Is Prosperity For The Present Church?

[DianaO]

And speaking of passive-aggressive!

Precisely my point. Thank you for that.

 

[UnderGrace]

I think humanists like Joel Osteen give that impression. That the very fact one is a Christian means God is an ATM machine that gives based on praying for a grand deposit. Lord knows the man has made a fortune telling readers that very thing.

Jesus did say whatever ye ask for in my name shall be granted to you. God wants us to prosper mainly because we can then do for others who have need.

This seems like a contradiction to me?

Have you been granted everything you have asked for?
Do you really think that is what Jesus meant here?
Why can't God just do for others too?


John 14:13-14
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

 

[DianaO]

This seems like a contradiction to me?

Have you been granted everything you have asked for?
Do you really think that is what Jesus meant here?
Why can't God just do for others too?


John 14:13-14
13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.

I think you're finding conflict where none is intended.

I give Jesus enough credit as God almighty in the flesh to have said what he meant and meant what he said. If you find John 14 to be quarrelsome that is not something you need take up with me.
And finally, and again I guess it need be said, I did not say God cannot do for others.

 

[UnderGrace]

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”

Concerning the above verse (verse 9), many argue that the riches referred to here are spiritual riches. But saying that will imply that the Apostle Paul meant;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was spiritually rich, yet for your sakes he became spiritually poor, that ye through his spiritual poverty might be spiritually rich.”

Of course, the above quotation can’t be farther from the truth. It is scripturally obvious that Jesus was never spiritually poor while he was here on earth. He couldn’t have been spiritually poor, after living a blameless, holy life… After healing all manners of sickness and diseases. And even after raising the dead. No. The true interpretation is;

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was materially rich, yet for your sakes he became materially poor, that ye through his material poverty might be materially rich”.

You are really not understanding this verse.

In context this had nothing to do with material wealth, and makes no sense to interpret that way in light of everything we know about who Jesus was and what He did.

Very simply Jesus had to veil His glory in order to dwell among mortal humanity (John 12:41) by simply taking on human form He became poor, yet it is by this very act that we have a share in Jesus’ eternal, heavenly wealth because He came and had a share in our poverty.

It is really wrong to spiritualize wealth and prosperity in this way.

 

[DianaO]

You are really not understanding this verse.

In context this had nothing to do with material wealth, and makes no sense to interpret that way in light of everything we know about who Jesus was and what He did.

Very simply Jesus had to veil His glory in order to dwell among mortal humanity (John 12:41) by simply taking on human form He became poor, yet it is by this very act that we have a share in Jesus’ eternal, heavenly wealth because He came and had a share in our poverty.

It is really wrong to spiritualize wealth and prosperity in this way.

Are you homeless?

 

[UnderGrace]

I think you're finding conflict where none is intended.

I give Jesus enough credit as God almighty in the flesh to have said what he meant and meant what he said. If you find John 14 to be quarrelsome that is not something you need take up with me.
And finally, and again I guess it need be said, I did not say God cannot do for others.

I was just asking for you to defend your understanding of this verse.

I have looked at it from different viewpoints and I will admit I am not completely sure, I tend to think this verse was meant for the apostles at that time when I think of.....

• Who said it?
• Who was it said to?
• What did it mean to the original listeners?
• How does it apply to us, if at all?

Plain everyday reality of the Christian life where some have more some have less tells me that there is more to John 14 than just a simple reading.

 

[UnderGrace]

Are you homeless?

By His grace, I have been able to work very hard for everything I have, and I think that God is okay with me making this statement of fact.

 

[DianaO]

By His grace, I have been able to work very hard for everything I have, and I think that God is okay with me making this statement of fact.

And you are indeed blessed. Hallelujah.

 

[Angela53510]

I was just asking for you to defend your understanding of this verse.

I have looked at it from different viewpoints and I will admit I am not completely sure, I tend to think this verse was meant for the apostles at that time when I think of.....

• Who said it?
• Who was it said to?
• What did it mean to the original listeners?
• How does it apply to us, if at all?

Plain everyday reality of the Christian life where some have more some have less tells me that there is more to John 14 than just a simple reading.

I don't think she wants to engage in actually talking about the theology or Scriptures, from what I have seen. Mostly just bait and bash people. Or, maybe she really doesn't know much about the Scriptures.

I do agree with what you have written, Undergrace. You have said some good things!

 

[DianaO]

I was just asking for you to defend your understanding of this verse.

I have looked at it from different viewpoints and I will admit I am not completely sure, I tend to think this verse was meant for the apostles at that time when I think of.....

• Who said it?
• Who was it said to?
• What did it mean to the original listeners?
• How does it apply to us, if at all?

Plain everyday reality of the Christian life where some have more some have less tells me that there is more to John 14 than just a simple reading.

I thank you for your elaborating on your original thoughts.
I do ask your forgiveness if my posts prior to that seemed harsh. I seek community and understanding in peace.
I think Jesus was telling a poor people,who were under the yoke of Rome at the time he was walking the earth, that they were more than the slaves they were thought to be under the rule of what was "god" Caesar at the time.
I think this is why he encouraged them to faith in themselves. And in God. And I think that is why he told them that whatever they asked in his name would be granted them.
Think back to the time of Moshe. The Hebrew people were under the yoke of Egypt and yet they prayed Messiah, Savior, would come and set them free.

I think that those people to whom the Christ spoke in the new testament's Palestine remembered their history and exodus from Egypt. And that is why he encouraged them to pray for salvation again. Would people enslaved under Rome think to ask for great riches? Or would they ask for salvation from great oppression and terror?

Today, those who are in the faith of the Christ are not under the yoke of the Egyptian Pharaoh's nor the Roman Caesar's. However, as we know wherever we are in the world, we are still under the command of government of some sort. Perhaps we can read the new testament teachings from long ago as asking God for an exodus from our plight, unique to the individual in the faith, as God wills since he knows where we are at all times and what we also do need at all times.
And being he is omnibenevolent, he gives to those who are not in the faith as well. Perhaps that is what leads the needy to find him.

 

[DianaO]

I don't think she wants to engage in actually talking about the theology or Scriptures, from what I have seen. Mostly just bait and bash people. Or, maybe she really doesn't know much about the Scriptures.

I do agree with what you have written, Undergrace. You have said some good things!

I don't appreciate your tone. And I venture to say you are very upset for your own reasons. Which is without reason.
I am not your enemy. No matter how you try to bait others to agree to the contrary and join you in your decision that I am so. You see, I say this because you write what you did knowing I would read you. If you imagined I had set you to ignore, then you think you are speaking to those you hope to inspire and convene to your way of thinking about me.
Your judgment does not speak to my actual truth and motive for responding to you as I did. Then and now.
I am a child of God just as you profess to be.
Why would you judge me because I do not correspond to your thoughts on the bible?

 

[UnderGrace]

I don't think she wants to engage in actually talking about the theology or Scriptures, from what I have seen. Mostly just bait and bash people. Or, maybe she really doesn't know much about the Scriptures.

I do agree with what you have written, Undergrace. You have said some good things!

Well I definitely will take that as high praise!! Thank you

All we can do is try ...just trying to save people from what can be a very sorrowful outcome based on wrong belief.

 

[DianaO]

Well I definitely will take that as high praise!! Thank you

All we can do is try ...just trying to save people from what can be a very sorrowful outcome based on wrong belief.

Did it ever occur to you that as you judge so too are you to be judged?

What if you are that one which is living in "wrong belief"?

 

[UnderGrace]

I thank you for your elaborating on your original thoughts.
I do ask your forgiveness if my posts prior to that seemed harsh. I seek community and understanding in peace.
I think Jesus was telling a poor people,who were under the yoke of Rome at the time he was walking the earth, that they were more than the slaves they were thought to be under the rule of what was "god" Caesar at the time.
I think this is why he encouraged them to faith in themselves. And in God. And I think that is why he told them that whatever they asked in his name would be granted them.
Think back to the time of Moshe. The Hebrew people were under the yoke of Egypt and yet they prayed Messiah, Savior, would come and set them free.

I think that those people to whom the Christ spoke in the new testament's Palestine remembered their history and exodus from Egypt. And that is why he encouraged them to pray for salvation again. Would people enslaved under Rome think to ask for great riches? Or would they ask for salvation from great oppression and terror?

Today, those who are in the faith of the Christ are not under the yoke of the Egyptian Pharaoh's nor the Roman Caesar's. However, as we know wherever we are in the world, we are still under the command of government of some sort. Perhaps we can read the new testament teachings from long ago as asking God for an exodus from our plight, unique to the individual in the faith, as God wills since he knows where we are at all times and what we also do need at all times.
And being he is omnibenevolent, he gives to those who are not in the faith as well. Perhaps that is what leads the needy to find him.

No problem, just part of written dialogue where one cannot see facial expressions, tone, body language etc.,

I understand better now, I agree He meets our needs for sure but I think this is different than what the OP is proposing, we will see how he responds to my post if he sees it.

I was raised with a strong Protestant ethic, even though I am Italian and raised Catholic where endurance, sacrifice and hard work is everything.

 

[UnderGrace]

Did it ever occur to you that as you judge so too are you to be judged?

What if you are that one which is living in "wrong belief"?

Sorry, it was meant as a general statement about Jesus promising wealth and prosperity for all believers not to you in particular, I am always aware that there are many guest that read these posts.

Well I only know a little bit, but I do know for sure that wealth, health and prosperity are not what the Good News is about, absolutely and completely. So on this point I stand firm.

 

[DianaO]

Sorry, it was meant as a general statement about Jesus promising wealth and prosperity for all believers not to you in particular, I am always aware that there are many guest that read these posts.

Well I only know a little bit, but I do know for sure that wealth, health and prosperity are not what the Good News is about, absolutely and completely. So on this point I stand firm.

As is your right in covenant with the master.
Imagine. Good news of salvation for that homeless man I gifted food, water, and money today, is not that tiny bit of prosperity he received by God's grace to my life and my passing it on.
Imagine, that ride I gave a woman who was very pregnant waiting for a bus in high summer was not a God given gracious gift of health to her and her precious one to come, when the bus had not yet arrived and she stood weeping at the bus stop before and when I arrived.
Imagine, when the job I gave to that Vietnam veteran at one of my blessings was not God's gracious blessing of prosperity that may be paid forward .
Imagine, God is more than you think is right.

 

[UnderGrace]

As is your right in covenant with the master.
Imagine. Good news of salvation for that homeless man I gifted food, water, and money today, is not that tiny bit of prosperity he received by God's grace to my life and my passing it on.
Imagine, that ride I gave a woman who was very pregnant waiting for a bus in high summer was not a God given gracious gift of health to her and her precious one to come, when the bus had not yet arrived and she stood weeping at the bus stop before and when I arrived.
Imagine, when the job I gave to that Vietnam veteran at one of my blessings was not God's gracious blessing of prosperity that may be paid forward .
Imagine, God is more than you think is right.

I see these as you living out your Christian walk and demonstrating your faith to the world, as your are able to do based on what you have in this life no more, no less.

 

[DianaO]

Let me say to all, for all time, for all words I myself have posted.

 

[pottersclay]

We are not to live off of God's word but to live by it.
All were born for a purpose and that purpose is willed by God.
The preaching of the gospel, the teaching of the gospel should come from a heart that is concerned about there brothers and sisters eternal destination.
Should have nothing to do with weights and measures. Freely you received freely give.
Mammon changes a person it has no business in the house of God except for helping the needy and hungry. Jesus said his house is a house of prayer but ...because of money and barter it became a den of thieves.
We are commanded and ordained by God to speak his truth. Not of men.
The word is occupy not occupation if you believe in what you teach and preach then you should also believe that God will supply.
Where God guides he will supply.
I can say with a clear mind and head and with no conviction of the heart if you are a hireling....God hates you.
Weather rich or poor famous or not it's all Gods purpose. How you got that way is between you and him.

 

[emekrus]

You are really not understanding this verse.

In context this had nothing to do with material wealth, and makes no sense to interpret that way in light of everything we know about who Jesus was and what He did.

Very simply Jesus had to veil His glory in order to dwell among mortal humanity (John 12:41) by simply taking on human form He became poor, yet it is by this very act that we have a share in Jesus’ eternal, heavenly wealth because He came and had a share in our poverty.

It is really wrong to spiritualize wealth and prosperity in this way.

If this is what you believe the above scripture is saying, then go ahead and say resounding amen to my prayers.

I mean if you believe for real that material prosperity is not for you:

"Let it be unto you according to your believe, in Jesus Name!