Where do believers go after death?
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So you are saying that Jesus was in paradise to receive the thief that day? Show me the scriptures. 
Jeremiah 23:24
"Can a man hide in secret places where I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and earth?" declares the LORD.
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That is the Holy Spirit, Christ was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights to fulfill scripture.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Name=Authority
The child's authority shall be:
Everlasting Father = Father
Wonderful Counselor = Holy spirit
Prince of Peace = Son
Mighty God= Mighty God
Jesus is our Counselor! God the Holy Spirit is "ANOTHER" Counselor, sent to us by God the Father after Jesus' Ascension. They are the same God, but they are different Persons/Members of the Godhead. Here is part of what Jesus had to say to us about the Holy Spirit.
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
~Deut
.........John 15
.........26 ..When the Counselor comes, the one I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father
.........—He will.testify about me.
.........
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
~Deut
.........John 15
.........26 ..When the Counselor comes, the one I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father
.........—He will.testify about me.
.........
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you
Read again these passages. Jesus is actually the advocate:
1. The advocate can not come unless Jesus goes
2. The advocate was already there with them but when Jesus goes, the advocate will be in them
3. Jesus says He will come to them shortly
Conclusion: Jesus is the advocate and had to go and come in another form (the reason He calls Himself another advocate). Yes, Jesus is the comforter who was there with them. The other comforter could not come unless Jesus goes.
John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you
Read again these passages. Jesus is actually the advocate:
1. The advocate can not come unless Jesus goes
2. The advocate was already there with them but when Jesus goes, the advocate will be in them
3. Jesus says He will come to them shortly
Conclusion: Jesus is the advocate and had to go and come in another form (the reason He calls Himself another advocate). Yes, Jesus is the comforter who was there with them. The other comforter could not come unless Jesus goes.
Jesus did not promise that the thief would walk with him in paradise, only that the thief would be with him in paradise. If they are both in Heaven then the thief is with him. When the bible tells of us lying in bed during death, some Jewish versions say that we will be lying on a couch. I can't see a grave being called a couch, but I can imagine a couch in our room, which has been prepared for us in Heaven by Jesus.
Then why the great deception?
Jesus told us that He was sending us ANOTHER Counselor (IOW, another Person, not the same Person in a different "outfit"), and that this other Person (God the HS) would testify about Him (God the Son) and remind us about everything that He taught us while He lived here among us.
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
Jesus lives in Heaven and remains in the form He left us in, IOW, He, the God/man, still has a physical body (albeit a glorified one), which would make the indwelling of believers a bit tough I would think
Also, He tells us clearly about His return to us and what to expect when He finally does, in Matthew 24. He says that it will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west (IOW, no one will have to tell anyone else that Jesus has returned because EVERYBODY will know).
Matthew 24 also warns us that there will be those who try to convince us otherwise, that He has already returned, as well what we should do when we hear such messages about Him returning (see below in bold). Jesus has not returned to us yet or we would know that He has.
If you don't mind me asking, do you hold to the "Oneness" doctrine by any chance?
Thanks!
~Deut
.........Matthew 24
.........23 .If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
.........24 .For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
.........25 .Behold, I have told you in advance.
.........26 .So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
.........27 .For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
.........
Jesus told us that He was sending us ANOTHER Counselor (IOW, another Person, not the same Person in a different "outfit"), and that this other Person (God the HS) would testify about Him (God the Son) and remind us about everything that He taught us while He lived here among us.
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
Jesus lives in Heaven and remains in the form He left us in, IOW, He, the God/man, still has a physical body (albeit a glorified one), which would make the indwelling of believers a bit tough I would think
Also, He tells us clearly about His return to us and what to expect when He finally does, in Matthew 24. He says that it will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west (IOW, no one will have to tell anyone else that Jesus has returned because EVERYBODY will know).
Matthew 24 also warns us that there will be those who try to convince us otherwise, that He has already returned, as well what we should do when we hear such messages about Him returning (see below in bold). Jesus has not returned to us yet or we would know that He has.
If you don't mind me asking, do you hold to the "Oneness" doctrine by any chance?
Thanks!
~Deut
.........Matthew 24
.........23 .If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
.........24 .For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
.........25 .Behold, I have told you in advance.
.........26 .So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
.........27 .For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
.........
Are you trying to suggest that the difference between hell & heaven/ sheol & Paradise is just a couch? What difference does it make if people go to hell fire unconscious and others in Paradise couches, still unconscious? what is the purpose of couch if you can't feel it'c comfort, don't you know for an unconscious person, sleeping on metallic spikes and sleeping on a couch makes no difference?
Finally; was Jesus also unconscious on those couches since He promised to be with him (the thief)?why would Jesus, the creator of heavens and earth promise someone, knowing very well they won't experience it, did Jesus cheat? God forbid.
This is a very gross misrepresentation of truth. It is simply called lies.
Finally; was Jesus also unconscious on those couches since He promised to be with him (the thief)?why would Jesus, the creator of heavens and earth promise someone, knowing very well they won't experience it, did Jesus cheat? God forbid.
This is a very gross misrepresentation of truth. It is simply called lies.
Then why the great deception?
Jesus told us that He was sending us ANOTHER Counselor (IOW, another Person, not the same Person in a different "outfit"), and that this other Person (God the HS) would testify about Him (God the Son) and remind us about everything that He taught us while He lived here among us.
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
Jesus lives in Heaven and remains in the form He left us in, IOW, He, the God/man, still has a physical body (albeit a glorified one), which would make the indwelling of believers a bit tough I would think
Also, He tells us clearly about His return to us and what to expect when He finally does, in Matthew 24. He says that it will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west (IOW, no one will have to tell anyone else that Jesus has returned because EVERYBODY will know).
Matthew 24 also warns us that there will be those who try to convince us otherwise, that He has already returned, as well what we should do when we hear such messages about Him returning (see below in bold). Jesus has not returned to us yet or we would know that He has.
If you don't mind me asking, do you hold to the "Oneness" doctrine by any chance?
Thanks!
~Deut
.........Matthew 24
.........23 .If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
.........24 .For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
.........25 .Behold, I have told you in advance.
.........26 .So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
.........27 .For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
.........
Jesus told us that He was sending us ANOTHER Counselor (IOW, another Person, not the same Person in a different "outfit"), and that this other Person (God the HS) would testify about Him (God the Son) and remind us about everything that He taught us while He lived here among us.
.........John 14
.........16 ..I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever.
.........17 ..He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn’t see Him or know Him. But you do know Him,
.........because He remains with you and will be in you.
.........25 ..I have spoken these things to you while I remain with you.
.........26 ..But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of
.........everything I have told you.
Jesus lives in Heaven and remains in the form He left us in, IOW, He, the God/man, still has a physical body (albeit a glorified one), which would make the indwelling of believers a bit tough I would think
Also, He tells us clearly about His return to us and what to expect when He finally does, in Matthew 24. He says that it will be like lightning flashing from the east to the west (IOW, no one will have to tell anyone else that Jesus has returned because EVERYBODY will know).
Matthew 24 also warns us that there will be those who try to convince us otherwise, that He has already returned, as well what we should do when we hear such messages about Him returning (see below in bold). Jesus has not returned to us yet or we would know that He has.
If you don't mind me asking, do you hold to the "Oneness" doctrine by any chance?
Thanks!
~Deut
.........Matthew 24
.........23 .If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
.........24 .For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
.........25 .Behold, I have told you in advance.
.........26 .So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
.........27 .For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
.........
In John 14, as much as Jesus promises ANOTHER comforter, the correct understanding of that passage will be that Jesus claims to be the Holy spirit in that very text. Don't be fooled by the word 'another'. That text says:
1. The comforter was already there, living with the disciples
2. Jesus had to go for the comforter to come into them
3. Jesus said He will not leave them comfortless but will come to them shortly
4. Numerous passages, Jesus says He and the Father will come into them (disciples) and make their home with them
5. So many passages affirm that heaven is the heart of a believer- so Jesus being in heaven actually means He is in the hearts of believers.
These can not be two persons, just one person who was to go and come in another form hence the word 'another comforter'.
You say that Christ can not be in believers but one example to refute you:
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives lifed because of righteousness.
About end times false teachers- Jesus did not mean 2000 years later, end times started some 2000 years ago and false teachings has already taken root in the congregation and this is what i'm trying to undo. A clear example is the teaching about the second coming of Christ.
What will you say about these numerous texts about Christ's coming:
John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
Matt 26:64“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”e
Matt 16:28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Not only are Elijah and Moses conscious and aware, but they are WITH Jesus TALKING to Him.
Matthew 17
17 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, [a]let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Do you know the difference between a vision and a hallucination? The 2 men were real; standing (Luke 9:32) and talking. One of them, Moses, had died; he was dead.
Once upon a time one dead guy said to another dead guy, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
The other dead guy replied, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
The 2 dead guys were as awake and aware as the 5 currently living guys they were discussing.
... Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime ..." But wait a minute. Doesn't Ecc. 9:5 say that the dead know not anything? How can the rich man in hell remember if he knows not anything? The context of Ecclesiastes is "life under the sun". The dead "know not anything" regarding life under the sun. The living, on the other hand, "know that they will die" (9:5). The rich man in hell no longer had the "hope" that the living have in Ecclesiastes 9:4.
Once upon a time one dead guy said to another dead guy, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
The other dead guy replied, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
The 2 dead guys were as awake and aware as the 5 currently living guys they were discussing.
... Abraham said, "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime ..." But wait a minute. Doesn't Ecc. 9:5 say that the dead know not anything? How can the rich man in hell remember if he knows not anything? The context of Ecclesiastes is "life under the sun". The dead "know not anything" regarding life under the sun. The living, on the other hand, "know that they will die" (9:5). The rich man in hell no longer had the "hope" that the living have in Ecclesiastes 9:4.
Once upon a time, Jesus told many parables, among which was the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Many reject this story Jesus told as being a parable, though context places it among many other parables, and Scripture attests to the fact that Jesus spoke mainly in parables. Visions are instruments of Divine communication which I would not class as hallucinations.
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." (Matthew 13:10-17)
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." (Matthew 13:10-17)
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No one in the history of proving has ever proved that this is a parable.
Actually the context is the covetous Pharisees deriding Jesus. They had the bucks like the rich man. They didn't like the idea of not being able to serve God & mammon. They apparently made money teaching that it's OK to put away your wife and to marry her who has been put away. (vs 18, cf. Matt. 19:3-9)
Isaac and Ishmael buried Abraham in the cave of Machpelah. The Pharisees claimed Abraham as their father. And here "father Abraham" is, separated from his body, talking and reasoning with a Pharisee-like rich man. The rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes ... . This was before the resurrection of their bodies, because they both concurred that the 5 brothers were still living. Both of their bodies are buried and both of them are conscious. There is no justification for including these details in the story if they're not true. I don't know of a single parable that includes meaningless details.
I don't know of a single parable that contains proper names. This story has two, one of which occurs 200+ times and is non-fictional. Abraham plays a major role in redemptive history.
Why are you ascribing the appearance of Moses and Elijah as a vision? Nowhere in the text does it say it is a vision.
Look. I know this may sound condescending, but I think you know I would never do that to you. I think I understand the reason people don't want to face the teaching in the Bible that is really very clear, that says the lost will suffer eternally.
We have a woman in our Bible study group who very infrequently let's her guard down to show the immense amount of pain she continues to be in over the suicide death of her son 4 yrs ago. This past Wednesday she did in tears. Truly heartbreaking. This pain is not limited to his physical death.
For her, she is unable to get to a place where others have got, that the physically dead have no consciousness, and the spiritually dead will suffer eternally. Maybe it would be a blessing if she COULD believe it, but she cannot fool herself into doing so. And she has grave doubts about where her son is, and where he will be.
No one wants to think about even the wicked suffering horribly eternally. Our finite human minds simply cannot handle such a horror. I get that, and if the vast multitude of Christians are wrong on that count it would be fine with me.
So I don't know if this somehow relates to you and your very strident defense of soul sleep and annihilationism, but I truly hope you are not in a similar type pain.
I would ask you, even IF the account of Lazarus and the rich man WERE a parable, (I don't believe it is) what is the message Jesus is conveying with it?
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. Matt 17:9
Ed, you did insinuate that those who believe this story to be a parable do not believe the Bible, whereas the Bible does not tell us it is NOT a parable, so I do not understand where you get the idea it cannot be understood and accepted as one.
Jesus spoke this parable building upon His warning not to love money more than people. It is also a lesson about the coming judgment and eventual accounting of one’s actions.
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight." Luke 16:14-15
Ed, you did insinuate that those who believe this story to be a parable do not believe the Bible, whereas the Bible does not tell us it is NOT a parable, so I do not understand where you get the idea it cannot be understood and accepted as one.
Jesus spoke this parable building upon His warning not to love money more than people. It is also a lesson about the coming judgment and eventual accounting of one’s actions.
The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God's sight." Luke 16:14-15
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