Sabbath
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I try to keep it simple for the legalists and judaizers.
If legalists and judaizers understood the scripture we wouldn't be having these long discussions on what Rest means.
So, if I can show that what a verse is saying AND WHAT ITS NOT SAYING by using another verse somewhere else then that's easily accomplished.
So you can argue with scripture or you can attempt to re-define words. You have chosen the re-define route. Anyone with understanding or even a cursory knowledge of Christianity can see how you twist scripture to make Rest into Work.
If someone is attempting to re-define words incorrectly how can you show that except by using other scriptures that bring it to light?
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
What does that mean, rest?
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Well, that's pretty simple. We cease from our work. What work, exactly?
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Are you entering Rest or are you working at the law? They are two ENTIRELY different things and only the FOOLISH try to make them into the same thing.
Are you in unbelief or are you of the faith? The Law is NOT of faith. Coming to Christ and receiving Rest is ALL OF FAITH.
If legalists and judaizers understood the scripture we wouldn't be having these long discussions on what Rest means.
So, if I can show that what a verse is saying AND WHAT ITS NOT SAYING by using another verse somewhere else then that's easily accomplished.
So you can argue with scripture or you can attempt to re-define words. You have chosen the re-define route. Anyone with understanding or even a cursory knowledge of Christianity can see how you twist scripture to make Rest into Work.
If someone is attempting to re-define words incorrectly how can you show that except by using other scriptures that bring it to light?
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
What does that mean, rest?
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Well, that's pretty simple. We cease from our work. What work, exactly?
Galatians 3:2-3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Are you entering Rest or are you working at the law? They are two ENTIRELY different things and only the FOOLISH try to make them into the same thing.
Are you in unbelief or are you of the faith? The Law is NOT of faith. Coming to Christ and receiving Rest is ALL OF FAITH.
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Grandpa said:
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
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But Grandpa...
You're saying, "WE cease from our work of the law when WE enter into Christ's rest through faith", right?
You also call us legalist and Judaizer who say "rest is in obedience"...
...but I have a few questions that I hope you'll please consider...
Please think about these questions slowly and deliberately. I'm not patronizing you. I'm honestly asking you to consider them:
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What possible Work of the Law have YOU been working at, ("you" as in YOU, ME, US, ETC.) prior to belief in Christ, that YOU now rest from?
I'll ask it another way...
What possible Work of the Law were WE (you and I) doing when WE were yet sinners?
Let me be more specific...
If the work that WE (you and I) rest from IS the work of the law (which you've said are the 10 commandments), in the history of our lives when were ANY OF US working it AS sinners prior to Christ?
- Do SINNERS work at not having any other gods in front of Yah?
- Do SINNERS work at not making idols?
- Do SINNERS work at not taking Yah's name in vain?
- Do SINNERS work at remembering the Sabbath and keeping it Holy?
- Do SINNERS work at obeying the living God? Carnal, fleshy sinners try to obey Yah??
Are these the things you and I frequently did in our lives prior to belief in Christ that we can now rest from?
When did we do ANY these things AS SINNERS if the very definition of a sin is NOT DOING these things?
Did we EVER do them prior to Christ?
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I'm not trying to trip you up. Please...think about these questions.
I hope you see the point I'm trying to make against combining the passages you combined together.
You're saying, "WE cease from our work of the law when WE enter into Christ's rest through faith", right?
You also call us legalist and Judaizer who say "rest is in obedience"...
...but I have a few questions that I hope you'll please consider...
Please think about these questions slowly and deliberately. I'm not patronizing you. I'm honestly asking you to consider them:
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What possible Work of the Law have YOU been working at, ("you" as in YOU, ME, US, ETC.) prior to belief in Christ, that YOU now rest from?
I'll ask it another way...
What possible Work of the Law were WE (you and I) doing when WE were yet sinners?
Let me be more specific...
If the work that WE (you and I) rest from IS the work of the law (which you've said are the 10 commandments), in the history of our lives when were ANY OF US working it AS sinners prior to Christ?
- Do SINNERS work at not having any other gods in front of Yah?
- Do SINNERS work at not making idols?
- Do SINNERS work at not taking Yah's name in vain?
- Do SINNERS work at remembering the Sabbath and keeping it Holy?
- Do SINNERS work at obeying the living God? Carnal, fleshy sinners try to obey Yah??
Are these the things you and I frequently did in our lives prior to belief in Christ that we can now rest from?
When did we do ANY these things AS SINNERS if the very definition of a sin is NOT DOING these things?
Did we EVER do them prior to Christ?
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I'm not trying to trip you up. Please...think about these questions.
I hope you see the point I'm trying to make against combining the passages you combined together.
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There is some sort of disconnect with the legalist.
I think for some reason they think that working at the law is what happens when someone comes to faith in Christ.
That is ABSOLUTELY not so.
Working at the law is what happens when a person TRIES in their own understanding and strength to become Righteous before God.
No one becomes righteous that way because the law is not fulfilled by a persons understanding or strength.
Once you find out that you CANNOT fulfill the law by your own understanding and strength that is when you ask the One you have faith in for Help.
If it is the Lord Jesus Christ that you have faith in then that is when you are given rest from your work of trying to be Righteous before God by your own understanding and strength.
That is when you are given the gift of Righteousness and Salvation and Obedience and Faith.
If it is your self and your understanding that you have faith in then you will continue your work at the law and consider those who don't as sinners.
I think for some reason they think that working at the law is what happens when someone comes to faith in Christ.
That is ABSOLUTELY not so.
Working at the law is what happens when a person TRIES in their own understanding and strength to become Righteous before God.
No one becomes righteous that way because the law is not fulfilled by a persons understanding or strength.
Once you find out that you CANNOT fulfill the law by your own understanding and strength that is when you ask the One you have faith in for Help.
If it is the Lord Jesus Christ that you have faith in then that is when you are given rest from your work of trying to be Righteous before God by your own understanding and strength.
That is when you are given the gift of Righteousness and Salvation and Obedience and Faith.
If it is your self and your understanding that you have faith in then you will continue your work at the law and consider those who don't as sinners.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that Joe Schmo gentile....who has never heard of Christ EVER...is somehow trying to obey Yah's commandments RIGHT NOW; that he's working at the law RIGHT NOW trying to be righteous before Yah, and that THAT is what makes him a sinner (???).
So before ever becoming a Christian believer, you were somehow trying to obey Yah's commandments? When?
When you were of the world, before you became a Christian, you're saying you were trying to make sure you didn't have any other gods before Yah, or trying to obey the Sabbath day? BEFORE ever becoming a christian believer? Really? Somehow you were trying to follow commandments you never even knew existed until after coming into this faith? As a gentile??
Either you absolutely did not understand my questions, or I don't even... If we can't even agree on the basics, we can't even begin to discuss what rest is?
Sinners ARE NOT workers of the law. Sinners are "workers of iniquity"; of "works that bring death" i.e. sins by biblical definition.
Sinners DO NOT work at the law. Sinners are by definition lawbreakers who work against the law. This is the bible 101.
ABSOLUTELY NO GENTILE knew what Yah's Law even was PRIOR TO coming into the Christian faith, let alone trying to work at it. Not one. Not. One.
That was the point I was making; that you and I didn't even know what Yah's law was to even ATTEMPT to follow it PRIOR TO entering into this faith through belief in Christ, because we're GENTILES NOT JEWS (unless you're Jewish? But I know I'm not.)
The law was first entrusted to the Jews. Not gentiles.
The covenant at Sinai was made with Israelites. Not gentiles.
So the work that WE GENTILES rest from once WE finally ENTERED into this faith through belief in Christ can NOT be the work of attempting to obey the commandments because NO gentile would even have known there WAS such a work to do as obeying the 10 commandments until AFTER they enter this faith.
What worldly gentile - who has never heard of Christ - would EVER try to obey the 10 commandments?? Before entering the Christian faith??? How would they even know about them to try to follow them in the first place?
Gentiles don't rest from working at the law through faith in Christ because the law was never given to gentiles to work.
So you can NOT combine those two passages together and say it's for gentiles. It's nonsense. Utter nonsense.
So before ever becoming a Christian believer, you were somehow trying to obey Yah's commandments? When?
When you were of the world, before you became a Christian, you're saying you were trying to make sure you didn't have any other gods before Yah, or trying to obey the Sabbath day? BEFORE ever becoming a christian believer? Really? Somehow you were trying to follow commandments you never even knew existed until after coming into this faith? As a gentile??
Either you absolutely did not understand my questions, or I don't even... If we can't even agree on the basics, we can't even begin to discuss what rest is?
Sinners ARE NOT workers of the law. Sinners are "workers of iniquity"; of "works that bring death" i.e. sins by biblical definition.
Sinners DO NOT work at the law. Sinners are by definition lawbreakers who work against the law. This is the bible 101.
ABSOLUTELY NO GENTILE knew what Yah's Law even was PRIOR TO coming into the Christian faith, let alone trying to work at it. Not one. Not. One.
That was the point I was making; that you and I didn't even know what Yah's law was to even ATTEMPT to follow it PRIOR TO entering into this faith through belief in Christ, because we're GENTILES NOT JEWS (unless you're Jewish? But I know I'm not.)
The law was first entrusted to the Jews. Not gentiles.
The covenant at Sinai was made with Israelites. Not gentiles.
So the work that WE GENTILES rest from once WE finally ENTERED into this faith through belief in Christ can NOT be the work of attempting to obey the commandments because NO gentile would even have known there WAS such a work to do as obeying the 10 commandments until AFTER they enter this faith.
What worldly gentile - who has never heard of Christ - would EVER try to obey the 10 commandments?? Before entering the Christian faith??? How would they even know about them to try to follow them in the first place?
Gentiles don't rest from working at the law through faith in Christ because the law was never given to gentiles to work.
So you can NOT combine those two passages together and say it's for gentiles. It's nonsense. Utter nonsense.
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This is really not difficult.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Before a person comes to Christ they are kept under the law.
They THINK they must try really hard to obey the 10 commandments in their own strength and understanding.
IF ANYONE is still working hard at trying to obey the 10 commandments then they HAVE NOT come to faith in Christ.
How can they? They don't even know what it is yet. Its not just mental assent that the Lord existed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Working at the 10 commandments in your own strength and understanding is supposed to bring you to Christ, BY DESIGN.
You need help with this Law because it is spiritual. But in your EXTREME ARROGANCE you think you can fulfill this law by your own carnal understanding and carnal strength.
Its not until you are shown that you CAN'T do it that you cry out for help. And there is only One who can Help in this endeavor.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
This is part of the picture of receiving that Rest. Or Sabbath if you prefer the Hebrew word for Rest. The reason WHY CHRISTIANS say that Christ IS their Sabbath.
Galatians 3:25-26
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
If a person was sacrificing lambs in an attempt to cover their sin you could easily say they have not come to faith in Christ yet.
That person could say "I never knew I need to sacrifice lambs until I came to Christ".
That is obviously baloney to the Christian hearing this. That was part of the Old Testament law. Designed to bring people to Christ.
People who have come to Christ are not under that schoolmaster.
Then the silly legalists argument; So you can just break the 10 commandments whenever you want?
We can break YOUR understanding of them because you still consider them a carnal commandment able to be fulfilled by carnal means. Which is a wrong understanding.
The 10 commandments are spiritual and are only fulfilled spiritually. Which the Lord Jesus Christ ABSOLUTELY fulfilled.
He said He would. So if He didn't then you are still required to sacrifice animals to cover sin.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
If all is not fulfilled then NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE is fulfilled and you are under ALL of them.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Before a person comes to Christ they are kept under the law.
They THINK they must try really hard to obey the 10 commandments in their own strength and understanding.
IF ANYONE is still working hard at trying to obey the 10 commandments then they HAVE NOT come to faith in Christ.
How can they? They don't even know what it is yet. Its not just mental assent that the Lord existed.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Working at the 10 commandments in your own strength and understanding is supposed to bring you to Christ, BY DESIGN.
You need help with this Law because it is spiritual. But in your EXTREME ARROGANCE you think you can fulfill this law by your own carnal understanding and carnal strength.
Its not until you are shown that you CAN'T do it that you cry out for help. And there is only One who can Help in this endeavor.
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
This is part of the picture of receiving that Rest. Or Sabbath if you prefer the Hebrew word for Rest. The reason WHY CHRISTIANS say that Christ IS their Sabbath.
Galatians 3:25-26
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
If a person was sacrificing lambs in an attempt to cover their sin you could easily say they have not come to faith in Christ yet.
That person could say "I never knew I need to sacrifice lambs until I came to Christ".
That is obviously baloney to the Christian hearing this. That was part of the Old Testament law. Designed to bring people to Christ.
People who have come to Christ are not under that schoolmaster.
Then the silly legalists argument; So you can just break the 10 commandments whenever you want?
We can break YOUR understanding of them because you still consider them a carnal commandment able to be fulfilled by carnal means. Which is a wrong understanding.
The 10 commandments are spiritual and are only fulfilled spiritually. Which the Lord Jesus Christ ABSOLUTELY fulfilled.
He said He would. So if He didn't then you are still required to sacrifice animals to cover sin.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
If all is not fulfilled then NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE is fulfilled and you are under ALL of them.
How can a Gentile, who doesn't know God, doesn't know His Word, has never heard God speak, try to obey commandments he has never heard with their own strength?
Please, I really want to know how a Gentile who doesn't know God, or is Known of God, is trying to Keep His 10 Commandments.
Not a trick question, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to understand how a man tries to follow Laws he has never seen before?
Please, I really want to know how a Gentile who doesn't know God, or is Known of God, is trying to Keep His 10 Commandments.
Not a trick question, not trying to be argumentative, I just want to understand how a man tries to follow Laws he has never seen before?
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So, I haven't been following your Exchange here, but I did come across this last post just now.
Doesn't the first part of Romans talk about how when the Gentiles who don't have the law do by Nature the things of the law they show that the law of God is written on their hearts?
wouldn't All Humans since the time of Adam and Eve have a knowledge of Good and Evil?
Doesn't the first part of Romans talk about how when the Gentiles who don't have the law do by Nature the things of the law they show that the law of God is written on their hearts?
wouldn't All Humans since the time of Adam and Eve have a knowledge of Good and Evil?
seriously, it's not.
Galatians 3:11-12
Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." The Law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
does this not clearly indicate that righteousness before God is not a property of law-keeping?
Galatians 3:11-12
Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." The Law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
does this not clearly indicate that righteousness before God is not a property of law-keeping?
I would say some parts of God Laws can't be rejected if a society of any kind is going to survive.
Remember, God did create humans in His image. Even heathens who didn't know God at all would have some of His instruction in their heart.
It's not the instructions of God we honor with obedience that is the problem, it's the parts of God's Word we reject that is the problem.
I was replying to a man who preaches these same heathens/Gentiles were trying to earn salvation by following God's Commandments on their own strength before they even knew Him or His instructions. Which of course is foolishness.
Having knowledge of God's definition of Good and Evil is not the problem either, in my opinion. Rejecting His definition of Holy, Good, Righteous, and replacing it with OUR Vision or trusting another Voice to define these qualities, as Eve did, is the Problem.
In my opinion this is the clear difference between Cain, Sodom, the Pharisees, and Abel, Abraham and Zechariahs. One group was convinced by other voices to followed their own vision with their heart, and the other group allowed God, and only God, to define what is Holy and what is not.
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If one ignores the context of what and Who Paul was talking to and about, you might believe this way. But if you understand that there was a Priesthood given by God to the Levites, "Until the Seed should come" which provided certain "Works of the Law" including animal sacrifice and Priesthood "Duties" then you would know that Paul isn't talking about all of God's Laws like "Love God with all your Heart" or "Love your neighbor as yourself", both of which are a requirements for Salvation to this day, but about a Priesthood that the Mainstream Preachers of his time were still pushing on the Gentiles.
Since these Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time didn't believe in the Messiah and His promise to forgive their sins as promised in the Law and Prophets, they rejected the Faith in this same Messiah to make them "righteous" (Take away their sins) and continued to rely on the "Works of the Law" of the Priesthood that God changed as He promised.
This "Law" was not of Faith, but of Works. Paul called it the "Law of Works" in Romans 3.
Like the Messiah said:
Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Clearly there are parts of God's Law which ARE based on FAITH, on Mercy, and on Judgment. If I rely on the Christ and HIS Instructions, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the Mouth of God" then I will not "OMIT" parts of God's Word, and mix them with my own religious traditions like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did. And He promised me that if I had faith in Him enough to actually do as He instructs, He and His Father will abide with me.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
And I have faith that He will keep His Promise, and has already done so.
Since these Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time didn't believe in the Messiah and His promise to forgive their sins as promised in the Law and Prophets, they rejected the Faith in this same Messiah to make them "righteous" (Take away their sins) and continued to rely on the "Works of the Law" of the Priesthood that God changed as He promised.
This "Law" was not of Faith, but of Works. Paul called it the "Law of Works" in Romans 3.
Like the Messiah said:
Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Clearly there are parts of God's Law which ARE based on FAITH, on Mercy, and on Judgment. If I rely on the Christ and HIS Instructions, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the Mouth of God" then I will not "OMIT" parts of God's Word, and mix them with my own religious traditions like the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did. And He promised me that if I had faith in Him enough to actually do as He instructs, He and His Father will abide with me.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
And I have faith that He will keep His Promise, and has already done so.
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The "we" in Galatians 3:24 that Paul is referring to are THE JEWS not THE GENTILES.
I completely agree that it's part of the picture of receiving rest. But Christ continues his thought:
Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.
It's what we LEARN from Christ that provides our rest. His Yoke. The way he walked.
Only JEWS were required to sacrifice animals, because only Jews broke the covenant that they made with Yah, not GENTILES. Christ fulfilled the sacrifice required by the law for the JEWS and THEN taught them obedience to the commandments so as to "sin no more" and not crucify him afresh.
NEXT, Christ made salvation freely available to GENTILES who were never part of the covenant at Sinai, and thus never broke covenant with Yah requiring ANY sacrifice from the law ("work of the law"), but if they're now grafted in they're now taught the SAME obedience to the commandments so as to "sin no more" and crucify Christ afresh.
John 10:16
"I have other sheep not of this fold..."
Yes indeed it does say that Dan. And in fact that passage will - I think - help explain to Grandpa my point.
Grandpa's point - Faith in Christ (blood, redemptive work, et al) gives US (you, me, Joe Gentile) rest from works of the law., which he's defined it to mean "obeying the 10 commandments". He concludes that faith in Christ gives us gentiles rest from obeying the 10 commandments particularly because no one can obey them; we attempt to obey them but fail and thus sin...and any attempt to try to obey them even after receiving Christ's Spirit amounts to self-righteousness and thus more sin (and legalism). So no attempt can be made to obey the commandments of those in Christ by faith because any attempt is carnality.
[I hope I haven't mischaracterized you Grandpa. If I have please forgive me and correct me.]
My point - "Rest from work" in Hebrews 4 can not mean "rest from working at the law" because Gentiles were never given the law to work as requirement. Do we receive rest from work? Absolutely! All who come to Christ receive rest...but it's a rest from OUR OWN WORKS as the Hebrews 4 passage literally says. Our own works in our weary lives are not Yah's works of the law, tying directly to Matthew 11:28 - Rest is by LEARNING the way of Christ, bearing his yoke. This is why Hebrews also says, "DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS with sin's deceitfulness". In other words, do not let sin convince you that it can't be overcome.
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Your passage, Dan, successfully explains that when gentiles naturally DO things found in Yah's law - a law they were NEVER given as a requirement - it shows proof of THE NEW COVENANT (i.e. the law written on the heart; Jeremiah 31:33), which is also the true circumcision (i.e. loving Yah will all your heart; Deuteronomy 30:6) as Paul concludes in that same chapter, saying the uncircumcised Gentile who's obedient to the law will judge the circumcised Jew who breaks it.
Romans 2:13-15 [brackets mine]
For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law [i.e. weren't given it], do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law [i.e. weren't given it], are a law unto themselves:
since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them [you're doing right OR you're not doing right].
There it is as clear as day. To DO the things found in the law shows that the work of the law is written on the heart; it shows The New Covenant.
I completely agree that it's part of the picture of receiving rest. But Christ continues his thought:
Matthew 11:28-30
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.
It's what we LEARN from Christ that provides our rest. His Yoke. The way he walked.
Only JEWS were required to sacrifice animals, because only Jews broke the covenant that they made with Yah, not GENTILES. Christ fulfilled the sacrifice required by the law for the JEWS and THEN taught them obedience to the commandments so as to "sin no more" and not crucify him afresh.
NEXT, Christ made salvation freely available to GENTILES who were never part of the covenant at Sinai, and thus never broke covenant with Yah requiring ANY sacrifice from the law ("work of the law"), but if they're now grafted in they're now taught the SAME obedience to the commandments so as to "sin no more" and crucify Christ afresh.
John 10:16
"I have other sheep not of this fold..."
Yes indeed it does say that Dan. And in fact that passage will - I think - help explain to Grandpa my point.
Grandpa's point - Faith in Christ (blood, redemptive work, et al) gives US (you, me, Joe Gentile) rest from works of the law., which he's defined it to mean "obeying the 10 commandments". He concludes that faith in Christ gives us gentiles rest from obeying the 10 commandments particularly because no one can obey them; we attempt to obey them but fail and thus sin...and any attempt to try to obey them even after receiving Christ's Spirit amounts to self-righteousness and thus more sin (and legalism). So no attempt can be made to obey the commandments of those in Christ by faith because any attempt is carnality.
[I hope I haven't mischaracterized you Grandpa. If I have please forgive me and correct me.]
My point - "Rest from work" in Hebrews 4 can not mean "rest from working at the law" because Gentiles were never given the law to work as requirement. Do we receive rest from work? Absolutely! All who come to Christ receive rest...but it's a rest from OUR OWN WORKS as the Hebrews 4 passage literally says. Our own works in our weary lives are not Yah's works of the law, tying directly to Matthew 11:28 - Rest is by LEARNING the way of Christ, bearing his yoke. This is why Hebrews also says, "DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS with sin's deceitfulness". In other words, do not let sin convince you that it can't be overcome.
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Your passage, Dan, successfully explains that when gentiles naturally DO things found in Yah's law - a law they were NEVER given as a requirement - it shows proof of THE NEW COVENANT (i.e. the law written on the heart; Jeremiah 31:33), which is also the true circumcision (i.e. loving Yah will all your heart; Deuteronomy 30:6) as Paul concludes in that same chapter, saying the uncircumcised Gentile who's obedient to the law will judge the circumcised Jew who breaks it.
Romans 2:13-15 [brackets mine]
For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law [i.e. weren't given it], do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law [i.e. weren't given it], are a law unto themselves:
since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them [you're doing right OR you're not doing right].
There it is as clear as day. To DO the things found in the law shows that the work of the law is written on the heart; it shows The New Covenant.
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As I said, I wasn't following the exchange between yourself and other people recently.
I was thinking just this morning about how in any discussion about law keeping, the big question I think is always which laws and how intensely to keep them. And I suppose you could add weather to keep them physically or spiritually. To circumcise or not? Is it spiritual or physical? Keep the Sabbath by not working physically or spiritually? Keep a feast like Jesus did but don't go to Jerusalem as Jesus did?
I was thinking just this morning about how in any discussion about law keeping, the big question I think is always which laws and how intensely to keep them. And I suppose you could add weather to keep them physically or spiritually. To circumcise or not? Is it spiritual or physical? Keep the Sabbath by not working physically or spiritually? Keep a feast like Jesus did but don't go to Jerusalem as Jesus did?
Thanks for the reply my man, but I'll be honest here I wasn't really able to follow what you were saying. I think one problem which I talked about in the post just above this one is that different people who talk about keeping the law from the Old Testament have different sections that they keep and ways that they keep them. So when one person says works of the law they mean something different from another person. Add to that difficulties inherent in an internet forum with different people answering different people, which I do myself, and it kind of makes trying to follow a simple line of discussion kind of difficult. But, if you want to list what you feel are the laws that you want to keep that might be a starting point.
I wasn't actually thinking that you should back off, but rather if you'd like to list what you feel are all the laws that you need to keep that might be interesting, a place to start. One thing I found is that nearly every person in favor of keeping some kind of rule related to pleasing God has a different set of rules from other people. At least that's been my experience here on the forums.