RED HEIFER CALF BORN LAST WEEK IN ISRAEL!!

[Hevosmies]

What? Where do people come up with these things? I have never heard such a thing.. not saying SOME do not think this, there are different sects of people who believe God has done things different for different people (dispensations - and no I am not saying people are saved different, salvationhas been the same for all people by grace through faith in all ages) but saying all believe this is wrong!

Can people stop for a minute and listen to what people actually say instead of assuming they know? And i am asking both sides, even i have been guilty, we need to stop

If you believe we have always been saved the same way then by definition you dont really qualify as a dispensationalist.
They contend that there are different gospels and different plans of salvation for different dispensations. Gospel of the kingdom for when Jesus was on earth, and in the tribulation, gospel of grace now in the church age. And in teh O.T salvation by WORKS yes thats what they teach. Check out Gene Kim, Robert Breaker and others who teach this.

The Romans to Philemon thing I have heard in their own sermons and their own books.. Thats where i "come up with these things" these are well known facts. This is part of the "rightly dividing" the word of truth.

If you have never heard of this I question if you have ever heard or read dispensational preaching? I realize there are differences in every system of eschatology but this is very well known stuff and I didn't just make it up... This is verifiable information

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you believe we have always been saved the same way then by definition you dont really qualify as a dispensationalist.

So your saying Scofield Got it wrong, because thats what he believed.

They contend that there are different gospels and different plans of salvation for different dispensations. Gospel of the kingdom for when Jesus was on earth, and in the tribulation, gospel of grace now in the church age. And in teh O.T salvation by WORKS yes thats what they teach. Check out Gene Kim, Robert Breaker and others who teach this.

This just goes to prove you do not understand dispensationalsim, Sadly like many others you have been told what they believe, and instead of studying to find out. You assumed they were right.

While some believe jews were saved by law, and will return to law in the tribulation. That is just a small part of what dispensationalsim believes. Even scofield did not believe this, (I will be honest, I thought he did, because that is how I was brought up. But when I actually looked at his words, i found they were not true.) if you study you will see.

The Romans to Philemon thing I have heard in their own sermons and their own books.. Thats where i "come up with these things" these are well known facts. This is part of the "rightly dividing" the word of truth.

I have been a dispensationalist since I was first introduced in the last days theology as a young child. I have been members of many churches, and read many books, and I have never heard this saying.

If you have never heard of this I question if you have ever heard or read dispensational preaching? I realize there are differences in every system of eschatology but this is very well known stuff and I didn't just make it up... This is verifiable information

Lol.. Well known? Or well known to you? Because this is what you were taught?

 

[Hevosmies]

So your saying Scofield Got it wrong, because thats what he believed.




This just goes to prove you do not understand dispensationalsim, Sadly like many others you have been told what they believe, and instead of studying to find out. You assumed they were right.

While some believe jews were saved by law, and will return to law in the tribulation. That is just a small part of what dispensationalsim believes. Even scofield did not believe this, (I will be honest, I thought he did, because that is how I was brought up. But when I actually looked at his words, i found they were not true.) if you study you will see.


I have been a dispensationalist since I was first introduced in the last days theology as a young child. I have been members of many churches, and read many books, and I have never heard this saying.



Lol.. Well known? Or well known to you? Because this is what you were taught?

Okay now you are just denying reality. I gave you a couple of dispensational preachers who teach that. Do i now need to post quotes from their books and post their sermons? SERIOUSLY!?

I know not all dispensationalists believe the same thing. I already stated that, you dont believe it ok fine, that does NOT MEAN that what i stated was false. I have heard them (DISPIES) say that with their own mouths. I take it at that.

Facts dont care about your feelings, as the saying goes. Facts are MANY MANY dispensationalists do teach EXACTLY what I laid down.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay now you are just denying reality. I gave you a couple of dispensational preachers who teach that. Do i now need to post quotes from their books and post their sermons? SERIOUSLY!?

I know not all dispensationalists believe the same thing. I already stated that, you dont believe it ok fine, that does NOT MEAN that what i stated was false. I have heard them (DISPIES) say that with their own mouths. I take it at that.

Facts dont care about your feelings, as the saying goes. Facts are MANY MANY dispensationalists do teach EXACTLY what I laid down.

You said we all believe the same thing, Your wrong, I did not deny reality, You are my friend, To put a whole group of people under a belief, which MOST do not believe, is just wrong. Period.

It does not take much time to look, I do not have much time right now. But I easily found this, from the scofield institute, from people who follow scofields doctrines. And believe as he did.
Dispensationalism and salvation’

From scofield institute.
http://scofieldinstitute.org/dispensationalism-and-the-gospel/

First, we must deal with the suggestion that Dispensationalism teaches different methods of salvation in different dispensations. We cannot speak for every person who has ever claimed to be a Dispensationalist. Perhaps some have stated of implied such a thing. But this does not represent the mainstream of Dispensational thought, and has not for many years. The words of H.A. Ironside, a well known and much loved Bible teacher, should be sufficient to state the mainline Dispensational viewpoint. Here is what Ironside said prior to 1938 (i.e. over 60 years ago!):


Let one point be absolutely clear: No one was ever saved in any dispensation on any other ground than the finished work of Christ. In all the ages before the cross, God justified men by faith; in all the years since, men have been justified in exactly the same way. Adam believed God and was clothed with coats of skin, a picture of one becoming the righteousness of God in Christ. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Nevertheless, afterwards he was circumcised; but that circumcision, the apostle tells us, was simply a seal of the righteousness he had by faith. And throughout all the Old Testament dispensation, however legalistic Jews may have observed the ordinance of circumcision and thought of it as having in itself some saving virtue, it still remained in God’s sight, as in the beginning, only a seal, where there was genuine faith, of that righteousness which He imputed. (Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, p57,58)


Needless to say, the person who claims that Dispensationalism teaches different methods of salvation in different dispensations completely misunderstands the point of Dispensational doctrine! Dispensationalism is not about the method of God’s salvation, but the methods of God’s testing of man. In each Dispensation, God gives a different set of instructions. The instructions are for pleasing and obeying God, not for obtaining salvation. In each dispensation, man proves that whatever the circumstances, he is unable to please or obey God.

 

[Hevosmies]

You said we all believe the same thing, Your wrong, I did not deny reality, You are my friend, To put a whole group of people under a belief, which MOST do not believe, is just wrong. Period.

It does not take much time to look, I do not have much time right now. But I easily found this, from the scofield institute, from people who follow scofields doctrines. And believe as he did.
Dispensationalism and salvation’

From scofield institute.
http://scofieldinstitute.org/dispensationalism-and-the-gospel/

First, we must deal with the suggestion that Dispensationalism teaches different methods of salvation in different dispensations. We cannot speak for every person who has ever claimed to be a Dispensationalist. Perhaps some have stated of implied such a thing. But this does not represent the mainstream of Dispensational thought, and has not for many years. The words of H.A. Ironside, a well known and much loved Bible teacher, should be sufficient to state the mainline Dispensational viewpoint. Here is what Ironside said prior to 1938 (i.e. over 60 years ago!):


Let one point be absolutely clear: No one was ever saved in any dispensation on any other ground than the finished work of Christ. In all the ages before the cross, God justified men by faith; in all the years since, men have been justified in exactly the same way. Adam believed God and was clothed with coats of skin, a picture of one becoming the righteousness of God in Christ. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Nevertheless, afterwards he was circumcised; but that circumcision, the apostle tells us, was simply a seal of the righteousness he had by faith. And throughout all the Old Testament dispensation, however legalistic Jews may have observed the ordinance of circumcision and thought of it as having in itself some saving virtue, it still remained in God’s sight, as in the beginning, only a seal, where there was genuine faith, of that righteousness which He imputed. (Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, p57,58)


Needless to say, the person who claims that Dispensationalism teaches different methods of salvation in different dispensations completely misunderstands the point of Dispensational doctrine! Dispensationalism is not about the method of God’s salvation, but the methods of God’s testing of man. In each Dispensation, God gives a different set of instructions. The instructions are for pleasing and obeying God, not for obtaining salvation. In each dispensation, man proves that whatever the circumstances, he is unable to please or obey God.

I agree with all of that. And I know of the different views within dispensationalism. Its just like every other system. Covenant theology has the same thing, not EVERYONE in the movement agrees with each other. Even the quote mentions "perhaps some have stated or implied such a thing".

But I stand corrected bro, I SHOULD HAVE said "some" dispensationalists,, I apologize for that and hope you accept my apology. I was writing and was very surprised by Angela's view that the rapture was "invented" by Darby (I DISAGREE) and other (imo) strange ideas. I should have spoken more accurately, I will try to improve on that in the future

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Taken from C.I Scofields book, rightly dividing the word of truth, written in 1896..

The Seven Dispensations
C. I. Scofield

The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the creation of Adam to the "new heaven and a new earth" of Rev. 21: 1) into seven unequal periods, usually called dispensations (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called ages (Eph. 2:7) and days, as in "day of the Lord."

These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment, marking his utter failure in every dispensation. Five of these dispensations, or periods of time, have been fulfilled; we are living in the sixth, probably toward its close, and have before us the seventh, and last: the millennium.


If Scofield believed each dispensation was a test, and in each, man failed (thus demanding the need for Grace) How can one say he taught people were saved under different gospels in each dispensation?

People need to study what others actually believe, and not just blindly follow what you have been taught, or read from other people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree with all of that. And I know of the different views within dispensationalism. Its just like every other system. Covenant theology has the same thing, not EVERYONE in the movement agrees with each other. Even the quote mentions "perhaps some have stated or implied such a thing".

But I stand corrected bro, I SHOULD HAVE said "some" dispensationalists,, I apologize for that and hope you accept my apology. I was writing and was very surprised by Angela's view that the rapture was "invented" by Darby (I DISAGREE) and other (imo) strange ideas. I should have spoken more accurately, I will try to improve on that in the future

Thank you. Yes, I can agree with you here, Some do teach this, Dispensationalsim, like Angela’s amil view, have different groups which believes different things.. Not all of them can be correct.

Forgive me for being frustrated, I love this topic. But sadly can not ba a part of it sadly in most christian groups because of this heated, unqualified view of what others believe and the refusal to just listen and understand without blinded opinions.

 

[Angela53510]

Is it the word 'rapture' that you disagree with? You even admitted earlier that: "My point? In the atmosphere, not the heavens! Still on earth."
That is what I believe, in the clouds, clouds are not in outer space. And i am NOT NOT NOT a dispensationalist. NO!
John Gill was not a dispensationalist, and look at what he has to say:

"in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they will be carried up to him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received him, and in it he was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of heaven:"

If you read the entire commentary on that verse, John Gill believes that at that time (the second coming time) we will be changed into glorified bodies, and we go upto the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and then return with Him to earth. Do you disagree with that?

I truly hope this is just a misunderstanding of terms and its the TERM rapture you disagree with, not catching up to the clouds, because if that is what you disagree with you are just arguing with Paul at that point, in which case the conversation is over.

Be that as it may, I still want to apologize for being too rude/crude, I hope this was a misunderstanding. And once again: I am NOT a dispensationalist! They believe only Romans to Philemon is for the church, I believe the words of Jesus are of utmost importance!

The problem with Latin, is that it reflects a very different theology than Greek, the language the Bible was written in. In fact, Latin dramatically affected the doctrine of the Trinity, from the time of Augustine on.

For example, in Greek, God is one ousia, three hypostasus. Latin translated hypostasis into personae, for persons. In fact personae, means:

“A persona (plural personae or personas), in the word's everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. The word is derived from Latin, where it originally referred to a theatrical mask.”

This is NOT a good word to use for the three persons of the Trinity IMHO. And certainly, a “mask” was never what hypostasis meant, when referring to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The connotations take this fundamental doctrine far from the Bible, and influenced the concept of God until literally the 19th century!

That is why I do not like to overlay Latin terms on anything theological! And “The Rapture” is a noun, comes from a verb, harpazio in Greek, which does not come with the baggage of the Rapture.

I do agree with you, Christians are not going anywhere, except briefly. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists HAVE co-opted this Latin term to mean “taken away secretly to heaven.” To use the term, for me, is to open the doors to radical Dispensationalism. Like it or not!

Further, this is one of the linchpins of Dispensationalism. To cite it, using Latin, is to leave behind biblical eschatology. Which is why I do strongly object to it! Then you get the stuff and nonsense of this OP, heralding something totally irrelevant to Biblical theology. Wrong, in fact!

Further, as I have said before, any strong biblical doctrine, must be reiterated more than once! Trotting our one verse as a proof test, is the big reason we have so many heresies! And I am not just speaking of eschatology.

I am also sorry if I was rude. That was not my intention. I just get so frustrated by folk theology, which simply is hermeneutically unsound!


PS please forgive any spelling mistakes, I am writing on a bumpy road high in the Rocky Mountains!!

 

[Angela53510]

Taken from C.I Scofields book, rightly dividing the word of truth, written in 1896..

The Seven Dispensations
C. I. Scofield

The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the creation of Adam to the "new heaven and a new earth" of Rev. 21: 1) into seven unequal periods, usually called dispensations (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called ages (Eph. 2:7) and days, as in "day of the Lord."

These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God's method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of man's responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment, marking his utter failure in every dispensation. Five of these dispensations, or periods of time, have been fulfilled; we are living in the sixth, probably toward its close, and have before us the seventh, and last: the millennium.


If Scofield believed each dispensation was a test, and in each, man failed (thus demanding the need for Grace) How can one say he taught people were saved under different gospels in each dispensation?

People need to study what others actually believe, and not just blindly follow what you have been taught, or read from other people.

This is a man made doctrine, with proof texts to support it. We have no idea how long this one will last. In fact, this spawns the nonsense of looking for end times under every nook and cranny, people like Hagee, predicting over and over the end is near, based on blood moons or whatever, and the end not coming. And then making the return of Christ look like a lie.

No different than the Catholic Church and its Crusades, conquering Jerusalem, because it was 1000 years since the time of Christ! And yet, that lesson has not been learning, people still predicting a concrete millennium, instead of understanding the symbolism which pervades the entire book of Revelation.

 

[SpoonJuly]

The problem with Latin, is that it reflects a very different theology than Greek, the language the Bible was written in. In fact, Latin dramatically affected the doctrine of the Trinity, from the time of Augustine on.

For example, in Greek, God is one ousia, three hypostasus. Latin translated hypostasis into personae, for persons. In fact personae, means:

“A persona (plural personae or personas), in the word's everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. The word is derived from Latin, where it originally referred to a theatrical mask.”

This is NOT a good word to use for the three persons of the Trinity IMHO. And certainly, a “mask” was never what hypostasis meant, when referring to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The connotations take this fundamental doctrine far from the Bible, and influenced the concept of God until literally the 19th century!

That is why I do not like to overlay Latin terms on anything theological! And “The Rapture” is a noun, comes from a verb, harpazio in Greek, which does not come with the baggage of the Rapture.

I do agree with you, Christians are not going anywhere, except briefly. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists HAVE co-opted this Latin term to mean “taken away secretly to heaven.” To use the term, for me, is to open the doors to radical Dispensationalism. Like it or not!

Further, this is one of the linchpins of Dispensationalism. To cite it, using Latin, is to leave behind biblical eschatology. Which is why I do strongly object to it! Then you get the stuff and nonsense of this OP, heralding something totally irrelevant to Biblical theology. Wrong, in fact!

Further, as I have said before, any strong biblical doctrine, must be reiterated more than once! Trotting our one verse as a proof test, is the big reason we have so many heresies! And I am not just speaking of eschatology.

I am also sorry if I was rude. That was not my intention. I just get so frustrated by folk theology, which simply is hermeneutically unsound!


PS please forgive any spelling mistakes, I am writing on a bumpy road high in the Rocky Mountains!!

Not meaning to be rude, but "folk theology" has served a great majority of saints to at least some understanding of Scripture.
Very few have access to you educated folks teaching down through the ages.

 

[Hevosmies]

people like Hagee, predicting over and over the end is near, based on blood moons or whatever, and the end not coming. And then making the return of Christ look like a lie.

This is a great concern for me as well. The people who are making false prophecies and predictions constantly are bringing Christ's name to shame and making us look like idiots in front of the world.
It also makes christians look untrustworthy, which is a terrible thing.

Btw we got another false rapture prediction coming up on 27th or 26th of september... Oy vey!

I respectfully disagree with there not being a concrete millenium, HOWEVER because curiosity often gets the cat and im always open-minded to new ways of looking at things: Could you explain to me your eschatology view?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a man made doctrine, with proof texts to support it. We have no idea how long this one will last. In fact, this spawns the nonsense of looking for end times under every nook and cranny, people like Hagee, predicting over and over the end is near, based on blood moons or whatever, and the end not coming. And then making the return of Christ look like a lie.

No different than the Catholic Church and its Crusades, conquering Jerusalem, because it was 1000 years since the time of Christ! And yet, that lesson has not been learning, people still predicting a concrete millennium, instead of understanding the symbolism which pervades the entire book of Revelation.

The point was to prove scofield did not teach what you and others claimed he taught. A different gospel in different denominations.

Whether you agree with him or not is beside the point.

 

[iamsoandso]

The problem with Latin, is that it reflects a very different theology than Greek, the language the Bible was written in. In fact, Latin dramatically affected the doctrine of the Trinity, from the time of Augustine on.

For example, in Greek, God is one ousia, three hypostasus. Latin translated hypostasis into personae, for persons. In fact personae, means:

“A persona (plural personae or personas), in the word's everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. The word is derived from Latin, where it originally referred to a theatrical mask.”

This is NOT a good word to use for the three persons of the Trinity IMHO. And certainly, a “mask” was never what hypostasis meant, when referring to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The connotations take this fundamental doctrine far from the Bible, and influenced the concept of God until literally the 19th century!

That is why I do not like to overlay Latin terms on anything theological! And “The Rapture” is a noun, comes from a verb, harpazio in Greek, which does not come with the baggage of the Rapture.

I do agree with you, Christians are not going anywhere, except briefly. Unfortunately, Dispensationalists HAVE co-opted this Latin term to mean “taken away secretly to heaven.” To use the term, for me, is to open the doors to radical Dispensationalism. Like it or not!

Further, this is one of the linchpins of Dispensationalism. To cite it, using Latin, is to leave behind biblical eschatology. Which is why I do strongly object to it! Then you get the stuff and nonsense of this OP, heralding something totally irrelevant to Biblical theology. Wrong, in fact!

Further, as I have said before, any strong biblical doctrine, must be reiterated more than once! Trotting our one verse as a proof test, is the big reason we have so many heresies! And I am not just speaking of eschatology.

I am also sorry if I was rude. That was not my intention. I just get so frustrated by folk theology, which simply is hermeneutically unsound!


PS please forgive any spelling mistakes, I am writing on a bumpy road high in the Rocky Mountains!!

Since you are on the subject though the eta(upper case Alexandrian Greek text type), third row(looks like the upper case "H") what word would you think this would be the last letter of?...(it's Nomina Sacra) I think,lol why is that it seems to have a line above it(barely seen) in text. I mean no offense in this it's just in that in our bibles the Greek word before this is not suppose to end with eta,lol. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/i-need-help-with-this-math-problem.52562/page-4

 

[garee]

Okay now you are just denying reality. I gave you a couple of dispensational preachers who teach that. Do i now need to post quotes from their books and post their sermons? SERIOUSLY!?

I know not all dispensationalists believe the same thing. I already stated that, you dont believe it ok fine, that does NOT MEAN that what i stated was false. I have heard them (DISPIES) say that with their own mouths. I take it at that.

Facts dont care about your feelings, as the saying goes. Facts are MANY MANY dispensationalists do teach EXACTLY what I laid down.

Yes Gods works the same no matter what time period. Purifying the hearts of Jew and Gentile alike by a work of His faith as that which comes from hearing God not seen.

 

[Angela53510]

This is a great concern for me as well. The people who are making false prophecies and predictions constantly are bringing Christ's name to shame and making us look like idiots in front of the world.
It also makes christians look untrustworthy, which is a terrible thing.

Btw we got another false rapture prediction coming up on 27th or 26th of september... Oy vey!

I respectfully disagree with there not being a concrete millenium, HOWEVER because curiosity often gets the cat and im always open-minded to new ways of looking at things: Could you explain to me your eschatology view?

Well, I am amillennial, in terms of Rev 20 and the millennium. In Hebrew, (remember John was a Hebrew, much of his Greek was filled will Hebraisms, and Hebrew word order) 1000 is the highest number. In essence, it was symbolism for “a very high number.”

I believe in the inaugurated reign of Christ, and the now and the not yet. I believe Jesus Christ is coming again, once, in his timing, and the Father’s.

I also believe that eschatology is irrelevant if it makes you focus on minutae, instead of knowing and serving God. I believe eschatology is vital, if we are keeping Jesus in focus, remembering he could return at any moment, but it may be a thousand more years.

Right now, I am focusing on the Trinity and that God is a relational God. That is much more important to me than any educated or even uneducated guess about end times.

In fact, I’m not really sure why I am on this thread. My choice is to “occupy till he comes.” That should be everyone’s choice, is my thought!

 

[fredoheaven]

The English word “Rapture” originated in the “Late 16th century (in the sense ‘seizing and carrying off’): from obsolete French, or from medieval Latin raptura ‘seizing’, partly influenced by rapt.” https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rapture

This perhaps, has the same word meaning used in some Greek lexicons and the Greek word "harpazo" as used in 1 Thes. 4:17; 2 Cor. 12:2; 2 Cor. 12:4. Still the connection to the word Rapture would be bliss or happiness and even comfort for we will ever be with the Lord and to which Paul wrote to the Thessalonians.

1 Thes. 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

God bless...

 

[trofimus]

"in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they will be carried up to him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received him, and in it he was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of heaven:"

Sounds like some kind of alien space ships theology ;-)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People need to remember, the rapture, or the believers being “caught up” to be with the Lord is not a comming, We meet Jesus in the heaven, he does not meet us on the earth. The second comming is when Jesus comes and sets his feet on the mount of olves. At which point th emount is split in two. And satan and th ebeast are captured and evil is prety much destroyed

The rapture is an even that no one knows the time, It will come as a theif ie there will be no signs or things whihc show he is comming, Where as the second comming, We are not only told of birth pangs, but specific events which will lead up to his second comming, ie, he will not come as a theif, the world will know.. In fact. The believers suffering will have hope in knowing jesus will return soon.

No one in the OT understood there would be two comings.. 1 for sin, and one for setting up his earthly reign. In the same manner, I believe many do not understand there will be two events, One where Jesus comes and ressurects his people. And the other where he comes and fulfills his OT prophecies as messiah and King.

 

[Hevosmies]

People need to remember, the rapture, or the believers being “caught up” to be with the Lord is not a comming, We meet Jesus in the heaven, he does not meet us on the earth. The second comming is when Jesus comes and sets his feet on the mount of olves. At which point th emount is split in two. And satan and th ebeast are captured and evil is prety much destroyed

The rapture is an even that no one knows the time, It will come as a theif ie there will be no signs or things whihc show he is comming, Where as the second comming, We are not only told of birth pangs, but specific events which will lead up to his second comming, ie, he will not come as a theif, the world will know.. In fact. The believers suffering will have hope in knowing jesus will return soon.

No one in the OT understood there would be two comings.. 1 for sin, and one for setting up his earthly reign. In the same manner, I believe many do not understand there will be two events, One where Jesus comes and ressurects his people. And the other where he comes and fulfills his OT prophecies as messiah and King.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 "us who remain to the Coming of the Lord" Many pre-tribbers say that is coming FOR the church and then second advent is coming WiTH the church.

Btw can I ask you what you PERSONALLY believe about the words of Jesus vs Paul? Meaning: Do you believe the words of Jesus are also for the Church today, and as valuable as Paul's?
Also I want to know if you believe that Church and Israel are separate entities?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Thessalonians 4:15 "us who remain to the Coming of the Lord" Many pre-tribbers say that is coming FOR the church and then second advent is coming WiTH the church.

Btw can I ask you what you PERSONALLY believe about the words of Jesus vs Paul? Meaning: Do you believe the words of Jesus are also for the Church today, and as valuable as Paul's?
Also I want to know if you believe that Church and Israel are separate entities?

every word in scripture has meaning to todays believer, God gave us his love letter for a reason. It all has application.

1 Thess 4 is written to the church, and has nothing to do with the world. It is about the rapture of the church, not the setting up of his kingdom in Jerusalem. where he will rule with a rod of Iron.