Not By Works

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PennEd said:
The difference between Judas and Peter makes for an interesting study.
I believe the difference is that Peter knew AND confessed WHO Jesus is.
I LOVE Peter because I take comfort in the fact that although sometimes I forget who I am, which is a Child of the One True King, which leads me to falter and stumble, I DO NOT forget who Jesus is. And that is I think what happened to Peter. He denied knowing Jesus. He DID NOT recant his confession that Jesus is the Son of God.

Interesting, that many times we falter in what is our fleshly strength not weakness. Here is Peter, the COURAGEOUS one who walks on water, who moments before was ready to take on the world with his sword on Gethsamane, and now is reduced to fearing little girls that accuse him.

Now, what was Judas repenting of? Betraying INNOCENT BLOOD, NOT betraying the Son of God. Judas NEVER acknowledges WHO Jesus is. He calls Him Rabbi, Teacher,and Master but NEVER Lord because he NEVER believed Jesus was the Son of God.
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Interesting too that Jewel put a (y) on this when she refused to acknowledged any difference between what Peter did and what Judas did (keeping in mind the state of their hearts towards Jesus), when I specifically and politely asked her to. She was on quite a tear against me for some strange reason. It reminds me of the time another yakety-yak in this very thread said they bet Jesus lusted, and then wanted me to drop it when I confronted them about gutting the core of the gospel message, while they continually go around acting as if they are equipped to correct others, even though they refuse correction for themselves :(
 
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TruthTalk said:
Benhur post#72,787

Hi BaptistBibleBeliever , I'm on your side and I reported benhurs post today. As a matter of fact this post should upset every Christian, listen to his words will you please, he is saying that if "God's Children" do not produce fruit/works, God is going to, "cut us off" and throw us into the fire.

God will discipline His Children but He will never "cut us of", ask the "Prodigal Son"

This post was so arrogant and against my Savior Jesus Christ, never mind myself, that I was moved to report benhurs post. He offended my God and My Savior Jesus Christ.

Thank you BaptistBibleBeliever and God bless you for defending our Savior

Does this post of benhur not offend some of the posters on this thread, I find it extremely offensive. benhur say's that without enough fruit/works we will be cut off the true vine, "Really?" I do not think this forum is a place to voice this level of "false doctrine" on such a beautiful International Christian Forum.
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Fruit is not works. Good works produces fruit. I know this is a brand new concept to try to absorb, but God wants you to be engaged in good works as a new person in the Holy Spirit in order to produce fruit for his kingdom.

The word fruit refers to several things, but the number one thing it refers to is souls. The saving of souls is the fruit that God is looking for the most. He wants everyone to have a chance at being saved, and so much of our good works goes into missionary work, which includes proselyting for new converts, and fellowshiping our own congregations to bring people back to Jesus Christ. This is the great work that the Lord is engaged in, and this is the great work that we should be engaged in.

So don't be offended at my words, they are also the words of your Lord Jesus Christ, straight out of the bible. Now you may interpret it different than me, but that is our right to believe as we see fit, and as the Holy Spirit witnesses to me. I have grown up in the church being taught that we are new people in the Lord through our belief in Jesus and our baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that we are to be engaged in the work of the Lord. If we slack off and are too distracted by our busy worldly life and will not get engaged in the work of the Lord, then there are consequences to our actions and decisions. And I believe the bible confirms that belief.
 
TruthTalk said:
Benhur post#72,787

Hi BaptistBibleBeliever , I'm on your side and I reported benhurs post today. As a matter of fact this post should upset every Christian, listen to his words will you please, he is saying that if "God's Children" do not produce fruit/works, God is going to, "cut us off" and throw us into the fire.

God will discipline His Children but He will never "cut us of", ask the "Prodigal Son"

This post was so arrogant and against my Savior Jesus Christ, never mind myself, that I was moved to report benhurs post. He offended my God and My Savior Jesus Christ.

Thank you BaptistBibleBeliever and God bless you for defending our Savior

Does this post of benhur not offend some of the posters on this thread, I find it extremely offensive. benhur say's that without enough fruit/works we will be cut off the true vine, "Really?" I do not think this forum is a place to voice this level of "false doctrine" on such a beautiful International Christian Forum.
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Never be offended by the Word of God.
 
calibob said:
I understand but does a woman belong behind a pulpit now days. Are you familiar with Jan Crouch from Trinity broadcasting?
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Is not the Bible TIMELESS, meaning it remains the SAME AUTHORITY, and does not change with the times?

The Church is to CONFORM to the Holy Scriptures, and NOT the Holy Scriptures need to Conform to Society.

Yes, our SOCIETY has what they call Political Correctness, where women are accepted, and it involves everything.

Now it is seeps into the Church in the form of Women Pastors and Elders. God assigned separate roles for

women and men in the Church, however, HE considers them to be CO-EQUALLY IMPORTANCE, but not function.

In Our LOVE for GOD, we must be obedient to everything. So it is a question of obedience, are we going to

be obedient to GOD, or do we bow down to Society. My Church does not allow women to Teach in the assembly,

ONLY because GOD SAID SO.


1 Timothy 2:11-12 (HCSB)
11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.
12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (NKJV)
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NKJV)
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.


I amazes me, how many people want to harp of being obedient to the WORD, but not those verses. They say that changed when Society Changed. NO, . . . THAT IS HOW GOD SAID IT WAS TO BE DONE.


My Wife and I were starting to go to an Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a few weeks later, here comes the Assistant Pastor, who was to preach while Pastor was on vacation. My mouth fell open, because I did not know they allowed woman to be ordained. Needless to say, my wife and I walked out of the Church immediately, never to return.

Hurl your stones if you must, be we believe in Going by what the BIBLE says.
 
benhur said:
Never be offended by the Word of God.
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We know the Truth of God's Word is an offense to those who do not believe it. Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand.... Jesus said, "There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words: The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."
 
VCO said:
Is not the Bible TIMELESS, meaning it remains the SAME AUTHORITY, and does not change with the times?

The Church is to CONFORM to the Holy Scriptures, and NOT the Holy Scriptures need to Conform to Society.

Yes, our SOCIETY has what they call Political Correctness, where women are accepted, and it involves everything.

Now it is seeps into the Church in the form of Women Pastors and Elders. God assigned separate roles for

women and men in the Church, however, HE considers them to be CO-EQUALLY IMPORTANCE, but not function.

In Our LOVE for GOD, we must be obedient to everything. So it is a question of obedience, are we going to

be obedient to GOD, or do we bow down to Society. My Church does not allow women to Teach in the assembly,

ONLY because GOD SAID SO.


1 Timothy 2:11-12 (HCSB)
11 A woman should learn in silence with full submission.
12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (NKJV)
1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NKJV)
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.


I amazes me, how many people want to harp of being obedient to the WORD, but not those verses. They say that changed when Society Changed. NO, . . . THAT IS HOW GOD SAID IT WAS TO BE DONE.


My Wife and I were starting to go to an Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a few weeks later, here comes the Assistant Pastor, who was to preach while Pastor was on vacation. My mouth fell open, because I did not know they allowed woman to be ordained. Needless to say, my wife and I walked out of the Church immediately, never to return.

Hurl your stones if you must, be we believe in Going by what the BIBLE says.
Click to expand...

We live in a society where a lot of men arent stepping up to be spiritual leaders beHIND the pulpit or in the homes...so scripture might not have changed but people n society have..
 
benhur said:
Fruit is not works. Good works produces fruit. I know this is a brand new concept to try to absorb, but God wants you to be engaged in good works as a new person in the Holy Spirit in order to produce fruit for his kingdom.

The word fruit refers to several things, but the number one thing it refers to is souls. The saving of souls is the fruit that God is looking for the most. He wants everyone to have a chance at being saved, and so much of our good works goes into missionary work, which includes proselyting for new converts, and fellowshiping our own congregations to bring people back to Jesus Christ. This is the great work that the Lord is engaged in, and this is the great work that we should be engaged in.

So don't be offended at my words, they are also the words of your Lord Jesus Christ, straight out of the bible. Now you may interpret it different than me, but that is our right to believe as we see fit, and as the Holy Spirit witnesses to me. I have grown up in the church being taught that we are new people in the Lord through our belief in Jesus and our baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that we are to be engaged in the work of the Lord. If we slack off and are too distracted by our busy worldly life and will not get engaged in the work of the Lord, then there are consequences to our actions and decisions. And I believe the bible confirms that belief.
Click to expand...
Fruit is works, It is why we work, to produce the fruit of our labor (work) and why we will be rewarded for these works.
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Fruit is works, It is why we work, to produce the fruit of our labor (work) and why we will be rewarded for these works.
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Galatians 5:13-26


Life by the Spirit

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

Footnotes:
 
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Jewel5712 said:
Galatians 5:13-26


Life by the Spirit

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."

Footnotes:
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If we do those things to maintain salvation or keep from losing salvation. We are attempting to be saved by works.

That is the argument being waged. Some will say our salvation is dependent of how much fruit we produce. Or us continuing to produce fruit and not stoping.
 
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dcontroversal said:
Amen....his street organ dancing monkey gospel devalues the work of Christ.....my bible tells me we are kept by the power of God through faith.....not by works!
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How can you say that I am proud of my works? You don't know me and what works I do or apparently for what reason.

I have gone through the same process that you have gone through. I believed as a young person and I have had a baptism of the Holy Spirit just like you. I have been saved, just like you. But I am not ashamed to be engaged in the work of the Lord. I believe that is necessary to be engaged in his great work in order to be saved. AT least 50% of Christians believe the same thing. If you do not believe this, thats OK, you get to believe what you wish. That does not mean that I will never be able to shake your hand or go to church with you, or call you my brother. It just means that we believe differently about how we are saved.

You should not have a problem with my salvation process, simply because I want to be engaged in the work of the Lord, since I am already saved by your beliefs, what is it to you if I also believe that I must be engaged in the work of the Lord? What a horrible belief that I should be engaged in the great work of the Lord.
 
benhur said:
How can you say that I am proud of my works? You don't know me and what works I do or apparently for what reason.

I have gone through the same process that you have gone through. I believed as a young person and I have had a baptism of the Holy Spirit just like you. I have been saved, just like you. But I am not ashamed to be engaged in the work of the Lord. I believe that is necessary to be engaged in his great work in order to be saved. AT least 50% of Christians believe the same thing. If you do not believe this, thats OK, you get to believe what you wish. That does not mean that I will never be able to shake your hand or go to church with you, or call you my brother. It just means that we believe differently about how we are saved.

You should not have a problem with my salvation process, simply because I want to be engaged in the work of the Lord, since I am already saved by your beliefs, what is it to you if I also believe that I must be engaged in the work of the Lord? What a horrible belief that I should be engaged in the great work of the Lord.
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Because you say you works will maitnain your salvation. Knowinng if you stop them, you will lose your salvation.

Thats called boasting.
 
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benhur said:
It just means that we believe differently about how we are saved.

You should not have a problem with my salvation process, simply because I want to be engaged in the work of the Lord, since I am already saved by your beliefs, what is it to you if I also believe that I must be engaged in the work of the Lord? What a horrible belief that I should be engaged in the great work of the Lord.
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I notice you use the word saved in it's past tense form. How is that possible when it can still be lost?
 
eternally-gratefull said:
If we do those things to maintain salvation or keep from losing salvation. We are attempting to be saved by works.

That is the argument being waged. Some will say our salvation is dependent of how much fruit we produce. Or us continuing to produce fruit and not stoping.
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It is not some saying it, it is Jesus saying it. If you stop producing fruit, Jesus will prune or purge you to produce more fruit. If you do not respond to the Holy Spirit's guidance, there will be consequences to your actions.
 
benhur said:
It is not some saying it, it is Jesus saying it. If you stop producing fruit, Jesus will prune or purge you to produce more fruit. If you do not respond to the Holy Spirit's guidance, there will be consequences to your actions.
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The purging of the branch has been explained many times . . . have you not seen it? or do you simply reject any notion but your own? You may say you have Bible . . . but the devil has the Bible also -- and quotes it. "Yea, hath God said?"
 
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benhur said:
It is not some saying it, it is Jesus saying it. If you stop producing fruit, Jesus will prune or purge you to produce more fruit. If you do not respond to the Holy Spirit's guidance, there will be consequences to your actions.
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It does not matter who says it

You can not say we are saved by grace and not works (we can not earn our salvation) and then claim we have to work to remain saved (earning our salvation) because we are contradicting ourself.

Pruning is an aspect of cutting dead parts out of a branch to make it able to produce fruit. It is not the branch being destroyed it is the bad parts of the branch beingn cut out. It is what God does to his people.. I have experienced it. You claim to be a christian, have you not experienced this in your life?
 
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