Not By Works
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Like I originally stated they are very conservative, or at least were before they started accepting government money and have to abide by government rules etc...corruption! The one thing that is sort of a stumbling block to some is to keep ones Salvation they must try and remain humble and repentive of sins. In other words success over sin in the flesh is not really possible but we must try not to sin when possible and when we know we have admit and confess to Jesus and try not to do it again. BTW, I am not a Salvationist, I've worked with them and studied with them etc. I believe in saved by grace led to faith which cemented salvation bur reliance on empty faith like a trump as a hole card is a bad move. Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Thinking we can get away with murder because we said the sinners prayer is not tangible faith, it's a mockery. We must be circumcised of the heart or it isn't faith because true faith changes people. Only god can see the changes sometimes but he decides who has true faith, not a doctrine or text book. That's what I believe, in a nutshell.
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We are all supposed to do that:
Romans 13:1-8 (HCSB)
1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.
2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
4 For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience.
6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the ⌊authorities⌋ are God’s public servants, continually attending to these tasks.
7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
Romans 13:1-8 (HCSB)
1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God.
2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval.
4 For government is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.
5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience.
6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the ⌊authorities⌋ are God’s public servants, continually attending to these tasks.
7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.
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Yes, thank you. So just to clarify: According to your belief, baptism is a work of righteousness that people do after they have faith in Jesus Christ. It is a sign of a covenant made with God. It also seems to me that you believe that ones personal relationship with Jesus Christ is more important than baptism.
A few clarifying questions:
You belief baptism is essential for eternal life right?
but not as important as your personal relationship with Christ right?
According to your beliefs who can baptize?
How about the role the Holy Ghost plays in sanctification, What do you believe on that subject?
Also which sect do attend? I am confused about how Protestants, baptists, Lutherans, and others group themselves together as the body of Christ. They all defer in specific doctrine right, but what groups them together?
There are also many who only worship at home...are they also part of the body of Christ? Who is exclude and why?
A few clarifying questions:
You belief baptism is essential for eternal life right?
but not as important as your personal relationship with Christ right?
According to your beliefs who can baptize?
How about the role the Holy Ghost plays in sanctification, What do you believe on that subject?
Also which sect do attend? I am confused about how Protestants, baptists, Lutherans, and others group themselves together as the body of Christ. They all defer in specific doctrine right, but what groups them together?
There are also many who only worship at home...are they also part of the body of Christ? Who is exclude and why?
Yes I believe faith and personal relationship with Jesus is the most important thing above all and that baptism is done after people have faith. If you place your faith in Christ in a desert with no water present; are you still saved? I say yes. Ephesians 1:13 says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believed. But if you are in a situation where you profess faith in Christ, and baptism is offered to you, and shown to you from the Scriptures and you refuse that, that is like rejecting the covenant and something is definately wrong. Similar to how circumcision worked in the O.T. I believe God works in covenants. The genuinely born again have a desire to be baptized and to serve the Lord.
Since the Bible is quiet on who has the authority to baptize, and we are commanded to do so in the great commission. I believe every born again believer has the right to baptize.
I believe the Holy Ghost plays a central role in sanctification, we are told to walk in the Spirit, and we are empowered by God's grace to do so.
All of the following is the fruit of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I am with you there that im not a fan of denominations, but if I had to choose one it would probably be baptist.
You are also right that they all defer in doctrines, but what groups them together is the essentials in which all agree, such as: The Bible is God's word, God is triune, The Gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, we are saved by grace through faith and the bodily resurrection and return of Jesus.
Certainly. A church building has never saved anyone. In fact you can go to a church all your life and be an atheist. In today's contemporary apostate church the house assemblies might actually be a safer and better place to fellowship in many cases.
I would not be brave enough to 'exclude' anyone from the kingdom of God unless some of the essentials (listed above) are rejected. May I also ask what church you attend? (If any)
Since the Bible is quiet on who has the authority to baptize, and we are commanded to do so in the great commission. I believe every born again believer has the right to baptize.
I believe the Holy Ghost plays a central role in sanctification, we are told to walk in the Spirit, and we are empowered by God's grace to do so.
All of the following is the fruit of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
I am with you there that im not a fan of denominations, but if I had to choose one it would probably be baptist.
You are also right that they all defer in doctrines, but what groups them together is the essentials in which all agree, such as: The Bible is God's word, God is triune, The Gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, we are saved by grace through faith and the bodily resurrection and return of Jesus.
Certainly. A church building has never saved anyone. In fact you can go to a church all your life and be an atheist. In today's contemporary apostate church the house assemblies might actually be a safer and better place to fellowship in many cases.
I would not be brave enough to 'exclude' anyone from the kingdom of God unless some of the essentials (listed above) are rejected. May I also ask what church you attend? (If any)
Hi,
You said in a previous post that the moment someone places their faith in Jesus then they should be baptised straight away.
That I totally agree with.
We are saved by grace through faith.
I have embolded the above because if you don't mind it's something I wish to touch on.
To refuse baptism is not necessarily rejecting the covenant but if so then something is wrong.
Firstly in today's church baptism does not happen straight away.
If someone responds to the Gospel with genuine belief baptism is not even addressed.
In today's church there are caveats added before you can be baptised.
A simple thing like giving a great testimony.
Some don't have a great testimony, so they back off.
Some are frightened to speak in front of many people.
Most churches meet with those who wish to be baptised.
Asked load of questions and if you tick all the boxes then yes they will baptise you.
If no then no.
My pastor at church (a lovely man of God) and I were talking about baptism, as I was asked would I be willing to baptise people.
I think he was fishing in terms of my thoughts on why and when.
Like you I said straight away, because they believe, per Romans 10:9
I said "I genuinely believe it's a spiritual marker.
He then relayed to me how someone came to Jesus and had a drug problem.
He asked to be baptised and my pastor was resistant to do so cause he was still struggling with drugs.
God said to him "Baptise him, he has placed faith in Jesus"
So he did so. The guy had a spliff in the morning, when he rose from the water he has never done drugs since.
Now he may have still struggled with it afterwards but if we knew he would, is that a reason not to baptise? NO ITS NOT.
I spent time with someone who wouldn't get baptised because he felt he was not good enough, he sinned to much.
Eventually (don't know why it took so long to do so) I read the verses from Romans 10:9 and asked him if he did confess and believe. He said yes.
Then I said that is why you should be baptised.
He was a few weeks later.
I baptised someone who was scared witless about having to give some great testimony, speaking in front of people (my church has about 400 members).
So I said just stand up and confess your faith and that's why you are getting baptised.
That he did.
Alas I rejected someone to be baptised.
When we met I asked him if he had done what is expressed in Romans 10:9
He said no he had not, so I asked him shall we do that now.
He said no. So I had no choice but to say no I can't baptise you, baptism is for belivers.
Sorry gone on a bit.
The point I'm trying to make is that if someone refuses Baptism they are not necessarily rejecting the covenant.
You said even if they are shown scripture, that depends also on what scripture they are quoted.
Some churches today will not baptise people because they are not members.
Maybe the church is the issue and not the people.
As I said, I believe Baptism is a spiritual marker.
That is why Muslims will not persue a fellow Muslim who comes to Jesus and it's baptised (as a Muslim friend told me)
You said in a previous post that the moment someone places their faith in Jesus then they should be baptised straight away.
That I totally agree with.
We are saved by grace through faith.
I have embolded the above because if you don't mind it's something I wish to touch on.
To refuse baptism is not necessarily rejecting the covenant but if so then something is wrong.
Firstly in today's church baptism does not happen straight away.
If someone responds to the Gospel with genuine belief baptism is not even addressed.
In today's church there are caveats added before you can be baptised.
A simple thing like giving a great testimony.
Some don't have a great testimony, so they back off.
Some are frightened to speak in front of many people.
Most churches meet with those who wish to be baptised.
Asked load of questions and if you tick all the boxes then yes they will baptise you.
If no then no.
My pastor at church (a lovely man of God) and I were talking about baptism, as I was asked would I be willing to baptise people.
I think he was fishing in terms of my thoughts on why and when.
Like you I said straight away, because they believe, per Romans 10:9
I said "I genuinely believe it's a spiritual marker.
He then relayed to me how someone came to Jesus and had a drug problem.
He asked to be baptised and my pastor was resistant to do so cause he was still struggling with drugs.
God said to him "Baptise him, he has placed faith in Jesus"
So he did so. The guy had a spliff in the morning, when he rose from the water he has never done drugs since.
Now he may have still struggled with it afterwards but if we knew he would, is that a reason not to baptise? NO ITS NOT.
I spent time with someone who wouldn't get baptised because he felt he was not good enough, he sinned to much.
Eventually (don't know why it took so long to do so) I read the verses from Romans 10:9 and asked him if he did confess and believe. He said yes.
Then I said that is why you should be baptised.
He was a few weeks later.
I baptised someone who was scared witless about having to give some great testimony, speaking in front of people (my church has about 400 members).
So I said just stand up and confess your faith and that's why you are getting baptised.
That he did.
Alas I rejected someone to be baptised.
When we met I asked him if he had done what is expressed in Romans 10:9
He said no he had not, so I asked him shall we do that now.
He said no. So I had no choice but to say no I can't baptise you, baptism is for belivers.
Sorry gone on a bit.
The point I'm trying to make is that if someone refuses Baptism they are not necessarily rejecting the covenant.
You said even if they are shown scripture, that depends also on what scripture they are quoted.
Some churches today will not baptise people because they are not members.
Maybe the church is the issue and not the people.
As I said, I believe Baptism is a spiritual marker.
That is why Muslims will not persue a fellow Muslim who comes to Jesus and it's baptised (as a Muslim friend told me)
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That was not what he was talking about, HE is talking about Born Again, and part of that experience is GOD has the HOLY SPIRIT pour HIS LOVE, directly into our HEARTS (human spirit), Rom. 5:5. So when were you Born Again?
No, Like CNN and MSNBC, who are FAMOUS for Creating an Distorted version of the NEWS, which they think WILL BE MORE APPEALING TO THEIR audience, because it is what they want to HEAR.
Food for THOUGHT!
Christ walks around 7 candlesticks in first 3 chapter of Revelation, NOT JUST ONE. They represent the broad spectrum of Christianity, and all GET SOME SAVED, and HE recognizes ALL SEVEN TYPES. Sure there is "SOMEWHAT AGAINST YOU" in most, and only TWO had no admonishment from HIM. HOWEVER, HE RECOGNIZES ALL SEVEN AS PART OF THE ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT. Now do you think HE will take it KINDLY, if you insult, and put down those who are not your personal favorite?
I have even met BORN AGAIN CATHOLICS in my life, and TWO of them are Priests, AND you can tell by the LOVE in their Hearts for others, Rom. 5:5 & 1 John 3:14:19. They convinced me they are there, to Point the Way of SALVATION is IN CHRIST, and not Mary. It truly is GOD's Calling in their Lives. So, I cringe every time I hear others PUT DOWN CATHOLICS, because I know they are getting a few People Saved. Yes, Christ will HAVE A FEW THINGS AGAINST THEM, but THAT is HIS JOB, not mine. I can find EVERY STATEMENT in the Catholic Catechism, that is in the Baptist Doctrinal Statement of Faith. So, now are you going to Stone me TOO?
So maybe the Catholics are getting fewer saved, but they do get a few SAVED meaning BORN AGAIN. So I will not Judge them, but I personally can recommend that they find a Church that TEACHES the WORD way more than any other part of the SERVICE. Because Peter was told three Times to FEED HIS SHEEP. Why do you think GOD allowed HIS ASSEMBLY to become so diversified? Because WE are so diverse in ourselves. If one style of Service, does not appeal to us, maybe another will?
2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
For example: I am not fond of Hell Fire And Brimstone Preaching, but I know Some people will not feel like they have been to Church unless the Preacher yells and screams at them. I prefer that a Pastor be GIFTED to Teach the Word, Explain It, and Tells me how it Applies to my Life, for about an Hour, and to me GIFTED is he will not bore me; or I do not feel like I have been to Church. Some people want tongues to be part of the Service, EVEN THOUGH I Personally Do Not Believe in the Modern Day Examples, because it is NOT like what the Apostles DID, but I still recognize them as a part of the Valid Assembly that Christ has Built. I was a Volunteer for the Ministerial Association for a couple years, and I was able to treat all Churches that Taught Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity, equally.
It seems that our focus should be on what they do and teach RIGHT, not on what they Teach, in our opinion, that is error.
No, Like CNN and MSNBC, who are FAMOUS for Creating an Distorted version of the NEWS, which they think WILL BE MORE APPEALING TO THEIR audience, because it is what they want to HEAR.
Food for THOUGHT!
Christ walks around 7 candlesticks in first 3 chapter of Revelation, NOT JUST ONE. They represent the broad spectrum of Christianity, and all GET SOME SAVED, and HE recognizes ALL SEVEN TYPES. Sure there is "SOMEWHAT AGAINST YOU" in most, and only TWO had no admonishment from HIM. HOWEVER, HE RECOGNIZES ALL SEVEN AS PART OF THE ASSEMBLY THAT HE HAS BUILT. Now do you think HE will take it KINDLY, if you insult, and put down those who are not your personal favorite?
I have even met BORN AGAIN CATHOLICS in my life, and TWO of them are Priests, AND you can tell by the LOVE in their Hearts for others, Rom. 5:5 & 1 John 3:14:19. They convinced me they are there, to Point the Way of SALVATION is IN CHRIST, and not Mary. It truly is GOD's Calling in their Lives. So, I cringe every time I hear others PUT DOWN CATHOLICS, because I know they are getting a few People Saved. Yes, Christ will HAVE A FEW THINGS AGAINST THEM, but THAT is HIS JOB, not mine. I can find EVERY STATEMENT in the Catholic Catechism, that is in the Baptist Doctrinal Statement of Faith. So, now are you going to Stone me TOO?
So maybe the Catholics are getting fewer saved, but they do get a few SAVED meaning BORN AGAIN. So I will not Judge them, but I personally can recommend that they find a Church that TEACHES the WORD way more than any other part of the SERVICE. Because Peter was told three Times to FEED HIS SHEEP. Why do you think GOD allowed HIS ASSEMBLY to become so diversified? Because WE are so diverse in ourselves. If one style of Service, does not appeal to us, maybe another will?
2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
For example: I am not fond of Hell Fire And Brimstone Preaching, but I know Some people will not feel like they have been to Church unless the Preacher yells and screams at them. I prefer that a Pastor be GIFTED to Teach the Word, Explain It, and Tells me how it Applies to my Life, for about an Hour, and to me GIFTED is he will not bore me; or I do not feel like I have been to Church. Some people want tongues to be part of the Service, EVEN THOUGH I Personally Do Not Believe in the Modern Day Examples, because it is NOT like what the Apostles DID, but I still recognize them as a part of the Valid Assembly that Christ has Built. I was a Volunteer for the Ministerial Association for a couple years, and I was able to treat all Churches that Taught Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity, equally.
It seems that our focus should be on what they do and teach RIGHT, not on what they Teach, in our opinion, that is error.
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