A place for rapture questions

[Wall]

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

Death is swallowed up in victory at the 1Cor15 event

ISAIAH’S “IN THAT DAY”

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

IN THAT DAY= Death is swallowed up in victory

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and YE SHALL BE GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. [13] And it shall come to pass IN THAT DAY, that the GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

IN THAT DAY= Last trumpet {1Cor.15} will be blown and Gods people gathered {in the twinkling of an eye}

ISAIAH 2 [11] The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted IN THAT DAY. [12] For THE DAY OF THE LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

IN THAT DAY= The Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 2 [19] And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. [20] IN THAT DAY a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; [21] To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, WHEN HE ARISETH TO SHAKE TERRIBLY THE EARTH.

IN THAT DAY= Yup. Surely the Day of the Lord

 

[Wall]

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

At the 1Cor15 event “death is swallowed up in victory”. I think everyone can agree this happens only once.

ISAIAH 25 [8] HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will WIPE AWAY TEARS from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said IN THAT DAY, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

In above scripture "death is swallowed up in victory". Both scriptures, speaking of same event. But in Isaiah 25 you also find that at that time “God shall wipe away all tears”. This to will happen but once.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

No more tears. When? When death is swallowed up in victory {1Cor.15v54} and at the same time Jesus dwells with man in the new Jerusalem {the 1000yr period of rest}

REVELATION 7 [13]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?[14]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[15]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: AND HE THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM.[16]They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[17]For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes.

No more tears. No one will be raptured off to heaven. When we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we meet the Lord in the air and its off to the kingdom rest with Jesus. So now we know where we are going at the so called “rapture” event.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

For centuries that was the central belief of the Church. It's the pre-trib camp that perverted it and changed it to the entire tribulation period. The only reason they did is because they had to otherwise it exposed a major contradiction. Rather than accept the truth, they just fabricate more stuff and pervert God's word.

The day of the Lord ARRIVES to commence and unfold upon the earth when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (that is a judgment setting there in Rev4-5!!); Isaiah 3:13; Lamentations 2:3-4 (paralleling precisely 2Th2:7b-8a), etc. It [the TIME PERIOD/DOTL] ARRIVES as a "thief IN THE NIGHT" whereas Jesus Himself arrives "as a thief." [NO "IN THE NIGHT" accompanies the phrase, or passages, referring to Jesus' own arrival/return to the earth, Rev16:15-16, etc] . The DOTL STARTS with the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]" of MANY MORE to follow after that. That's the nature of "birth PANGS [plural]," they START with the FIRST ONE [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' (SEAL #1); See also Dan7:7 "IN THE NIGHT"; and Dan9:27a[26] / 2Th2:9a "whose COMING"]

 

[dcontroversal]

OK. What about all those Rapturist that say we are going to heaven. Where do you find that in scripture?

We meet the Lord in the Air....and then return with him for his 1000 year reign on this planet......!

 

[DudleyDorite]

I wish you could write like normal people. Too many of these( ), these /, and these, ] [.

I knew a girl who after accepting Christ abandoned him because of pre-trib. She had 3 teenage children and she didn't want to be gone while they were left behind.

Pre-trib, it surprises me that people refuse to see the fabrication process.

 

[Wall]

We meet the Lord in the Air....and then return with him for his 1000 year reign on this planet......!

yup

EZEKIEL 37 [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND:

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I wish you could write like normal people. Too many of these( ), these /, and these, ] [.

The reason I do that is because people often have presuppositions of definitions of words and phrases, and I can't get my point across to them because of this conversational barrier. Hence, I attempt to clarify as I respond

 

[Wall]

The reason I do that is because people often have presuppositions of definitions of words and phrases, and I can't get my point across to them because of this conversational barrier. Hence, I attempt to clarify as I respond

It aint workin

 

[Wall]

We meet the Lord in the Air....and then return with him for his 1000 year reign on this planet......!

yup

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Goin to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}. Not one scripture found saying the bride is headin for heaven

 

[Karraster]

A question for pre-tribbers. Is it right to use the Luke 16:19-31 story as proof texts for eternal torment?

I ask because regardless if you believe it a real event or a parable is beside the point given the word "hell" in this passage is the Greek work Hades... is the Hebrew Sheol -all of which refer to the first death and not the second death.
So why is it used? hmm? If I am wrong here please correct me. My study material says hell is the grave, a temporary place to await resurrection and not to be confused with the lake of fire.

 

[DudleyDorite]

The reason I do that is because people often have presuppositions of definitions of words and phrases, and I can't get my point across to them because of this conversational barrier. Hence, I attempt to clarify as I respond

I know, it's a common problem among pre-tribbers since they've changed so many things to make it fit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The Day of the Lord" (per Scripture, not per Amil-teachings' re-defining, etc) INVOLVES ALL of the following:

--STARTS when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Lam2:3-4 [2Th2:7b-8a]; Rev4-5--this is a JUDGMENT SETTING); opens "1st SEAL" [it only EVER unfolds and transpires ON THE EARTH--that is, the EFFECTS of His opening the SEALS which are "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus referred to in the Olivet Discourse]


--the 70th-Wk/7-yrs (seals, trumpets, vials) upon the earth--"DARK/IN THE NIGHT"

--Christ's Second Coming to the earth--"SUN of righteousness ARISE" [comp. Rev19:19/16:14-16 (His "return") with Isa24:21-22; etc]

--and the 1000-yr promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom--"reign... GLORIOUSLY" [Isa24:23, and others]


ALL of that is "the Day of the Lord" (and its related phrase "IN THAT DAY" when found in the same context). It is a TIME PERIOD (always and ONLY "on the earth"), rather than merely the 24-hr day of His "return" to the earth.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

A question for pre-tribbers. Is it right to use the Luke 16:19-31 story as proof texts for eternal torment?

I ask because regardless if you believe it a real event or a parable is beside the point given the word "hell" in this passage is the Greek work Hades... is the Hebrew Sheol -all of which refer to the first death and not the second death.
So why is it used? hmm? If I am wrong here please correct me. My study material says hell is the grave, a temporary place to await resurrection and not to be confused with the lake of fire.

Good question.

When one compares the verses I supplied, particularly where Rev19:19/16:14-16 parallels Isa24:21-22 [23], and we see that verse 22 states, [speaking of "the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth"] "22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished" we see that the underlined refers to that temporary holding place, and then "after many days" [the MK] "shall they be punished" (the eternal separation, in the "lake of fire' Rev20:10-15).


Even so, the first one is said to involve "torment' ("I am tormented in this flame")

 

[Nehemiah6]

My study material says hell is the grave, a temporary place to await resurrection and not to be confused with the lake of fire.

It is quite unfortunate that the KJV translators used the word "grave" for Sheol. They would have been better off to simply transliterate that Hebrew word (which corresponds to Hades, and again one which should have been transliterated).

Here's the reason why Sheol/Hades cannot be the grave. Graves are dug into the earth so that dead bodies may be placed there until they turn to dust. But human beings consist of bodies, souls, and spirits. And Scripture is quite clear that those who die go to Sheol/Hades, which means that their souls and spirits are (or were) in Sheol/Hades. However, after the resurrection of Christ, the souls and spirits (which are really inseparable from each other) of the OT saints were taken by Christ to Heaven (the New Jerusalem to be precise)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Jobs tellin the truth

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Like i said Jobs right. He says his change will come on the Day of the Lord and 1Thes.4 is descibing the Day of the Lord. Quite simple. No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Sorry guys

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,"

First of all, "the day of the Lord" is not a day in length, but is that last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27). It is also referred to as "the hour of trial" which again, is not an hour in length, but is referring to that period of wrath which will take place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The gathering of the church will take place prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord, which will be initiated by the opening of the first seal and which is represented by the rider on the white horse, the antichrist.

The church cannot and will not go through the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation."

In the scripture above, Paul says "we are not in darkness so that this day (of wrath) should not overtake us." Therefore, how would that day not overtake believers if we were to go through the same wrath as the wicked? Your interpretation of putting the gathering of the church at the end of the seven years would subject us to the same punishment as the wicked. what would be the difference of that time of wrath not overtaking believers and it overtaking those who are in darkness if we all suffer the same wrath? The answer is found in what Paul just wrote about prior to I Thes.5:9, which was the detailed account of the gathering of the church in I Thes.4:13-18. Believers will not suffer God's wrath, because the Lord is going to descend to the atmosphere and call up the church, dead and living.

For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.

"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath." - Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - I Thes.5:9

 

[Absolutely]

Well, we will disagree, because (as I said) the text in Daniel 12:13 says [to Daniel], "But go thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest [that is, in death], and stand in thy lot [that is, be physically/bodily resurrected to stand again on the earth] at the end of the days [that is, at the end of the days referred to in that context (vv.1,6-7), which parallels other passages such as Dan7:25[27] and Rev12:6,14, time-wise]".

Those "many" who resurrected when Jesus did (Matt27:53) went into the holy city [a type of future earthly events] and appeared to many... not where you might suggest they did.

I believe there are 3 Harvests, not just one as you do.

The bible depicts two sectors where the dead resided pre cross
Paradise and hell. The rich man and Lazarus.
We are told Jesus took captivity captive upon his descending at his death.
Paradise is now empty. All the residency resurrected by his power and now populate heaven.
First resurrection has 4 parts.
This is a given because Jesus and his elect are firstfruits.
(Another given follows that we now lack main,corners, and gleanings.)
The book of Ruth depicts the scenario.

 

[Absolutely]

Jobs tellin the truth

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Like i said Jobs right. He says his change will come on the Day of the Lord and 1Thes.4 is descibing the Day of the Lord. Quite simple. No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Sorry guys

Pretribs also believe this.
Is Jesus a lion or a lamb?
Both right?
Truth,Jesus,heaven....all mutifacited

 

[Absolutely]

Jobs tellin the truth

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Like i said Jobs right. He says his change will come on the Day of the Lord and 1Thes.4 is descibing the Day of the Lord. Quite simple. No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Sorry guys

Your entire position hinges on the trump of God being the last trump
And mat 24 31 being the rapture.
Way too shaky.
You can not possibly believe that voids all the pretrib verses.
Jesus himself vividly depicts the gathering of the Bride , the rapture.
NEVER does he depict it as post trib
NEVER

 

[Karraster]

Good question.

When one compares the verses I supplied, particularly where Rev19:19/16:14-16 parallels Isa24:21-22 [23], and we see that verse 22 states, [speaking of "the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth"] "22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished" we see that the underlined refers to that temporary holding place, and then "after many days" [the MK] "shall they be punished" (the eternal separation, in the "lake of fire' Rev20:10-15).


Even so, the first one is said to involve "torment' ("I am tormented in this flame")

Thanks for the reply. To be clear, you think the Lazarus story supports eternal torment?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thanks for the reply. To be clear, you think the Lazarus story supports eternal torment?

As I understand it, the "a certain rich man" in this story [whether actual people or representative, as in parable] is showing the place of "the unrighteous/unsaved dead" (upon death). From there, they only go on to the lake of fire (eternal separation from God) at the GWTj (after the 1000-yr MK), not anywhere else (example: a "get out of jail free" card, or the like). I think I pointed out in another thread, that Rev20:10 states (of the three specific persons named there, the devil, the beast, and the false prophet), "and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase elsewhere refers to forever/eternity/eternal--Gal1:5, Phil4:20, Rev1:18, etc).