Where do believers go after death?

[JohnRH]

It seems to me like you are reaching. Of course he wouldn't always use parables when talking to outsiders, but those that he didn't use parables for would be the outsiders who he knew would be saved. Those who wouldn't be would not be spoken to in other than parables. If some that were to be unsaved heard something that was not a parable, I find it obvious that Jesus would know that they would not be saved under any circumstance and would not be concerned about it.

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Jesus didn't mention "subcategories" of outsiders, future-saved outsiders & permanently unsaved outsiders, in this passage. He said "them that are without".

 

[JohnRH]

ok where in the bible does God promise Abraham heaven?
We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today.

Of course he's dead - physically. No one's disputing that. You're quoting the unbelieving Jews in John 8:52. But look at what Jesus said in that same passage:

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

When, then, is he to inherit the promises?

After the resurrection, when his body is joined with his soul; which is currently alive and conscious, as the historical account of Luke 16:19-31 shows.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[sozomen]

I highly doubt. Peter says he will spare no effort in 'teaching' believers even after his death with the same zeal that he had before he died.
I have always believed that believers that die have their souls resurrected into heaven and heaven is no other place other than the hearts of living believers. It is from here that they cheer us on but also judge us.

I understand how you could feel this way and believe it. Nobody wants to completely cease to exist. However, it should be remembered that the Bible is of JewishHebrew origin. Over time it became textualized by Latin Orthodox ideas. Even in this state of translation the Bible is the only book that tells a person they will die. Granted, this statement is at odds with most Christians who read the Bible. An example of trying to reach a common ground could be by saying; Nobody has a secular right to impose a doctrine based on interpretation on another person. A correctly rendered interpretation is a different matter. It is this point where many do not research.
In Genesis 1:30-KJV the word "life" is translated into the word 'hephesh' and in the margin or rendered in the text "soul". Looking closely this word is also applied to creatures in verse 21 and verse 30. The doctrine of the immortality of the souls is not found here. It is always applied to animals and not once to a man. Therefore, even using a Catholicised rendering(which most Bibles we purchase are these days) I do not find that the word 'soul' means an immortal entity. The Bible states "And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground. Therefore, that which was formed from the dust of the ground was the man - not a body into which the man was put. The Scripture does state that man was created a 'living soul' , it does not say the man was created an "immortal soul." Immediate Heven going upon death or a staying place in the etheral sky palace was taught by the Egyptians and was brought to Greece by Plato who visited Egypt. This idea became embedded in Roman belief systems and mixed into Christianity by the Anti-Novationalists who later became the Orthodox. The only way to believe in the immotality of the soul from an English Bible is to try to find a translation that appears to promote this idea but even that, when researched, will be found wanting of the meaning.

 

[PennEd]

Of course he's dead - physically. No one's disputing that. You're quoting the unbelieving Jews in John 8:52. But look at what Jesus said in that same passage:

49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.


After the resurrection, when his body is joined with his soul; which is currently alive and conscious, as the historical account of Luke 16:19-31 shows.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

You should keep going to John 8:56

Jesus says that Abraham SAW HIS DAY AND REJOICED!

When did that happen if Abraham isn't alive in Heaven to see it?

 

[Noose]

I understand how you could feel this way and believe it. Nobody wants to completely cease to exist. However, it should be remembered that the Bible is of JewishHebrew origin. Over time it became textualized by Latin Orthodox ideas. Even in this state of translation the Bible is the only book that tells a person they will die. Granted, this statement is at odds with most Christians who read the Bible. An example of trying to reach a common ground could be by saying; Nobody has a secular right to impose a doctrine based on interpretation on another person. A correctly rendered interpretation is a different matter. It is this point where many do not research.
In Genesis 1:30-KJV the word "life" is translated into the word 'hephesh' and in the margin or rendered in the text "soul". Looking closely this word is also applied to creatures in verse 21 and verse 30. The doctrine of the immortality of the souls is not found here. It is always applied to animals and not once to a man. Therefore, even using a Catholicised rendering(which most Bibles we purchase are these days) I do not find that the word 'soul' means an immortal entity. The Bible states "And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground. Therefore, that which was formed from the dust of the ground was the man - not a body into which the man was put. The Scripture does state that man was created a 'living soul' , it does not say the man was created an "immortal soul." Immediate Heven going upon death or a staying place in the etheral sky palace was taught by the Egyptians and was brought to Greece by Plato who visited Egypt. This idea became embedded in Roman belief systems and mixed into Christianity by the Anti-Novationalists who later became the Orthodox. The only way to believe in the immotality of the soul from an English Bible is to try to find a translation that appears to promote this idea but even that, when researched, will be found wanting of the meaning.

You still did not explain how Jonah could pray from the realm of the dead and if the thief was soul sleeping in paradise that particular day as was promised by Jesus. These are complete stories and not just ideas that come from English translations.

 

[sozomen]

Good questions; Thank you. I kept explanations brief for brevity`s sake. With all humility and due respect - If complete Biblical stories are what you require with translated renderings in order to understand the point, no problem. Please, If you would be kind enough to provide what translation you are using. I will do your homework to a point using ideas based on firm rendering. Not preferences of doctrinal traditions of men. Kindly meant for the sake of clarity and love in Christ, that all men would come together in him.
The Book of Jonah RSV - Chapter 2:1"Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, " Does not say Jonah was dead in the belly of the sea mammal or any place else in the Book of Jonah. But it does read like Jonah had time to reflect on what God asked of him and the reward awaiting him if he succeeded. As in a vision of the resurrection of the body " RSV Chapter 2:6 at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me for ever; yet thou didst bring up my life from the Pit, O Lord my God. Jonah was a Christ-type. Obvious from the text, really.
The phrase you use `soul sleeping in Paradise` and such comments applied to the thief on the cross is considered a fact even after proof is shown that the scriptures teach the unconsciousness of man in death. This is curious...... It is easy to say this text means so and so, when researching it has no such meaning. In order to do this a person must be neutral minded or without prejudice in favor of the popular theory of man`s disembodied conscious existence in death, and before a conclusion is reached as to the meaning of the words of our Lord to the thief. What was the request of the thief? Did the thief die inside that very day? Did our Savior go to heaven that very day, or did he really die? If his soul is considered apart from himself, did his soul go to heaven, and if so, how would I understand the scripture that says "He poured out his soul unto death"-Isaiah 53:12 ? In other words how could his soul How could his soul be in heaven or supposing paradise to be some other place than heaven, how could his soul be in paradise, when it is declared that his soul was not left in hell(hades or grave)? Acts 2:31. It is plain that the scriptures teach Christ died, that he was buried, and that he rose from the dead(1 Cor. 15:55). In view of this, how could he be in heaven on that day he spake the words in question to the thief?
Question: Did Christ die? The popular answer would be to error - "His soul did not die," thus denying the Word of God, which declares that "He poured out his soul unto death." If I press the question again and understanding that you believe in the immortality of the soul you would be forced to answer - "His body died;" an answer which we both know means, No, Christ did not die, only his body or the house he dwelt in died, but he did not. This is the denial of the death of Christ; to say that the body he inhabited died is to say that something else other than himself died. The scripture cannot be divided. So, logically it will be seen that the theory that would send Christ to heaven, or to any other place of conscious existence with the thief the very day he uttered the promise necessitates a denial of his death. So, this matter resolves itself into the question of 'which is wrong'; the theory that says Christ that very day was alive with the thief in paradise, or the Scriptures that declare that he died? "The Scripture cannot be broken;" therefore the theory must be wrong. Nothing that nullifies the plain statements of God`s Word, that Christ really died, and that the same Christ that died was buried, and that if he had not been raised there would have been no living Christ(see 1 Cor 15). Scripture states that Christ did not go to heaven the day He uttered the promise to the thief is a positive proof. Three days afterwards, upon his resurrection from the tomb, he met Mary, and said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"(John 20:17.) You may readily see that the theory that sends Christ to heaven with the thief the day of his death is a flat contradiction of the Lord`s words uttered at his resurrection three days after his death. The "I" who spoke to the thief is surely the same "I" who addressed Mary. How could this "I" say on one day I will be in heaven this day, and three days after say I am not yet ascended to heaven? MYSTERY! They say MYSTERY! When the fact is that the theory by which they misrepresent our Savior, whose words are infallible, is, of course wrong; and with that theory weighed in the balances of reasoning and found wanting what could any thinking person do but through it aside.
To understand the Savior`s answer to the thief we must keep in view the latters request. He did not say Lord remember me when thou goest to heaven; but "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
Note: The Bible teaches a hereafter, not a thereafter like the Egyptians did.
Was this request in accord with what our Lord had taught his disciples to hope for? It certainly was; in the parable of the nobleman(Luke 19) He had shown that he would go to heaven and return; that during his absence the duty of his disciples would be not to expect to follow him, but to "Occupy till I come;" and that it would be when he would return, "Having received the kingdom," he would call his servants before him for judgment, reward and punishment according to their works. In unmistakable language he declared, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." (Matt 25:31.); and those on His right hand at that time he will say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared," etc. Referring to this time, and in full accordance with this teaching, the thief asked, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" - the vert time when, as the Apostle Paul says, "Christ shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom". (2Tim. 4:1.)
Rev. 11:15 answers when and that the Earth will be restored. Further read Isa.51:3 and Zech 14:9.
Now, as to the form of the words in the promise as it appears in our translation(s), it must not be forgotten that the translators were biased in favor of the popular heaven-going sky-kingdom theory, and may have therefore sincerely but mistakenly have placed words in the form in which we find them in the Common Version and now many other translations. Punctuation is of comparatively recent date, and translators often differ in their use of it as well as in the positions of the various words composing a sentence. As different morphologies used and differing translation including the Vaticanus 1209 of which the Diaglott is a copy/ In word for word translation the promise to the thief reads as follows: "Indeed I say to thee, to-day with me thou shalt be in paradise." In the text of the same translation it reads "Indeed I say to thee, This day thou shalt be with me in paradise." That is, this day referred to by the thief`s request, namely, the day when Christ would come into his kingdom. I would recommend particular attention to the fact to the fact that here it is "thou shalt" instead of "shalt thou," as in the King James translation. The text is therefore in harmony with the facts and truths of Scripture you have asked attention to. There is a similar case located in Zech.9:12.
Christ excused and forgave an habitual thief and so our Father in Heaven is mercifully kind towards us. As to the degree of the thief's crime the Savior was a better judge than the Roman government was. This ended the life of a man of sorrow with an extrodinary manifestation and exercise of Divine mercy of which he was and is the embodiment.

 

[Noose]

Good questions; Thank you.

That was very painful to read. Too many words, less substance.

Jonah 2 (RSV):
1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the belly of the fish,
2 saying, "I called to the LORD, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice.
3 For thou didst cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood was round about me; all thy waves and thy billows passed over me.
4 Then I said, 'I am cast out from thy presence; how shall I again look upon thy holy temple?'
5 The waters closed in over me, the deep was round about me; weeds were wrapped about my head
6 at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me for ever; yet thou didst bring up my life from the Pit, O LORD my God.

Jonah died and prayed from sheol. What he is describing, is sheol and not the belly of the fish and he was not comparing the temple of God to the belly of the fish but sheol. His life was lifted from sheol (pit) and not from the belly of the fish.

David is not asking to be saved from a fish but from death (sheol):

Psalms 103:4who redeems your life from the pit,and crowns you with loving devotion and compassion,
Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my life from Sheol, for He will surely take me to Himself. Selah

The thief on the cross.

You are trying to use the whole bible to discredit the promise that Jesus gave to the thief. Direct instructions/promises/commands are things you can not go against.

"..let there be light.." - so was there light? yes or no?
"...come and i will make you fishers of men..." - so were they made fishers of men? yes or no?
"....today, you will be with me in paradise..." - so were they in paradise? yes or no?

If you have no answers for other queries, you need to ask and it will be shown you, but don't try to say Jesus did not mean what He said. You have failed in both attempts to clarify soul sleep.

 

[sozomen]

That was very painful to read. Too many words, less substance.

Jonah 2 (RSV):
1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the belly of the fish,
2 saying, "I called to the LORD, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice.
3 For thou didst cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood was round about me; all thy waves and thy billows passed over me.
4 Then I said, 'I am cast out from thy presence; how shall I again look upon thy holy temple?'
5 The waters closed in over me, the deep was round about me; weeds were wrapped about my head
6 at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me for ever; yet thou didst bring up my life from the Pit, O LORD my God.

Jonah died and prayed from sheol. What he is describing, is sheol and not the belly of the fish and he was not comparing the temple of God to the belly of the fish but sheol. His life was lifted from sheol (pit) and not from the belly of the fish.

David is not asking to be saved from a fish but from death (sheol):

Psalms 103:4who redeems your life from the pit,and crowns you with loving devotion and compassion,
Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my life from Sheol, for He will surely take me to Himself. Selah

The thief on the cross.

You are trying to use the whole bible to discredit the promise that Jesus gave to the thief. Direct instructions/promises/commands are things you can not go against.

"..let there be light.." - so was there light? yes or no?
"...come and i will make you fishers of men..." - so were they made fishers of men? yes or no?
"....today, you will be with me in paradise..." - so were they in paradise? yes or no?

If you have no answers for other queries, you need to ask and it will be shown you, but don't try to say Jesus did not mean what He said. You have failed in both attempts to clarify soul sleep.

Sure I failed. Soul-sleep is not a Biblical phrase. This doctrine is not in the Bible. Biblically speaking there is no such thing. The doctrine I did apply is Biblical and not an implication.
As for the thief issue you asked for complete Bible stories. I did not really labor too hard, I could have dug further. Sorry if it was to long.
I have been this path before. Obviously you know I am not a Trinitarian, nor do I believe in the immortality of the soul. The word soul means mortal body. I have checked every passage in many translation to prove the immortal condition and cannot.

 

[Noose]

Sure I failed. Soul-sleep is not a Biblical phrase. This doctrine is not in the Bible. Biblically speaking there is no such thing. The doctrine I did apply is Biblical and not an implication.
As for the thief issue you asked for complete Bible stories. I did not really labor too hard, I could have dug further. Sorry if it was to long.
I have been this path before. Obviously you know I am not a Trinitarian, nor do I believe in the immortality of the soul. The word soul means mortal body. I have checked every passage in many translation to prove the immortal condition and cannot.

And which doctrine did you apply?
A soul is different from the body (flesh & blood)

1 Thess 5: 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, andmay your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matt 10: 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill thebody but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[sozomen]

And which doctrine did you apply?
A soul is different from the body (flesh & blood)

1 Thess 5: 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, andmay your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matt 10: 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill thebody but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Thess 5: 23
It is inferred from this verse that one has a soul and spirit.
1. The words, "spirit" ("pneuma") and "soul" ("psuche") are used in
a variety of ways in Scripture. However, they are never referred to
as conscious immortal entities within man.
2. It is likely that in the passage under consideration by "spirit" is
meant "mind"2, and by "soul" is meant "life". The expression, "spirit
and soul and body" is synonymous with the whole person. Consider
the following:
a) Spirit, soul and body are synonymous with the whole person
since the preceding words, "And the very God of peace sanctify
you wholly" imply a parallelism between the two expressions.
b) The word "spirit" is used elsewhere by the Apostle Paul as synonymous
with the "mind". For example:
i) "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit . . . "
(1 Cor. 5:3).

Matt 10: 28
This passage is cited by Pentecostals and Evangelicals as the
foundation proof that man is really an indestructible soul
clothed with an earthly body.
1. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy1 both body and soul in hell"
is proof that the soul is destructible and therefore, not immortal.
2. Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell ("Gehenna"—the
garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem), this indicates that the
soul is as destructible as the body since both can be destroyed in the
same place. Is this what the immortal soulist wants from this passage?
3. What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"? Simply, "Fear not (for
an instant) them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy you
utterly and finally." For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in
God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection
the life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).
4. The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the
meaning of "life". In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For
whosoever shall save his life ["psuche"] shall lose it: and whosoever
will lose his life ["psuche"] for my sake shall find it."2 (In the R.S.V.
"psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man,
if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life.") The similarity of
context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".
Reference are:
1 It is sometimes argued that "destroy" means to "afflict" or "torment" but not to annihilate.
The Greek word, "apollu" translated "destroy" means to "destroy utterly". Ethelbert
W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament,
(London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957), p. 220. There is not the slightest suggestion
of torment in any of the places where "apollu" is translated "destroy" in the A.V.
(e.g. Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41. 22:7; 27:20.).
2 Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference,
the result would be absurd.

 

[Noose]

1 Thess 5: 23
It is inferred from this verse that one has a soul and spirit.
1. The words, "spirit" ("pneuma") and "soul" ("psuche") are used in
a variety of ways in Scripture. However, they are never referred to
as conscious immortal entities within man.
2. It is likely that in the passage under consideration by "spirit" is
meant "mind"2, and by "soul" is meant "life". The expression, "spirit
and soul and body" is synonymous with the whole person. Consider
the following:
a) Spirit, soul and body are synonymous with the whole person
since the preceding words, "And the very God of peace sanctify
you wholly" imply a parallelism between the two expressions.
b) The word "spirit" is used elsewhere by the Apostle Paul as synonymous
with the "mind". For example:
i) "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit . . . "
(1 Cor. 5:3).

Matt 10: 28
This passage is cited by Pentecostals and Evangelicals as the
foundation proof that man is really an indestructible soul
clothed with an earthly body.
1. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy1 both body and soul in hell"
is proof that the soul is destructible and therefore, not immortal.
2. Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell ("Gehenna"—the
garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem), this indicates that the
soul is as destructible as the body since both can be destroyed in the
same place. Is this what the immortal soulist wants from this passage?
3. What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"? Simply, "Fear not (for
an instant) them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy you
utterly and finally." For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in
God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection
the life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).
4. The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the
meaning of "life". In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For
whosoever shall save his life ["psuche"] shall lose it: and whosoever
will lose his life ["psuche"] for my sake shall find it."2 (In the R.S.V.
"psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man,
if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life.") The similarity of
context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".
Reference are:
1 It is sometimes argued that "destroy" means to "afflict" or "torment" but not to annihilate.
The Greek word, "apollu" translated "destroy" means to "destroy utterly". Ethelbert
W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament,
(London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957), p. 220. There is not the slightest suggestion
of torment in any of the places where "apollu" is translated "destroy" in the A.V.
(e.g. Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41. 22:7; 27:20.).
2 Obviously if the words "immortal soul" were substituted for "life" in this reference,
the result would be absurd.

Again you are using so many words to dismiss what the bible says and still unfruitful. I'm only beginning to understand that you believe the soul dies with the body- but do you have scriptural proof? by proof, i don't mean what you understand or your own interpretation of the words spirit & soul but is there an example or an explanation of how the soul dies with the body?

I have shown and i can continue showing you numerous passages that souls resurrect and are very conscious even after death. I have always known the spirit means the mind and the soul means self so that even after death, during judgement, the person is fully aware of themselves.

 

[sozomen]

Again you are using so many words to dismiss what the bible says and still unfruitful. I'm only beginning to understand that you believe the soul dies with the body- but do you have scriptural proof? by proof, i don't mean what you understand or your own interpretation of the words spirit & soul but is there an example or an explanation of how the soul dies with the body?

I have shown and i can continue showing you numerous passages that souls resurrect and are very conscious even after death. I have always known the spirit means the mind and the soul means self so that even after death, during judgement, the person is fully aware of themselves.

This will be painful - I can do this again but as far as being fruitful I do not think that would happen, experience has shown that once a person has made up their mind concerning doctrine it is very rare that they will change their mind. So, I would doubt that no matter what I showed you, you would be re-baptised because of what you would read from me. It is what it is. However. I do this for practice sake in the fundamentals.
Even with proof most just choose to ignore the facts in favor of popular doctrine.
A person can find out what the word soul means using any good concordance keyed to the Bible of their choice. As I am sure you know. So I am mystified as to the stubborn application of any doctrine that teaches otherwise. Even when using a concordance written by a believer in the dogma of the immortal-soul the meaning is clearly the opposite of popular doctrines. You sound well read and therefore so, when I read the history of Herodotus` volumes of his travels he states "The Egyptians say that Ceres (the god of corn) and Bacchus (the god of wine), hold chief sway in the infernal regions; and the Egyptians, also, were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal." and again in Mosheim`s History, Vol. 1, p.86 is stated "Its promoters argued that known doctrine of the Platonic School, which was also accepted by Origen and his disciples, that the divine nature was diffused through all human souls."
In view of these statements it is clear that this doctrine of the immortality of the soul is clearly a man made pagan dogma, and that it was fused with Orthodox Christianity.
Even with the originators of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, it was a matter of expediency rather than on of truth. Gibbon, though, inadvertently in error in certain parts is correct when he states "With the people" - the ignorant masses - "it was equally true, with the philosophers equally false, and with statesman equally necessary." This idea was called "The Pious Fraud." I could give much more proof texts but I trust this is quite enough as it shows that you actually believe that Jesus Christ and his Apostles actually taught this Egyptian dogma as part and parcel of the truth. As for unsavory, unfruitfulness, I would say the point is mute. You have chosen to ignore this truth and apply and teach this dogma to others by your own words using God`s words as what you say are a proof which are not. This system of thinking is clearly an abomination.
Perhaps you would share with me how you manage to reconcile these opposing views. In point of this evidence you have not proved anything except your clear unawareness of the historical background of your belief-system which I cannot call a religion, or your stubbornness in admitting the facts. If you read this far.....
Biblically speaking the word soul is the Hebrew word 'nephesh', of the Old Testament. This word occurs about 700 times, and is also rendered soul 471 times, life and living about 150 times; and the same word is rendered a man, a person, self, they, me, him, anyone, breath, heart, mind, appetite, the body, (dead or alive,) lust, creature, and even a beast; The word is applied to beasts 28 times and to every creeping thing.The Greek word psuche in the N.T. corresponds to nephesh of the O.T. It occurs 105 times and is rendered soul 59 times, and life 40 times. The same word is also rendered as mind, us, you, heart, heartily, and is twice applied to the beasts that perish. Psuchikos, an adjective derived from psuche, occurs 6 times, and is translated natural and sensual; it is properly translated animal in modern translations. It may be worthy to notice that in all the 700 times which nephesh occurs, and the 105 times of psuche, not once is the word immortal or immortality or deathlesness or never-dying or soul-sleeping found in connection as qualifying the terms.
You asked for Scriptural proof that souls die?
Josh. 10:28; Judges 16:16; Job 7:15; Psa.33:19, Psa. 78:50; Isa. 53:12; Ezek. 13:19, Ezek 18:4 and verse 27; Matt. 26:38; Jas. 5:20; Rev. 16:3.
Souls are destructible and destroyed:
Psa. 35:17, Psa. 63:9; Acts 3:23.
This is by no means exhaustive but I can easily provide you with Biblical proof purposeful mistranslation that have been left which only seem to prove your position and are easily exposed. I can provide Scriptural proof that souls go to and are delivered pit or grave, etc.
The term "living soul" is used by some practitioners of your belief system located in Gen 2:7 where it is said "man became a living soul which is rendered 'nephesh chayiah' which is a general term to express all creatures endued with animal life in any of its infinitely varied gradations. I find no proof of your position in maintaining that a 'soul' is immortal other than an Egyptian dogma. Respectfully speaking.

 

[sozomen]

errata - So, I would doubt that no matter what I showed you, you would not be re-baptised because of what you would read from me.
You said - "I'm only beginning to understand that you believe the soul dies with the body- " My point is the soul is the body,i.e. nephesh.

 

[sozomen]

We have the word 'spirit' lowercase. And the word "Spirit" uppercase. I would contest that this word in either font casing is an "IT". It is the power by which God operates. Spirit is translated in the O.T. as neshamah and ruach. meaning given lexicographers is - wind, breath, life, mind, and intellect. No where in the Bible does it mean an immortal intellect of man, or an immortal entity. I can prove this Biblically speaking to an exhaustive degree. This will be painful as well.

 

[JohnRH]

Good questions; Thank you. I kept explanations brief for brevity`s sake. With all humility and due respect - If complete Biblical stories are what you require with translated renderings in order to understand the point, no problem. Please, If you would be kind enough to provide what translation you are using. I will do your homework to a point using ideas based on firm rendering. Not preferences of doctrinal traditions of men. Kindly meant for the sake of clarity and love in Christ, that all men would come together in him.
The Book of Jonah RSV - Chapter 2:1"Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, " Does not say Jonah was dead in the belly of the sea mammal or any place else in the Book of Jonah. But it does read like Jonah had time to reflect on what God asked of him and the reward awaiting him if he succeeded. As in a vision of the resurrection of the body " RSV Chapter 2:6 at the roots of the mountains. I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me for ever; yet thou didst bring up my life from the Pit, O Lord my God. Jonah was a Christ-type. Obvious from the text, really.
The phrase you use `soul sleeping in Paradise` and such comments applied to the thief on the cross is considered a fact even after proof is shown that the scriptures teach the unconsciousness of man in death. This is curious...... It is easy to say this text means so and so, when researching it has no such meaning. In order to do this a person must be neutral minded or without prejudice in favor of the popular theory of man`s disembodied conscious existence in death, and before a conclusion is reached as to the meaning of the words of our Lord to the thief. What was the request of the thief? Did the thief die inside that very day? Did our Savior go to heaven that very day, or did he really die? If his soul is considered apart from himself, did his soul go to heaven, and if so, how would I understand the scripture that says "He poured out his soul unto death"-Isaiah 53:12 ? In other words how could his soul How could his soul be in heaven or supposing paradise to be some other place than heaven, how could his soul be in paradise, when it is declared that his soul was not left in hell(hades or grave)? Acts 2:31. It is plain that the scriptures teach Christ died, that he was buried, and that he rose from the dead(1 Cor. 15:55). In view of this, how could he be in heaven on that day he spake the words in question to the thief?
Question: Did Christ die? The popular answer would be to error - "His soul did not die," thus denying the Word of God, which declares that "He poured out his soul unto death." If I press the question again and understanding that you believe in the immortality of the soul you would be forced to answer - "His body died;" an answer which we both know means, No, Christ did not die, only his body or the house he dwelt in died, but he did not. This is the denial of the death of Christ; to say that the body he inhabited died is to say that something else other than himself died. The scripture cannot be divided. So, logically it will be seen that the theory that would send Christ to heaven, or to any other place of conscious existence with the thief the very day he uttered the promise necessitates a denial of his death. So, this matter resolves itself into the question of 'which is wrong'; the theory that says Christ that very day was alive with the thief in paradise, or the Scriptures that declare that he died? "The Scripture cannot be broken;" therefore the theory must be wrong. Nothing that nullifies the plain statements of God`s Word, that Christ really died, and that the same Christ that died was buried, and that if he had not been raised there would have been no living Christ(see 1 Cor 15). Scripture states that Christ did not go to heaven the day He uttered the promise to the thief is a positive proof. Three days afterwards, upon his resurrection from the tomb, he met Mary, and said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father"(John 20:17.) You may readily see that the theory that sends Christ to heaven with the thief the day of his death is a flat contradiction of the Lord`s words uttered at his resurrection three days after his death. The "I" who spoke to the thief is surely the same "I" who addressed Mary. How could this "I" say on one day I will be in heaven this day, and three days after say I am not yet ascended to heaven? MYSTERY! They say MYSTERY! When the fact is that the theory by which they misrepresent our Savior, whose words are infallible, is, of course wrong; and with that theory weighed in the balances of reasoning and found wanting what could any thinking person do but through it aside.
To understand the Savior`s answer to the thief we must keep in view the latters request. He did not say Lord remember me when thou goest to heaven; but "Lord remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
Note: The Bible teaches a hereafter, not a thereafter like the Egyptians did.
Was this request in accord with what our Lord had taught his disciples to hope for? It certainly was; in the parable of the nobleman(Luke 19) He had shown that he would go to heaven and return; that during his absence the duty of his disciples would be not to expect to follow him, but to "Occupy till I come;" and that it would be when he would return, "Having received the kingdom," he would call his servants before him for judgment, reward and punishment according to their works. In unmistakable language he declared, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." (Matt 25:31.); and those on His right hand at that time he will say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared," etc. Referring to this time, and in full accordance with this teaching, the thief asked, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" - the vert time when, as the Apostle Paul says, "Christ shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom". (2Tim. 4:1.)
Rev. 11:15 answers when and that the Earth will be restored. Further read Isa.51:3 and Zech 14:9.
Now, as to the form of the words in the promise as it appears in our translation(s), it must not be forgotten that the translators were biased in favor of the popular heaven-going sky-kingdom theory, and may have therefore sincerely but mistakenly have placed words in the form in which we find them in the Common Version and now many other translations. Punctuation is of comparatively recent date, and translators often differ in their use of it as well as in the positions of the various words composing a sentence. As different morphologies used and differing translation including the Vaticanus 1209 of which the Diaglott is a copy/ In word for word translation the promise to the thief reads as follows: "Indeed I say to thee, to-day with me thou shalt be in paradise." In the text of the same translation it reads "Indeed I say to thee, This day thou shalt be with me in paradise." That is, this day referred to by the thief`s request, namely, the day when Christ would come into his kingdom. I would recommend particular attention to the fact to the fact that here it is "thou shalt" instead of "shalt thou," as in the King James translation. The text is therefore in harmony with the facts and truths of Scripture you have asked attention to. There is a similar case located in Zech.9:12.
Christ excused and forgave an habitual thief and so our Father in Heaven is mercifully kind towards us. As to the degree of the thief's crime the Savior was a better judge than the Roman government was. This ended the life of a man of sorrow with an extrodinary manifestation and exercise of Divine mercy of which he was and is the embodiment.

Death is separation of the immortal soul from the mortal body.
Christ poured out His immortal soul unto the separation of His immortal soul from His mortal body;
He poured out His soul unto death. He didn't pour out His soul unto nonexistence or unto a destruction of the soul.

Thief on the cross: Jesus wasn't obligated to the contents of the thief's request when He made His promise to him. His promise didn't have to match the request, per se. You seem to be insisting that it did. The thief went to heaven with Jesus that very day just like Jesus promised. I believe that the moment the thief looked to Jesus in faith and made the request, that he was "delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Father's dear Son" before he died on his cross; just like all born again believers are (Colossians 1:13).

Ascension: ... I am not yet ascended to my Father ...
Notice He doesn't say, "I have never ascended before". Notice He doesn't say, "I am not ascended for the first time ever". You're reading an idea into the text that isn't there.

Immortal souls separated from mortal bodies: You can go to Luke 16:19-31 and meet 3 of them. 2 are in heaven and 1 is in hell.

 

[Noose]

This will be painful - I can do this again but as far as being fruitful I do not think that would happen, experience has shown that once a person has made up their mind concerning doctrine it is very rare that they will change their mind. So, I would doubt that no matter what I showed you, you would be re-baptised because of what you would read from me. It is what it is. However. I do this for practice sake in the fundamentals.
Even with proof most just choose to ignore the facts in favor of popular doctrine.
A person can find out what the word soul means using any good concordance keyed to the Bible of their choice. As I am sure you know. So I am mystified as to the stubborn application of any doctrine that teaches otherwise. Even when using a concordance written by a believer in the dogma of the immortal-soul the meaning is clearly the opposite of popular doctrines. You sound well read and therefore so, when I read the history of Herodotus` volumes of his travels he states "The Egyptians say that Ceres (the god of corn) and Bacchus (the god of wine), hold chief sway in the infernal regions; and the Egyptians, also, were the first who asserted the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal." and again in Mosheim`s History, Vol. 1, p.86 is stated "Its promoters argued that known doctrine of the Platonic School, which was also accepted by Origen and his disciples, that the divine nature was diffused through all human souls."
In view of these statements it is clear that this doctrine of the immortality of the soul is clearly a man made pagan dogma, and that it was fused with Orthodox Christianity.
Even with the originators of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, it was a matter of expediency rather than on of truth. Gibbon, though, inadvertently in error in certain parts is correct when he states "With the people" - the ignorant masses - "it was equally true, with the philosophers equally false, and with statesman equally necessary." This idea was called "The Pious Fraud." I could give much more proof texts but I trust this is quite enough as it shows that you actually believe that Jesus Christ and his Apostles actually taught this Egyptian dogma as part and parcel of the truth. As for unsavory, unfruitfulness, I would say the point is mute. You have chosen to ignore this truth and apply and teach this dogma to others by your own words using God`s words as what you say are a proof which are not. This system of thinking is clearly an abomination.
Perhaps you would share with me how you manage to reconcile these opposing views. In point of this evidence you have not proved anything except your clear unawareness of the historical background of your belief-system which I cannot call a religion, or your stubbornness in admitting the facts. If you read this far.....
Biblically speaking the word soul is the Hebrew word 'nephesh', of the Old Testament. This word occurs about 700 times, and is also rendered soul 471 times, life and living about 150 times; and the same word is rendered a man, a person, self, they, me, him, anyone, breath, heart, mind, appetite, the body, (dead or alive,) lust, creature, and even a beast; The word is applied to beasts 28 times and to every creeping thing.The Greek word psuche in the N.T. corresponds to nephesh of the O.T. It occurs 105 times and is rendered soul 59 times, and life 40 times. The same word is also rendered as mind, us, you, heart, heartily, and is twice applied to the beasts that perish. Psuchikos, an adjective derived from psuche, occurs 6 times, and is translated natural and sensual; it is properly translated animal in modern translations. It may be worthy to notice that in all the 700 times which nephesh occurs, and the 105 times of psuche, not once is the word immortal or immortality or deathlesness or never-dying or soul-sleeping found in connection as qualifying the terms.
You asked for Scriptural proof that souls die?
Josh. 10:28; Judges 16:16; Job 7:15; Psa.33:19, Psa. 78:50; Isa. 53:12; Ezek. 13:19, Ezek 18:4 and verse 27; Matt. 26:38; Jas. 5:20; Rev. 16:3.
Souls are destructible and destroyed:
Psa. 35:17, Psa. 63:9; Acts 3:23.
This is by no means exhaustive but I can easily provide you with Biblical proof purposeful mistranslation that have been left which only seem to prove your position and are easily exposed. I can provide Scriptural proof that souls go to and are delivered pit or grave, etc.
The term "living soul" is used by some practitioners of your belief system located in Gen 2:7 where it is said "man became a living soul which is rendered 'nephesh chayiah' which is a general term to express all creatures endued with animal life in any of its infinitely varied gradations. I find no proof of your position in maintaining that a 'soul' is immortal other than an Egyptian dogma. Respectfully speaking.

The verses you quoted actually show nothing:

Ezek 13:19You have profaned Meamong My people for handfuls of barley and scrapsof bread. By lying to My people who would listen,you have killed those who should not have died and spared those who should not have lived.’

Psalms 78:50He cleared a path for His anger; He did not spare them from death but delivered their livesto the plague.

Psalms 33:19 to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine. 20Our soul waits for the LORD; He is our help and our shield.


These are just a small portion of your purported evidence, but there's absolutely nothing in them that indicate a soul dies. In fact Psalms 33:19-20 indicates that at death our souls wait for the Lord, it destroys your position.

Genesis says man became a living soul but where is the verse that says man becomes a dead soul after death?

You don't know what i believe, i never said the soul is immortal but believing that the soul dies physically at the point the body dies is absurd.

 

[Noose]

We have the word 'spirit' lowercase. And the word "Spirit" uppercase. I would contest that this word in either font casing is an "IT". It is the power by which God operates. Spirit is translated in the O.T. as neshamah and ruach. meaning given lexicographers is - wind, breath, life, mind, and intellect. No where in the Bible does it mean an immortal intellect of man, or an immortal entity. I can prove this Biblically speaking to an exhaustive degree. This will be painful as well.

I don't believe in Hebrewdization. If Hebrew is necessary for anyone to understand anything, then all 1st century and indeed all Hebrew speakers should make it to the kingdom of God, but they rejected God.

A text from Paul, he had you in mind. Read it and understand.

1 Cor 15:
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. ........

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour?31I face death every day—yes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,


Paul is not talking about the future, it is now and continuous. If Paul was talking about the future, then why not say "...if there will be no resurrection..." and "...if the dead will not be raised..."

Think about it.

 

[JohnRH]

1 It is sometimes argued that "destroy" means to "afflict" or "torment" but not to annihilate.
The Greek word, "apollu" translated "destroy" means to "destroy utterly". Ethelbert
W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek Testament,
(London: Samuel Bagster and Sons Ltd., 1957), p. 220. There is not the slightest suggestion
of torment in any of the places where "apollu" is translated "destroy" in the A.V.
(e.g. Matt. 2:13; 12:14; 21:41. 22:7; 27:20.).

Let's put that to a test:

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Is that eye annihilated? I think you can pick it back up off the ground and play catch with it.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Are those bottles annihilated? I think they continue to exist and are simply useless!

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying ...
Are the Twelve being sent to preach to annihilated "utterly destroyed" people who don't exist?

Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
The Son of man is come to save annihilated people who don't exist?

Luke 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
Wow. The scribes & Pharisees have the ability to annihilate psuche?

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
He found his non-existent sheep?

Romans 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Am I being told to not cause my brother in Christ to stop existing with my choice of food?