Till the Son of man be come

[notuptome]

What is your view of the op verse, what does it mean?

What do you want it to mean?

It is prophecy to Israel spoken to the disciples at Christs first advent. At the close of the tribulation the disciples, the 144,000, will have gone to all the cities of Israel and proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom.

Again what do you want it to mean?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

oh yeah, one more thing (lol):

--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" are described in Matt24:4-8/Mt13:5-8/Lk21:8-11 [though not so called in Lk21:8-11, just described, in same way as the others]

--so verse 12 (Lk21) is saying (essentially) that "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [BEFORE the beginning of birth pangs just described]" the 70ad events must take place (vv.12-24a)

...hence, the SEQUENCE mentioned in previous post

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 John 4:3 states, "every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ HAS COME [perfect participle (or, 'having come')] in the flesh is not of God..."

...but 2 John 1:7 states, "those not confessing Jesus Christ COMING [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

 

[Locutus]

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

What are your thoughts on Jesus coming before the disciples went to all the cities of Israel?

It's a true statement that he would come in the time of the preaching of His then current disciples, not some 144 K Jews of 1900 years later and counting - he was speaking to them (listed below) not broadcasting 2000 years into the future:

(Mat 10:5 KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

"These twelve Jesus sent" are those that would "not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come", not some pretend Jew/disciples according to the deluded dispensational doctrine hundreds of years after Jesus spoke.

(Mat 10:2 KJV) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 John 4:3 states, "every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ HAS COME [perfect participle (or, 'having come')] in the flesh is not of God..."

...but 2 John 1:7 states, "those not confessing Jesus Christ COMING [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Oops, I forgot to add the other part where I had wanted to show the comparison of the "present participle" in 2Jn1:7 ("COMING") with that of a similar "coming" (different thing "coming" tho) in 1Th1:10, which says,

"... the [One] delivering us [out-]from the wrath COMING [present participle]"


So in 2Jn1:7 the wording is "Jesus Christ COMING in flesh" (which is not identical to saying "HAVING COME in the flesh," as 1Jn4:3 had stated) conveys a slightly differing meaning (akin to that of 1Th1:10, which is a still-coming-in-the-future thing).

We ought not to be "not confessing" this (re: Jesus, 2Jn1:7).

 

[Endoscopy]

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

What are your thoughts on Jesus coming before the disciples went to all the cities of Israel?

First, I detest single verses. They need to be shown in context. Notice all of the information around that verse. It gives it much more meaning.

Second, KJV is flawed by the changes in the English language since 1611. Example is the commandment "Thou shalt not kill." Modern translations say "You shall not murder." in 1611 kill meant deliberate murder. Today you can accidentally kill someone in a car accident caused by equipment failure (brakes failing). Nothing deliberate or ignoring the the laws about driving.

Matthew 10 NIV
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

The AMPC translation gives even more detail.

 

[Endoscopy]

This site gives my chrome browser on my android fits. It at times bounces around, backs out of the thread, and other time consuming issues. Thus causing me problems with the 5 minute rule. I just fixed a typo and almost didn't make it this time.

 

[Endoscopy]

Oops, I forgot to add the other part where I had wanted to show the comparison of the "present participle" in 2Jn1:7 ("COMING") with that of a similar "coming" (different thing "coming" tho) in 1Th1:10, which says,

"... the [One] delivering us [out-]from the wrath COMING [present participle]"


So in 2Jn1:7 the wording is "Jesus Christ COMING in flesh" (which is not identical to saying "HAVING COME in the flesh," as 1Jn4:3 had stated) conveys a slightly differing meaning (akin to that of 1Th1:10, which is a still-coming-in-the-future thing).

We ought not to be "not confessing" this (re: Jesus, 2Jn1:7).

Personally I use biblegateway.com on my smartphone as my Bible. With that I can look up book and chapter and look at the verses. Then I can switch between translations easily. Then I can compare how each words it. I usually bounce between KJV, NIV, ESV, and AMPC. AMPC gives in parentheses extra translations of words with multiple meanings. Here is John 3:16. Notice how believe in is expanded.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Personally I use biblegateway.com on my smartphone as my Bible. With that I can look up book and chapter and look at the verses. Then I can switch between translations easily. Then I can compare how each words it. I usually bounce between KJV, NIV, ESV, and AMPC. AMPC gives in parentheses extra translations of words with multiple meanings. Here is John 3:16. Notice how believe in is expanded.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

I like it and use it sometimes, too, but (and if I recall correctly) it doesn't really give/show the particular form of any given word (in any given verse; in the Greek), and whether it is in, say, "perfect tense, participle" or "present tense, participle," as in the examples I supplied in my previous posts. So for that, I use other sites that DO supply this.


The point of my other post was to show that 1Jn4:3 is " HAVING COME [perfect participle] in flesh," whereas 2Jn1:7 says "COMING [present participle] in flesh"... a distinct meaning (that is no longer speaking of a past event).

 

[garee]

I like it and use it sometimes, too, but (and if I recall correctly) it doesn't really give/show the particular form of any given word (in any given verse; in the Greek), and whether it is in, say, "perfect tense, participle" or "present tense, participle," as in the examples I supplied in my previous posts. So for that, I use other sites that DO supply this.


The point of my other post was to show that 1Jn4:3 is " HAVING COME [perfect participle] in flesh," whereas 2Jn1:7 says "COMING [present participle] in flesh"... a distinct meaning (that is no longer speaking of a past event).

I would agree " HAVING COME [perfect participle] in flesh," There are not two promises as to another demonstration of the unseen Spirit pouring out his Spirit .God is not a man as us never was never could be. Having come in the flesh flows better knowing he will not come again forever more.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet "now henceforth" know we him no more.2 Corinthians 5:16

 

[Endoscopy]

I like it and use it sometimes, too, but (and if I recall correctly) it doesn't really give/show the particular form of any given word (in any given verse; in the Greek), and whether it is in, say, "perfect tense, participle" or "present tense, participle," as in the examples I supplied in my previous posts. So for that, I use other sites that DO supply this.


The point of my other post was to show that 1Jn4:3 is " HAVING COME [perfect participle] in flesh," whereas 2Jn1:7 says "COMING [present participle] in flesh"... a distinct meaning (that is no longer speaking of a past event).

The problem is hardly anyone is going to study Hebrew, Aramaic, and Judean Greek languages to be able to go to the original languages to decipher the original language texts. Also books that do this are expensive. AMPC is cumbersome but includes all of the different meanings of the original language. Thus gives a normal lay person the ability to see the original language concepts.

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
I looked at a site that discussed the Greek verb tenses. Some of them don't translate well into English. That is where the AMPC helps.

 

[Noose]

Jesus is the Holy spirit/ The spirit of Christ is the Holy spirit. His second coming is not a one time event in the future but an every day event as long as we have new believers, it what is referred to as, He is and was and is to come the Almighty- meaning that He is always coming.

Jesus came before they completed all the towns in Jerusalem as per the many promises:

John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

 

[Hevosmies]

It's a true statement that he would come in the time of the preaching of His then current disciples, not some 144 K Jews of 1900 years later and counting - he was speaking to them (listed below) not broadcasting 2000 years into the future:

(Mat 10:5 KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

"These twelve Jesus sent" are those that would "not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come", not some pretend Jew/disciples according to the deluded dispensational doctrine hundreds of years after Jesus spoke.

(Mat 10:2 KJV) Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

I confess that its the natural reading, anyone reading that, or even Matthew 24 in the 1st century would conclude that Jesus is returning in this generation. (Our generation, in the 1st century).

However this clearly did not happen, so now we are stuck making up all kinds of reasons for why it did not happen and what it really means. Sad but true.

I can guess from this post that you are a preterist? Well unfortunately you still cry, and death is still present, therefore we are not in the new heaven and new earth. Spoiler alert: Jesus has not returned yet.

 

[Noose]

I confess that its the natural reading, anyone reading that, or even Matthew 24 in the 1st century would conclude that Jesus is returning in this generation. (Our generation, in the 1st century).

However this clearly did not happen, so now we are stuck making up all kinds of reasons for why it did not happen and what it really means. Sad but true.

I can guess from this post that you are a preterist? Well unfortunately you still cry, and death is still present, therefore we are not in the new heaven and new earth. Spoiler alert: Jesus has not returned yet.

Nope. You are the one making reasons as to why your theology doesn't align with scripture. Jesus confirmed and affirmed several times about His coming:

Matt 26:64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” e

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there aresome standing here who will not taste death untilthey see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, fleeto the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all thetowns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

John 16:16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

John 14: 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

All these can not mean 2000 years later no matter how much you try to twist.

 

[Endoscopy]

Jesus is the Holy spirit/ The spirit of Christ is the Holy spirit. His second coming is not a one time event in the future but an every day event as long as we have new believers, it what is referred to as, He is and was and is to come the Almighty- meaning that He is always coming.

Jesus came before they completed all the towns in Jerusalem as per the many promises:

John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

Your theology is extremely flawed. First Jesus made the following statement about his second coming.

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Isaiah 24 AMPC

21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

Second he made the following statement about what he will do with the saved people and notice what verse 30 states. "I and the Father are one." Thus Jesus is God incarnate. This is basic Christian theology so why don't you know this? Are you that ignorant or a wolf in sheep's clothing?

OSAS
John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

 

[trofimus]

I confess that its the natural reading, anyone reading that, or even Matthew 24 in the 1st century would conclude that Jesus is returning in this generation. (Our generation, in the 1st century).

However this clearly did not happen, so now we are stuck making up all kinds of reasons for why it did not happen and what it really means. Sad but true.

I can guess from this post that you are a preterist? Well unfortunately you still cry, and death is still present, therefore we are not in the new heaven and new earth. Spoiler alert: Jesus has not returned yet.

Well, but something really, really important happened - in the first century, the age of Israel has ended. Temple was destroyed. Jews expelled from their country for 2,000 years.

So, maybe its the thing the first generation was to witness. And we just do not understand it, because we read the text through our eyes.

 

[Noose]

Your theology is extremely flawed. First Jesus made the following statement about his second coming.

Matthew 24 NIV
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Isaiah 24 AMPC

21 And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth.
22 And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned.
23 Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, Who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.

Second he made the following statement about what he will do with the saved people and notice what verse 30 states. "I and the Father are one." Thus Jesus is God incarnate. This is basic Christian theology so why don't you know this? Are you that ignorant or a wolf in sheep's clothing?

OSAS
John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

You have quoted verses that you don't have a clue as to what they mean.
The following passage by Paul, is in line with what you are trying to say:

1 Thess 4: 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So why is Paul counting himself amongst those that are alive during Christ's coming??

Your theology is extremely flawed.

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
You ignore the fact that God doesn't track time the way people do. There is a verse that states to God a thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years. You go tell God he is wrong. The Bible is the Word of God!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nope. You are the one making reasons as to why your theology doesn't align with scripture. Jesus confirmed and affirmed several times about His coming:

Matt 26:64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” e

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there aresome standing here who will not taste death untilthey see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, fleeto the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all thetowns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

John 16:16Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

John 14: 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be c in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

All these can not mean 2000 years later no matter how much you try to twist.

John 16:16, which you list among these others, refers to the very day of His Resurrection (ON "FIRSTFRUITS" Lev23:10-12) when He had "[ACTIVELY] ascended" that very day (that which He told MM), and come back [THAT VERY EVENING] for them to "see and handle" and "REJOICE/JOY"; not the 40-d later ascension in Acts 1 ("go up [passive]," which was VISIBLE [and the manner in which He will also "return" to the earth at the time of His Second Coming to the earth]; completely distinct). No one else saw Him after that (after His resurrection) but carefully chosen witnesses (who were simply to "tell").