What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?
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To give a short answer:
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
To show what that is:
Matthew 5:17-20,17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens."
Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”
Now I know quoteing these passage usually draw accusation and they get thrown outwhen forming doctrine but they are the words of the Messiah...
John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
To show what that is:
Matthew 5:17-20,17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens."
Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”
Now I know quoteing these passage usually draw accusation and they get thrown outwhen forming doctrine but they are the words of the Messiah...
The Messiah is the Word right? Does the Word include the Law?
Lets review that post:
Yahshua word will be used to judge, as He is the Judge...
In the sermon on the mount Yahshua the Messiah says nothing will pass from the Law unless heaven and earth passes and ALL is fulfilled...
Heaven and earth has not passed and the prophecies about His return have not yet been fulfilled...
That was for for extra credit...
This does not mean there will not be mercy, but how can a judge judge if there is not standard? Also I know, if it does not fit common doctrine it is usually ignored...
Lets review that post:
Yahshua word will be used to judge, as He is the Judge...
In the sermon on the mount Yahshua the Messiah says nothing will pass from the Law unless heaven and earth passes and ALL is fulfilled...
Heaven and earth has not passed and the prophecies about His return have not yet been fulfilled...
That was for for extra credit...
This does not mean there will not be mercy, but how can a judge judge if there is not standard? Also I know, if it does not fit common doctrine it is usually ignored...
I just said in my last post:
Those who are justified are justified by the mercy of YHWH, there is nothing I can do to EARN faith or works.
I would suggest compiling every passage that the Messiah talks about eternal life and studying them all, not choosing one or two, but studying them all...
Are these passage true? or are they justified by works evil pharisee lawyerism?
I say they are true, and as I said above all need Yah;s mercy none will enter without it and none can earn salvation by faith or works, yet I also know these to be true... I have a question for you I will ask at the bottom of this post...
Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him.”
If someone confesses the Messiah with their lips but rejects everything He says to do is that person saved? and if they are not is that works justification? What about the person who confesses the Messiah but does what He says? Is that works justification? Or does that person, even though they sought to be obedient still need mercy and therefore is not works justification?
Those who are justified are justified by the mercy of YHWH, there is nothing I can do to EARN faith or works.
I would suggest compiling every passage that the Messiah talks about eternal life and studying them all, not choosing one or two, but studying them all...
Are these passage true? or are they justified by works evil pharisee lawyerism?
I say they are true, and as I said above all need Yah;s mercy none will enter without it and none can earn salvation by faith or works, yet I also know these to be true... I have a question for you I will ask at the bottom of this post...
Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”
Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him.”
If someone confesses the Messiah with their lips but rejects everything He says to do is that person saved? and if they are not is that works justification? What about the person who confesses the Messiah but does what He says? Is that works justification? Or does that person, even though they sought to be obedient still need mercy and therefore is not works justification?
I say obedience is right and true faith has obedience, yet this does not save because it still takes Yah;s mercy...
John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”
It’s called properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. We also must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.
It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
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A good rule to follow, if someone makes the claim that all OT law has been removed keep in mind they do follow many of them. Should we keep just one then we are obligated to keep them all. Though the sacrificial system was removed in the OT and made void by the sacrifice of Yeshua.
The feast are not jews feast, they are in fact HaShems feast. Please see Lev. 23 for conformation on that fact. Besides that, if they were Jewish feast, then by Romans 11, we are adopted into the house of Israel. That doesn't make us Hebrew by any understanding, however, it does place us in the family.
One last thing. If all OT laws have been removed, then any saying that homosexuality is a sin, is ether confused, teaching on contrast to there own words, or both.
The feast are not jews feast, they are in fact HaShems feast. Please see Lev. 23 for conformation on that fact. Besides that, if they were Jewish feast, then by Romans 11, we are adopted into the house of Israel. That doesn't make us Hebrew by any understanding, however, it does place us in the family.
One last thing. If all OT laws have been removed, then any saying that homosexuality is a sin, is ether confused, teaching on contrast to there own words, or both.
I don't recall the Lord Jesus Christ saying He came to fulfill animal sacrifice.
The Lord Jesus Christ said He came to fulfill ALL the law.
That doesn't mean ANY of the OT laws have been removed. It means a person can be given rest from their work at them IF they come to Christ to receive that rest.
If they are still working at the law then they obviously have not received rest from it.
It is strange how many claim to be Christian but how few understand what Christianity actually is.
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot or tittle will fall from the law until ALL IS FULFILLED.
That means you can't pick and choose which OT laws are your favorite and which ones YOU have determined to be passed away.
Its ALL or its NONE.
You get to work at ALL the law or you come to Christ and receive Rest from your work (and understanding) of the law.
I suppose you don't see it but Hebrew roots, SDA, and legalists of every sort make a mockery of Christianity. Going back to work at the shadow thinking that is what makes them part of Israel or Gods People.
Galatians 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The Lord Jesus Christ said He came to fulfill ALL the law.
That doesn't mean ANY of the OT laws have been removed. It means a person can be given rest from their work at them IF they come to Christ to receive that rest.
If they are still working at the law then they obviously have not received rest from it.
It is strange how many claim to be Christian but how few understand what Christianity actually is.
Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Not one jot or tittle will fall from the law until ALL IS FULFILLED.
That means you can't pick and choose which OT laws are your favorite and which ones YOU have determined to be passed away.
Its ALL or its NONE.
You get to work at ALL the law or you come to Christ and receive Rest from your work (and understanding) of the law.
I suppose you don't see it but Hebrew roots, SDA, and legalists of every sort make a mockery of Christianity. Going back to work at the shadow thinking that is what makes them part of Israel or Gods People.
Galatians 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Jesus' primary mission while in the flesh was to prepare Israel to receive Him as their coming, promised Messiah. His message was to instruct those that would hear to obey the law and follow the Old Testament prophets. His was a Jewish economy. The only time he addressed a Gentile was to call her a dog eating crumbs at the Master's table. He was not sent, nor did He minister, to non-Jews. Yes, He did deal with a Samaritan woman . . . she was a half-Jew. He did not address the mysteries that Paul would later reveal through the Holy Spirit.
What I know about salvation, security, the sealing of the Spirit, the church, and ministry in general I learned from the Epistles.
Jesus Christ is my Saviour . . . when He died on the cross he did not shed His blood for an elect few - He died for every man and woman that was ever born on this planet. It does not matter that at least 95% reject Him - He suffered equally for each and every one of them - billions that will still go to hell.
Jesus is my Saviour, but the Holy Spirit (through Paul) is my Teacher.
The church is in the mess it is today because it never learned that lesson - so we have a majority of professors believing that the church took over where Israel failed and they are under the same legal system, while the possessors that have learned to 'rightly divide the word of truth' are building themselves up in the most holy faith, secure in the knowledge that their relationship with the Saviour is an eternal, unconditional covenant paid for by blood.
What I know about salvation, security, the sealing of the Spirit, the church, and ministry in general I learned from the Epistles.
Jesus Christ is my Saviour . . . when He died on the cross he did not shed His blood for an elect few - He died for every man and woman that was ever born on this planet. It does not matter that at least 95% reject Him - He suffered equally for each and every one of them - billions that will still go to hell.
Jesus is my Saviour, but the Holy Spirit (through Paul) is my Teacher.
The church is in the mess it is today because it never learned that lesson - so we have a majority of professors believing that the church took over where Israel failed and they are under the same legal system, while the possessors that have learned to 'rightly divide the word of truth' are building themselves up in the most holy faith, secure in the knowledge that their relationship with the Saviour is an eternal, unconditional covenant paid for by blood.
By witness of the passages you gave, Mat 5:18, nothing in the Law will change until Heaven and earth are done away. As I am sure you know, they are both still here.
This passage would lead one to understand that when taken as a whole, and not just the parts we like, that the Law still stands.
Take just the one I made note of, would in your way of thinking homosexuality remain a sin? Even if a person tells us they are a follower, sexual sin remains sin. If we do away with the law, then there is no sin.
1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
This passage would lead one to understand that when taken as a whole, and not just the parts we like, that the Law still stands.
Take just the one I made note of, would in your way of thinking homosexuality remain a sin? Even if a person tells us they are a follower, sexual sin remains sin. If we do away with the law, then there is no sin.
1John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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JOHN 20:16.
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto Him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
ELOHYIM = God -Judge-The True God
MATT. 24:22.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but
for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:24.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:31.
And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
TIT. 1:1-2...
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;...
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;...
1PETER 1:2.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God The Father, through sanctification of The Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2:6.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a Chief Corner Stone, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.
11JOHN 1:13.
The children of Thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto Him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
ELOHYIM = God -Judge-The True God
MATT. 24:22.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but
for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:24.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders;
insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:31.
And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
TIT. 1:1-2...
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;...
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;...
1PETER 1:2.
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God The Father, through sanctification of The Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2:6.
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a Chief Corner Stone, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.
11JOHN 1:13.
The children of Thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
I'm not sure why you don't understand Matthew 5:17-18.
The Lord said He came to fulfill the law. Then He said all the law will stand until He fulfills it. All of it.
So The Lord either fulfilled ALL of the law or every jot and tittle still stands. The Lord didn't leave any middle ground for you to pick and choose which laws you like best and which you think you can get rid of.
So, while you are condemning people with parts of the law, the whole law stands in condemnation of you.
If a Christian were trying to justify their homosexuality I would let them know that NO, its not ok. I'm not God though, so I don't know what His Plan is behind that persons struggle. Is it deliverance in order to be a witness to others with that same struggle? That would be my guess...
But on the same note I know that some part of the law condemns me as well so I would be a hypocrite to say YOU are a sinner and need to stop sinning NOW.
All I can give as a solution is EVERYONE must come to Christ. Christ helps to "fix" us. The law does not.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Uh-oh...
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
So what is the solution? Keep beating people with the whip of condemnation? Nope. That way doesn't work.
Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
The Lord said He came to fulfill the law. Then He said all the law will stand until He fulfills it. All of it.
So The Lord either fulfilled ALL of the law or every jot and tittle still stands. The Lord didn't leave any middle ground for you to pick and choose which laws you like best and which you think you can get rid of.
So, while you are condemning people with parts of the law, the whole law stands in condemnation of you.
If a Christian were trying to justify their homosexuality I would let them know that NO, its not ok. I'm not God though, so I don't know what His Plan is behind that persons struggle. Is it deliverance in order to be a witness to others with that same struggle? That would be my guess...
But on the same note I know that some part of the law condemns me as well so I would be a hypocrite to say YOU are a sinner and need to stop sinning NOW.
All I can give as a solution is EVERYONE must come to Christ. Christ helps to "fix" us. The law does not.
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Uh-oh...
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
So what is the solution? Keep beating people with the whip of condemnation? Nope. That way doesn't work.
Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
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