Is Prosperity For The Present Church?
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amen, and we ought all to value skillfulness with the sword above aggression with it 
At the last thus also mark where one would be rushed in this guard, so that you cannot bring any element into the before, then shoot forward just then into his face with a step forward in the long point, and in this shooting forward turn the long edge against his oncoming strike and, as soon as you engage, wind on his sword to the next opening.
- Joachim Meyer
- Joachim Meyer
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No, the letter was written by Paul, a servant of the Lord. He said his material wealth is like a yo-yo, up and down. He tells his followers to be content with what they have. Paul would not squander wealth while there were those in need around him.
You seem to be drawing solid conclusions based off misquoting scriptures. Anyone, Christian or not, will start to trust wealth if they held it any length of time. It is our human nature. Anyone that goes out and buys a mansion of fancy car while many around them suffered need, will have to answer to God for that. These are common sense principles and are not hard to discern.
You seem to be drawing solid conclusions based off misquoting scriptures. Anyone, Christian or not, will start to trust wealth if they held it any length of time. It is our human nature. Anyone that goes out and buys a mansion of fancy car while many around them suffered need, will have to answer to God for that. These are common sense principles and are not hard to discern.
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If prosperity is of the protestant church then all of God's people will be prosperous. And many are that are not of the president church. But I think the question might be is prosperity for everyone...?... No. Neither is all that is in the protestant church prosperous (here in this life). The Scriptures say the rain fall on the just and the unjust...
I am rich compared to someone in a 3rd world county. I own a small/modest house; worth under 100,000. I have cloths I give to charity. I am poor compared to someone who lives in a house over 100,000.00 and could actually retire in live here in America.
Yet, G-d has some children in a 3rd world country living in a hut and they rake the dirt floor, or here in America holding up sings "will work food".... and G-d provides for them day by day. Now that is faith!
G-d does provide!! Some are rich, some of us are rich comparatively. G-d is ALWAYS GOOD!!!
No one can ever tell me people are poor because of lack of faith!!!! I do not understand why the evil are millionaires, some Christians are, and why there is in between, or below the bottom. But I do know it will all be made right because I know G-d.
So am I poor or rich?
I am rich compared to someone in a 3rd world county. I own a small/modest house; worth under 100,000. I have cloths I give to charity. I am poor compared to someone who lives in a house over 100,000.00 and could actually retire in live here in America.
Yet, G-d has some children in a 3rd world country living in a hut and they rake the dirt floor, or here in America holding up sings "will work food".... and G-d provides for them day by day. Now that is faith!
G-d does provide!! Some are rich, some of us are rich comparatively. G-d is ALWAYS GOOD!!!
No one can ever tell me people are poor because of lack of faith!!!! I do not understand why the evil are millionaires, some Christians are, and why there is in between, or below the bottom. But I do know it will all be made right because I know G-d.
So am I poor or rich?
Dear Brothers and Sisters in the Lord,
It's ok if you don't accept the prosperity doctrine. But all the same we must remember that we are still brothers and sisters.
I am actually sharing my sermons with the intention of helping. I don't have any other hidden agenda.
The motive behind my teaching is simply this:
It's all working for me by the grace of God...
Let me share my secrets of all-round success with my brethren so they can succeed as well.
Then for clarification.
I don't receive my wealth by cajoling anyone. Instead I do more of giving and helping. But its just that the more I give, the more I receive because that's what the word of God says.
Then as for receiving. I receive from the Lord primarily through the works of my hand.
I am a freelance multi-lingual programmer, when I am not ministering. And of course, you would agree with me, that making money from programming is not a light thing.
When you work with programs such as Java, PHP and Python, you can't possibly be said to be receiving money for jam.
But I thank God for the great empowerment and opportunities he has given me to make wealth. I thank God for blessing me to be a blessing.
It's ok if you don't accept the prosperity doctrine. But all the same we must remember that we are still brothers and sisters.
I am actually sharing my sermons with the intention of helping. I don't have any other hidden agenda.
The motive behind my teaching is simply this:
It's all working for me by the grace of God...
Let me share my secrets of all-round success with my brethren so they can succeed as well.
Then for clarification.
I don't receive my wealth by cajoling anyone. Instead I do more of giving and helping. But its just that the more I give, the more I receive because that's what the word of God says.
Then as for receiving. I receive from the Lord primarily through the works of my hand.
I am a freelance multi-lingual programmer, when I am not ministering. And of course, you would agree with me, that making money from programming is not a light thing.
When you work with programs such as Java, PHP and Python, you can't possibly be said to be receiving money for jam.
But I thank God for the great empowerment and opportunities he has given me to make wealth. I thank God for blessing me to be a blessing.
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While you are sitting on your wealth, what do you do about those around you in dire need of help. I know you live in Africa and the very needy are not far from you. As soon as I start accumulating more than I need, I start asking God where He wants me to put it. The poor are always around us.
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I will say this for you. You remain polite and show Grace to those, like myself, that vehemently disagree with your doctrine.
If you are blessed with resources from the Lord then I would say you ought to quietly bless others with them. Tell them how Jesus is THE Savior. Give them the Gospel unto Salvation. Pray for them. But please, don't even hint at the idea that by accepting Jesus they will receive material wealth here on Earth. If that happens to them, praise Jesus! But that MUST NOT be the incentive to receive Him.
If you are blessed with resources from the Lord then I would say you ought to quietly bless others with them. Tell them how Jesus is THE Savior. Give them the Gospel unto Salvation. Pray for them. But please, don't even hint at the idea that by accepting Jesus they will receive material wealth here on Earth. If that happens to them, praise Jesus! But that MUST NOT be the incentive to receive Him.
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harmful doctrine remains harmful doctrine no matter how polite a person is
this doctrine poisons the well of the living waters and causes deceived Christians to seek after material gain instead of after Christ
poison mushrooms can taste as good as edible mushrooms, but if you eat them instead of the good ones, it's usually all over
the delivery of a lie is still a lie
and Christians can always work on their delivery of the truth
this doctrine poisons the well of the living waters and causes deceived Christians to seek after material gain instead of after Christ
poison mushrooms can taste as good as edible mushrooms, but if you eat them instead of the good ones, it's usually all over
the delivery of a lie is still a lie
and Christians can always work on their delivery of the truth
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here's an interesting review of the prosperity gospel with the bonus feature of a balanced view on what scripture says
prosperity gospel preachers make the claims that as your faith increases, so will your wealth, all the while promising hearers of this
'doctrine', that if they will give to the preacher, God will reward them according to the amount they give
if you have the time (let's face it. if you are a regular on CC, you most likely have the time but no worries if you don't want to bother)
it's a 3 part series and covers the ground quite nicely. sourced at the end and click for the series
One error Christians can make in their understanding of money is to think wealth is inherently sinful, and creating and accruing wealth is contrary to God’s plan. In fact, wealth creation and proper stewardship are consistent with human flourishing.
A twin error to the disparagement of wealth is the idea that faithfulness to God necessarily results in material prosperity. This second error is often called the prosperity gospel, or the health-and-wealth gospel.
In their book, When Helping Hurts, Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert note,
David Wayne Jones and Russell S. Woodbridge explain in their book, Health, Wealth, and Happiness, how important it is for Christians to have a right understanding of the relationship between faith and prosperity. The direct connection between faith and wealth described by prosperity gospel preachers fails to provide an adequate basis for understanding why faithful Christians sometimes suffer, or why the unrighteous sometimes prosper.
That right understanding between faith and prosperity is what my three-part series seeks to set straight. This first post explains the prosperity gospel. Subsequent posts detail the biblical and economic responses to this teaching.
source
prosperity gospel preachers make the claims that as your faith increases, so will your wealth, all the while promising hearers of this
'doctrine', that if they will give to the preacher, God will reward them according to the amount they give
if you have the time (let's face it. if you are a regular on CC, you most likely have the time but no worries if you don't want to bother)
it's a 3 part series and covers the ground quite nicely. sourced at the end and click for the series
One error Christians can make in their understanding of money is to think wealth is inherently sinful, and creating and accruing wealth is contrary to God’s plan. In fact, wealth creation and proper stewardship are consistent with human flourishing.
A twin error to the disparagement of wealth is the idea that faithfulness to God necessarily results in material prosperity. This second error is often called the prosperity gospel, or the health-and-wealth gospel.
In their book, When Helping Hurts, Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert note,
At its core, the health-and-wealth gospel teaches that God rewards increasing levels of faith with greater amounts of wealth.
In other words, wealth and holiness are intrinsically and linearly connected: the more holy you are, the richer you will be.David Wayne Jones and Russell S. Woodbridge explain in their book, Health, Wealth, and Happiness, how important it is for Christians to have a right understanding of the relationship between faith and prosperity. The direct connection between faith and wealth described by prosperity gospel preachers fails to provide an adequate basis for understanding why faithful Christians sometimes suffer, or why the unrighteous sometimes prosper.
That right understanding between faith and prosperity is what my three-part series seeks to set straight. This first post explains the prosperity gospel. Subsequent posts detail the biblical and economic responses to this teaching.
source
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I think you're misconstruing my words.
I did not say the Christian must prosper. I believe it is wrong to think Christians aren't allowed to prosper due to some interpretation of scriptures that let someone believe that way.
Which is why I suggested anyone who thinks it is wrong for a Christian to prosper, or have money, or work to acquire financial security, should give poverty a try. Because really the argument that prosperity is wrong for the church gives only one option to the contrary.
I did not say the Christian must prosper. I believe it is wrong to think Christians aren't allowed to prosper due to some interpretation of scriptures that let someone believe that way.
Which is why I suggested anyone who thinks it is wrong for a Christian to prosper, or have money, or work to acquire financial security, should give poverty a try. Because really the argument that prosperity is wrong for the church gives only one option to the contrary.
I have read this entire thread, and don't remember one person saying it was wrong to have money, and not to work and put money aside. Of course, you should do that if God leads you to. And yes, that will lead to more giving, but not pressured by some charlatan on TV or at a outreach or meeting.
The objection to the Prosperty gospel, is that it brings condemnation down on Christians who are honest and faithful, but are also poor. It is a Judgment on their standing with God.
Further, when it becomes the focus of life, money is the root of all evil. It is not about having money, but how do you use it? And how much of your time do you spend obsessing about it, when you have ENOUGH!
Finally, the biggest objection, is that the Word Faith teachers with their sowing and reaping, or planting seeds, con people who can barely afford it, out of their money. This is especially heinous in Africa, where there is no social welfare system, and giving up your goat so you will get two goats ends up giving you starvation, for your whole family.
If evangelist preaching the gospel just presents the pure gospel, and don't offer monetary rewards for coming to Christ, there is no problem. I knew a woman in seminary, and they got conned into giving all their retirement savings to some Word Faith con artist. They waited and waited for their blessing, but instead her husband lost her job. So they had nothing.
She decided to take some courses, and learn what God really says in the Bible. And that is the point, isn't it? God never promises health and wealth anywhere in the Bible. That's just bad exegesis and hermeneutics. I fight that wherever I see it.
Our relationship with God should be based on who he is, not on what we can get! My husband and I have lived through lean times, and times where we were blessed. We were never disappointed if we didn't have enough money, although we have certainly praised God for coming through for us in a hard time. We just kept serving and loving God. Anything else is just false doctrine. Too bad so many have been sucked into that dark void of Word Faith, and come out damaged and hurting!
PS. Again, we are not poor today, but I would not call us wealthy, either. Try, content! Like Paul says!
The objection to the Prosperty gospel, is that it brings condemnation down on Christians who are honest and faithful, but are also poor. It is a Judgment on their standing with God.
Further, when it becomes the focus of life, money is the root of all evil. It is not about having money, but how do you use it? And how much of your time do you spend obsessing about it, when you have ENOUGH!
Finally, the biggest objection, is that the Word Faith teachers with their sowing and reaping, or planting seeds, con people who can barely afford it, out of their money. This is especially heinous in Africa, where there is no social welfare system, and giving up your goat so you will get two goats ends up giving you starvation, for your whole family.
If evangelist preaching the gospel just presents the pure gospel, and don't offer monetary rewards for coming to Christ, there is no problem. I knew a woman in seminary, and they got conned into giving all their retirement savings to some Word Faith con artist. They waited and waited for their blessing, but instead her husband lost her job. So they had nothing.
She decided to take some courses, and learn what God really says in the Bible. And that is the point, isn't it? God never promises health and wealth anywhere in the Bible. That's just bad exegesis and hermeneutics. I fight that wherever I see it.
Our relationship with God should be based on who he is, not on what we can get! My husband and I have lived through lean times, and times where we were blessed. We were never disappointed if we didn't have enough money, although we have certainly praised God for coming through for us in a hard time. We just kept serving and loving God. Anything else is just false doctrine. Too bad so many have been sucked into that dark void of Word Faith, and come out damaged and hurting!
PS. Again, we are not poor today, but I would not call us wealthy, either. Try, content! Like Paul says!
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I do agree with this statement. If a person prospers because they have been endowed with whatever abilities, strengths and they work hard and put the abilities to good use this is not wrong. I think this is true for all people Christian or not.
Both Christians and non-Christians have varying amounts of abilities.
Both Christians and non-Christians can encounter financial difficulties based on things outside of their control or even within their control, if they have not been good stewards.
The problem is when people preach that by the very fact that one is a Christian they will be blessed and prosper, then they are sending the wrong message.
There is a lot of personal effort that goes into acquiring and maintaining wealth, but prosperity teachers seem to want to deny this it seems to me.
Both Christians and non-Christians have varying amounts of abilities.
Both Christians and non-Christians can encounter financial difficulties based on things outside of their control or even within their control, if they have not been good stewards.
The problem is when people preach that by the very fact that one is a Christian they will be blessed and prosper, then they are sending the wrong message.
There is a lot of personal effort that goes into acquiring and maintaining wealth, but prosperity teachers seem to want to deny this it seems to me.
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Well,
I love your advice. If you can go through my posts you'll see it's not just a one sided message. There is time for everything. I don't use prosperity as incentive for people to receive Christ. Rather I tell those already saved that there is definite prosperity in Christ Jesus-- Earthly and Heavenly-- because it is actually my experience and that of many other believers that believes and practice the same way I do.
You see from what I have discovered, most folks that are against the prosperity gospel actually preach the prosperity gospel inadvertently; when they say if you have wealth, give it out. From my personal experience and that of many I know practice true giving, you don't actually give as a lifestyle, as scriptures admonishes and get poorer for it. Rather you get richer.
Richer I mean, is both spiritually and naturally.
So for someone to be preaching giving and at the same time claim poverty, actually flabbergasts me.
Because the last time I checked Jesus' teaching on giving, he says, give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down and shaking together shall men give unto your bosom.
He didn't say give and you shall become poor because you don't need the riches here on earth. And this seem to be the message many are preaching.
Like I said before, if anyone thinks prosperity on earth is not for him, there is no problem. Let it be unto them according to their believe. And at the same time let it also be unto me according to my believe.
I love your advice. If you can go through my posts you'll see it's not just a one sided message. There is time for everything. I don't use prosperity as incentive for people to receive Christ. Rather I tell those already saved that there is definite prosperity in Christ Jesus-- Earthly and Heavenly-- because it is actually my experience and that of many other believers that believes and practice the same way I do.
You see from what I have discovered, most folks that are against the prosperity gospel actually preach the prosperity gospel inadvertently; when they say if you have wealth, give it out. From my personal experience and that of many I know practice true giving, you don't actually give as a lifestyle, as scriptures admonishes and get poorer for it. Rather you get richer.
Richer I mean, is both spiritually and naturally.
So for someone to be preaching giving and at the same time claim poverty, actually flabbergasts me.
Because the last time I checked Jesus' teaching on giving, he says, give and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down and shaking together shall men give unto your bosom.
He didn't say give and you shall become poor because you don't need the riches here on earth. And this seem to be the message many are preaching.
Like I said before, if anyone thinks prosperity on earth is not for him, there is no problem. Let it be unto them according to their believe. And at the same time let it also be unto me according to my believe.
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That's true. Had I meant to say someone in this thread had said it was wrong to have money I would have used their name. Since I never did do that that would mean I never did say that.
I think this discussion would go much better if false implications would stop. I know there are those who like to play the passive aggressive card in forums, not you, if I meant you I would use your name. However, that isn't of Christ and should be evident in itself.
Talk about the thread subject and what someone actually says. That is just simple respect.
I think this discussion would go much better if false implications would stop. I know there are those who like to play the passive aggressive card in forums, not you, if I meant you I would use your name. However, that isn't of Christ and should be evident in itself.
Talk about the thread subject and what someone actually says. That is just simple respect.
I think humanists like Joel Osteen give that impression. That the very fact one is a Christian means God is an ATM machine that gives based on praying for a grand deposit. Lord knows the man has made a fortune telling readers that very thing.
Jesus did say whatever ye ask for in my name shall be granted to you. God wants us to prosper mainly because we can then do for others who have need.
Jesus did say whatever ye ask for in my name shall be granted to you. God wants us to prosper mainly because we can then do for others who have need.
And speaking of passive-aggressive! You can say a lot of things about me, but passive aggressive is not one of those things. I would even say "aggressive" works, although I hope I have improved.
So, my last post was directed to what you said. Hence, I answered you! I think you have a lot to learn about forum etiquette.
And, delighted to see your thoughts on Osteen. Now that is a person that not only doesn't preach the gospel, but doesn't even know the Bible. Even publicly, he messes things up. Like saying Samson was in the Lion's Den, I saw in a clip. Or something similar. And yes, we all make mistakes, but I have read some of his sermons that were on-line, and the Bible verse was just tacked onto the end, with no connecting to what he was preaching. But then again, hard to preach a doctrine tht doesn't exist in the Bible.
So, my last post was directed to what you said. Hence, I answered you! I think you have a lot to learn about forum etiquette.
And, delighted to see your thoughts on Osteen. Now that is a person that not only doesn't preach the gospel, but doesn't even know the Bible. Even publicly, he messes things up. Like saying Samson was in the Lion's Den, I saw in a clip. Or something similar. And yes, we all make mistakes, but I have read some of his sermons that were on-line, and the Bible verse was just tacked onto the end, with no connecting to what he was preaching. But then again, hard to preach a doctrine tht doesn't exist in the Bible.