Not By Works
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Go rebuke Moses and Paul, since your problem is with them. Do you know who they are? Between the two of them, they wrote 18 books of the Bible. Just how much of the Bible do you reject, any ways? As to James... how many orphans and widows do you look after? I am still waiting for an answer to this question, you know.
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c...,
We don't know what previous work was performed by the thief. It would seem he showed much familiarity with/about Christ which would suggest he had fallen away after living righteously.
In any event he was not ...yet...under the new covenant requiring elements of the new covenant to be applicable to him...i.e...baptism.
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Lol..morning magenta 
Got any coffee for me? I am just getting ready to leave for work -
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WHHAAATTTT? The heck??
Most likely the thief on the cross had a lifestyle of theft (just guessing here)..he probably had "familiarity" with Jesus from the "hot news" Jesus had been or possibly heard of him for the 3 yrs Jesus was in ministry..(not that he had previously lived a righteous life and fell away).he became "under the new law" when He acknowlege Jesus for who he is...
I think youre assuming about the thiefs previous lifestyle but obviously it doesnt matter..what matters is that he looked at Jesus.."truth" was revealed and on that very DAY the thief was with Jesus in paradise..nothimg bout baptism or whatever....
Most likely the thief on the cross had a lifestyle of theft (just guessing here)..he probably had "familiarity" with Jesus from the "hot news" Jesus had been or possibly heard of him for the 3 yrs Jesus was in ministry..(not that he had previously lived a righteous life and fell away).he became "under the new law" when He acknowlege Jesus for who he is...
I think youre assuming about the thiefs previous lifestyle but obviously it doesnt matter..what matters is that he looked at Jesus.."truth" was revealed and on that very DAY the thief was with Jesus in paradise..nothimg bout baptism or whatever....
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Good morning, precious Jewel Got any coffee for me? I am just getting ready to leave for work
Got any coffee for me? I am just getting ready to leave for work
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If God wanted us to know what you are implying about the thief we would know the truth as it would be written in the the bible. It seems you are trying to make a case about something with no proof of your observations.
I think your interpretation is a stretch of the imagination and I have heard you imply these things before.
God bless!
I think your interpretation is a stretch of the imagination and I have heard you imply these things before.
God bless!
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Thank you for clearing this up and I will chalk it down as perhaps my jumping a bit too soon. Truly the cults are insidious destroyers of man's souls and are usually filled with converts of churches that don't bother to disciple them as they should. And yes, being in our 60's does explain a lot!!!
I am familiar with the Tanner's work and possess some of their material.
I am familiar with the Tanner's work and possess some of their material.
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Hello Preston Speculating can be fun, but also misleading, even if interesting. Since many Jews were being baptised in Jesus' time, the thief could number among them, though we do not even know if he was a Jew. Also, he could have known something about Jesus without necessarily having submitted to the teachings at any time. We simply do not know
Speculating can be fun, but also misleading, even if interesting. Since many Jews were being baptised in Jesus' time, the thief could number among them, though we do not even know if he was a Jew. Also, he could have known something about Jesus without necessarily having submitted to the teachings at any time. We simply do not know -
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I agree with you and also ask the same questions.
From my experience and interaction I have noticed the following.
They do not quantify the number and very rarely qualify the works required.
The majority of the time if you talk about sheep and goats they quote back
Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
(Luke 6:46; 13:26, 27)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
How those 2 relate I have no idea.
The difference between the 2 is that Jesus knew the sheep and vice versa, the goats were rejected because they did not do because they did not know Jesus.
Both call him Lord yet two was rejected.
The sheep asked "When did we? As did the goats.
So the sheep had good works, goats no works.
The sheep seem surprised.
I think they did do what Jesus because it was in their spiritual DNA. The Holy Spirit working in them to conform them to the image of Jesus, to help others out of LOVE.
The goats didn't because they do not love Jesus.
Legalists say "You must keep the commandments of Jesus to be saved"
When you actually look at it Jesus said "If you love me you will"
He also said "Love God and love others"
To love by implication involves relationship.
No love, no relationship.
Works are then to earn something we already have when it comes God.
Then we see that other things need to be done to be saved, water baptism, Holy Spirit baptism (heard that a few times, no idea what it means) keep the Sabbath, read your Bible every, quiet time every day, if for a period of time you do not forgive then you will not be and off to hell and the list could go on.
With regards to sin it amazes me how they ludicrousy focus on the big ones, like murder, rape, adultery and so on.
They say "So it's ok for a believer to do the above and they will still be saved?
Really?
Yet they neglect things like gossip, envy, jealousy, dissension.
Paul says
1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (unrighteous = non believers)
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
He is saying "You are belivers, now righteous, now walk in it"
The same applies to the so called minor things that legalists never address.
With regards of the number of sins they can't answer that either.
They quote sins of commission but neglect sins of omission.
Just like the goats did, that is why they are rejected.
They say sins of omission are not sins because we did not know that we did sin in that way.
That is not going to cut it when Jesus judged.
As the goats will find out.
Then they quote Heb:10-26.
Willfully sinning
If a person has a problem with a sin pattern that they can't overcome then salvation is in jeopardy.
All they see is an affect.
Yet they have no interest in looking at what is the cause of the effect.
They are written off.
There is no desire to help, walk with and get to know the person and the advice is "Just stop it"
This makes my blood boil.
Jesus dealt with my sever gambling addiction.
He did so by revealing the cause the affect.
I won't go into it fully but a lot of healing was needed.
But more significant was that he had to work in me to bring me to the point that I am loved by the Father, loved by him, I was secure, accepted.
When I truly understood this I was able to forgive my sexual abuser (Christian foster dad and a mother that threw me out when I was 13 and shocking memories as a child)
He healed me of all such things, reassured me that he is not the same as my life experiences. He takes me like I am.
Unlike those who had a major influence in my life that was contrary to the love of God.
Sorry for the long post.
Ranted and gone off in a tangent.
From my experience and interaction I have noticed the following.
They do not quantify the number and very rarely qualify the works required.
The majority of the time if you talk about sheep and goats they quote back
Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
(Luke 6:46; 13:26, 27)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
How those 2 relate I have no idea.
The difference between the 2 is that Jesus knew the sheep and vice versa, the goats were rejected because they did not do because they did not know Jesus.
Both call him Lord yet two was rejected.
The sheep asked "When did we? As did the goats.
So the sheep had good works, goats no works.
The sheep seem surprised.
I think they did do what Jesus because it was in their spiritual DNA. The Holy Spirit working in them to conform them to the image of Jesus, to help others out of LOVE.
The goats didn't because they do not love Jesus.
Legalists say "You must keep the commandments of Jesus to be saved"
When you actually look at it Jesus said "If you love me you will"
He also said "Love God and love others"
To love by implication involves relationship.
No love, no relationship.
Works are then to earn something we already have when it comes God.
Then we see that other things need to be done to be saved, water baptism, Holy Spirit baptism (heard that a few times, no idea what it means) keep the Sabbath, read your Bible every, quiet time every day, if for a period of time you do not forgive then you will not be and off to hell and the list could go on.
With regards to sin it amazes me how they ludicrousy focus on the big ones, like murder, rape, adultery and so on.
They say "So it's ok for a believer to do the above and they will still be saved?
Really?
Yet they neglect things like gossip, envy, jealousy, dissension.
Paul says
1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (unrighteous = non believers)
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
He is saying "You are belivers, now righteous, now walk in it"
The same applies to the so called minor things that legalists never address.
With regards of the number of sins they can't answer that either.
They quote sins of commission but neglect sins of omission.
Just like the goats did, that is why they are rejected.
They say sins of omission are not sins because we did not know that we did sin in that way.
That is not going to cut it when Jesus judged.
As the goats will find out.
Then they quote Heb:10-26.
Willfully sinning
If a person has a problem with a sin pattern that they can't overcome then salvation is in jeopardy.
All they see is an affect.
Yet they have no interest in looking at what is the cause of the effect.
They are written off.
There is no desire to help, walk with and get to know the person and the advice is "Just stop it"
This makes my blood boil.
Jesus dealt with my sever gambling addiction.
He did so by revealing the cause the affect.
I won't go into it fully but a lot of healing was needed.
But more significant was that he had to work in me to bring me to the point that I am loved by the Father, loved by him, I was secure, accepted.
When I truly understood this I was able to forgive my sexual abuser (Christian foster dad and a mother that threw me out when I was 13 and shocking memories as a child)
He healed me of all such things, reassured me that he is not the same as my life experiences. He takes me like I am.
Unlike those who had a major influence in my life that was contrary to the love of God.
Sorry for the long post.
Ranted and gone off in a tangent.
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Yeh I've been struggling the last few days.
I see responses and I have no idea who the responses are to.
I really am not a fan of ignore but alas I have a couple on ignore.
Placed over the last couple of weeks.
I have to be honest it does break my heart to do so and I feel bad.
So it's a last resort for me, it really is.
I am a softy, forever hoping for a breakthrough.
But coming to realise and discern those who want to discuss will do (even if we don't agree) and those who do not.
As I've said before, God says "Come let us reason"
I see responses and I have no idea who the responses are to.
I really am not a fan of ignore but alas I have a couple on ignore.
Placed over the last couple of weeks.
I have to be honest it does break my heart to do so and I feel bad.
So it's a last resort for me, it really is.
I am a softy, forever hoping for a breakthrough.
But coming to realise and discern those who want to discuss will do (even if we don't agree) and those who do not.
As I've said before, God says "Come let us reason"
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Listening and Doing
19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speakand slow to become angry,20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom,and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as PURE and FAULTLESS is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
YOU JUST NEED TO ACCEPT AND NOT REJECT.
YOUR QUESTION IS NONSENSE BECAUSE GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART.
WHATEVER IS "DONE" THROUGH "FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE" IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.(galatians 5:6)
New International Version 1984 Romans 13:8-14 Love, for the Day Is Near Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
New International Version 1984 Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speakand slow to become angry,20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom,and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as PURE and FAULTLESS is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
YOU JUST NEED TO ACCEPT AND NOT REJECT.
YOUR QUESTION IS NONSENSE BECAUSE GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART.
WHATEVER IS "DONE" THROUGH "FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE" IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.(galatians 5:6)
New International Version 1984 Romans 13:8-14 Love, for the Day Is Near Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
New International Version 1984 Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
dcon says;
BLAH BLAH BLAH more working for pseudo salvation.....My bible teaches salvation is a present CURRENT possession.....
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HAS HE SAVED US <--PAST TENSE
YES..JESUSe did become SIN for us....<--Only a deceiver would reject this truth as well....
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
FOLKS any and all who deny the above truths have proven they are not of GOD....DO NOT BELIEVE POST 59510..HE DENIES these truths and supplants them with HALF truths and deceit just like the garden when the serpent removed and then added his own words to the bible.......
dcontroversial said:
...”JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....”
Seohce said;
THIS IS A CLEAR DECLARATION BY DCON THAT JESUS WAS “CURSED”.
WHO CURSED JESUS AND WHY?
I DECLARE THAT OUR LORD JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PURE, HOLY AND UNDEFILED. HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH.
SINCE WHEN HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS “WAS CURSED”?
... THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” …...AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. (rom 10:9)
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday and today and forever.(heb 13:5-8)
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY and SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL JESUS “CURSED".
YOU HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THE FF;
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
BLAH BLAH BLAH more working for pseudo salvation.....My bible teaches salvation is a present CURRENT possession.....
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HAS HE SAVED US <--PAST TENSE
YES..JESUSe did become SIN for us....<--Only a deceiver would reject this truth as well....
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "
FOLKS any and all who deny the above truths have proven they are not of GOD....DO NOT BELIEVE POST 59510..HE DENIES these truths and supplants them with HALF truths and deceit just like the garden when the serpent removed and then added his own words to the bible.......
dcontroversial said:
...”JESUS was BORN of a WOMAN, BORN UNDER THE LAW and “was CURSED” when he hung on a TREE....<--Only deceivers would reject the word of God which states as much....”
Seohce said;
THIS IS A CLEAR DECLARATION BY DCON THAT JESUS WAS “CURSED”.
WHO CURSED JESUS AND WHY?
I DECLARE THAT OUR LORD JESUS IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, PURE, HOLY AND UNDEFILED. HE IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH.
SINCE WHEN HAS THE GOSPEL CHANGED? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT JESUS “WAS CURSED”?
... THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH “JESUS IS LORD” …...AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. (rom 10:9)
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.” So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?” Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is THE SAME yesterday and today and forever.(heb 13:5-8)
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY and SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.
WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL JESUS “CURSED".
YOU HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT FOR THE FF;
- FOR REJECTING THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY
- FOR HAVING SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL
- FOR CALLING JESUS “CURSED".
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
