’s written doesn’t mean mankind followed, hence “listen to those who sit in the seat of Moshe BUT don’t do what they do” (Matt 23:1-3). Concerning Peter, we’ll just like Yeshua called the non-Jew a DOG and the whole Tanakh references Gentiles to animals, Acts is an account of Peter not being told to break kosher but to break his hatred against Gentiles. That’s why the next verse, 3 Gentiles knock on his door and in Jerusalem he makes a testimony of G-d preparing him for accepting Gentiles in the covenant.

I said this in advance because most Christians love using those sources. But again, GENTILES are NOT obligated to Kosher laws (that are perfect because G-d made them not man, just read the bible) but Gentiles are obligated by the disciples not to eat foods given over to idols (Acts 15:20-22) but Christians rarely speak on that.

I hope this helps. I only want the truth revealed, not just for arguments sake but for those outside looking in and seeing the “misconceptions” that are taught. It really profanes the name of the Jewish Messiah who loves the WORLD.

Mountaindude28 · Oct 12, 2018

But I’ll even add this, one could follow the law of eating Kosher legally and yet not have the love of G-d in them, and then the merit for no sinning actually counts as sinner because one does it in vein. Without a sincere love for G-d and people, every commandment by G-d or Yeshua can be done in vein and for self-righteousness. So that is an additional meaning Yeshua’s statement but that doesn’t negate that one should follow G-d’s laws for Jews or Gentiles because sin = transgression of the law.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 12, 2018

Mountaindude28 said:

Of course! I believe in the same verse, however the context of the matter is about the “netilat yadayim” (tradition of washing the hands). G-d biblically commandment Jews not to unkosher food or else by the Bible’s standards, anyone who does is an idolatry and a false prophet. So a) Jesus is not the Messiah and is leading Jews away from G-d and Jesus would be a sinner for transgression G-d’s perfect law OR b) Yeshua is the Mashiach and the people interpreting and making “sound bite theologies” are incorrect. It’s one or the other. But I am not here telling Gentles not to follow the Torah, but Yeshua cannot discard anything.

You know the Talmud and Yeshua both agree to save a life on Shabbat is the greater command but just because it’s written doesn’t mean mankind followed, hence “listen to those who sit in the seat of Moshe BUT don’t do what they do” (Matt 23:1-3). Concerning Peter, we’ll just like Yeshua called the non-Jew a DOG and the whole Tanakh references Gentiles to animals, Acts is an account of Peter not being told to break kosher but to break his hatred against Gentiles. That’s why the next verse, 3 Gentiles knock on his door and in Jerusalem he makes a testimony of G-d preparing him for accepting Gentiles in the covenant.

I said this in advance because most Christians love using those sources. But again, GENTILES are NOT obligated to Kosher laws (that are perfect because G-d made them not man, just read the bible) but Gentiles are obligated by the disciples not to eat foods given over to idols (Acts 15:20-22) but Christians rarely speak on that.

I hope this helps. I only want the truth revealed, not just for arguments sake but for those outside looking in and seeing the “misconceptions” that are taught. It really profanes the name of the Jewish Messiah who loves the WORLD.

You do understand Jesus purposely went against the talmud (namely the mishna or oral torah) in his ministry, and this is one of the reasons the pharisees rejected him do you not?

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