Does God hide truth from the world?

posthuman · Sep 9, 2018

uh huh you're not answering my question.
"covenant theology" -- do you even know what this is?

i've gone through 15-20 sermons about it in the last few weeks to pick up background to talk to a friend about it. only to find out he says oh no no 'new covenant theology' not 'covenant theology' lol
but you talk like a 'covenant theologian' about Genesis.

do you know this term? is this what you believe? go study it if you don't know what i'm talking about. very easy to find info.

posthuman · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

because you are framing Genesis 2-3 exactly like a covenant theologian. to wit:

God made a deal (contract/covenant) with Adam by giving him a command, 'do not eat'
Adam gets immortal life if he does not eat ((after some unspecified time period of testing???))
Adam gets the curse ((death)) if he fails the test ((the 'choice'))
this is a covenant/deal/contract based on works: what Adam *does* determines reward or punishment

you are saying the Serpent told Eve the reward is a gift, not by works. this is exactly what a covenant theologian who believes there is an implicit 'Adamic covenant of works' because of the fact a law was given would say. that the Serpents lie is framing it as a covenant of grace rather than a covenant of works.

Magenta · Sep 9, 2018

posthuman said:

i.e. "God has lied"

but God has said this:

I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me will live, even though they die;

and whoever lives by believing in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

(John 11:25-26)

no lie - though some people, even calling themselves Christians, say Jesus is lying when He says these things.

Magenta · Sep 9, 2018

posthuman said:

A strong implication that A&E never ate from the Tree of Life is one little word: also. Had they already partaken of that tree, the word would perhaps have been again instead of also. However, the fact that the text says God protected the Tree from them so they could not ALSO eat from it, does suggest they had not yet, and God was making sure they would not.

What the text does not say:

A&E ate from the Tree of Life. Nope, not stated at all or even hinted at.

What the text does say:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

I'm not of the idea that a snake talked and convinced Eve. I also don't believe this same snake tempted Jesus in the wilderness- it is just a figurative speech that shows how a man's heart fails, truth is planted in it but being deep waters, truth gets lost in it and the condition that is left is what we call sin.

Studyman · Sep 9, 2018

Noose said:

I too do not believe there was a physical snake that talked with Eve. But a "voice" that is in every human mind.

Jer. 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

But this "Other Voice" is most certainly there. And it does work to convince us of things which are not true.

The Word of God gives example of those who embrace this "other" voice, and those who embrace the "Word's of God".

I believe it is very simple. A person either "Believes" in the God of the Bible, or they don't. Eve didn't, Abraham did. Cain didn't, Abel did. The Children of Israel didn't Caleb and Joshua did.

The Pharisees didn't, Zechariahs, Anna, Simeon, and the Wise men did.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Magenta said:

This wasn't an actual tree and there is no way the garden was a real garden. I always ask myself this questions, if everything was real as is explained in Genesis 2:

Q1. What happened to those trees (tree of life and that of knowledge)? are they still there, where?
Q2. What came to be of the garden afterwards? does the Cherubim still guard East of the garden? why East?

garee · Sep 9, 2018

Magenta said:

Yes it is the same" I AM". Not I was or could be but the I AM as the living incorruptible word by which all men that are given faith are born from above by. That which is seen the temporal profits for nothing.

God is not a man as us, never was never could be .God who is supernatural (no nature) has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

I would offer my understanding in a hope that it could represent solving the parable "What and if you" as that which Christ spoke to those who were offended in John 6 verse 61. Informing them what if he disappeared to where he first came from the father not seen?. In other words; there is nothing to see with ones eyes …. then what would be their reason for refusing to believe the words.

These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

I do also tend to think so but i also believe that the garden is actually the heart of man which after the fall, was guarded by a Cherubim with a flaming sword so that no man could access the truth. So the OT saints obeyed a ceremonial law which they performed outwardly but was of no significance, it was just a shadow of what was to be done within the hearts of men. And even that, they failed foreshadowing how we will also fail. In this new covenant, we actually have access to the truth in Jesus.

Studyman · Sep 9, 2018

posthuman said:

I have learned, through the scriptures, that listening to "another voice" is just asking for trouble. You have free will to look elsewhere for instruction if you like. But I get the warning and will not be looking outside God's Word's for instruction in Righteousness. I find His instructions perfect, and delightful, and able to make me wise unto salvation. It seems foolish for me to look elsewhere, especially given these clear and perfect examples of how the deceiver will trick religious man.

The scriptures are very clear to me.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The serpent convinced her she was already saved, already immortal. But this is not true. She was alive, she was given Life by the Life giver, but her life could also be taken away by the same God. The deceiver convinced her this wouldn't happen, but Paul understood the truth.

Rom. 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off

Most religious men don't really believe this as they have been convinced, as was Eve, "they shall surely not die".

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject the commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The serpent then convinced her that God's instructions were not for her, but against her. That she was "burdened" by God's instruction, and that God's instructions were created to keep her "Blind". But if Eve would just listen to this subtle, cleaver "Other Voice", and reject God's instructions "THEN" she would be free, then she could truly SEE.

I find this example that the Christ had written for my admonition both fascinating and terrifying given the doctrines and traditions of Mainstream religions of the land.

Studyman · Sep 9, 2018

Noose said:

I don't know about this. I believe Noah, Abel and certainly Abraham knew the truth about the Messiah.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Zechariahs knew the Messiah when He came, as did Anna, Simeon, the wise men. And others as well.

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I believe all of God's faithful servants knew of the Messiah because of God's Promise.

I believe God is faithful to fulfill His Promises.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments

And I believe the Son honored His father's Promises.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

This was true with Abraham.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

With Zechariahs.

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I believe the scriptures give a clear example of the Faith God requires.

Eve was given instruction and chose to reject them. Abraham was given instruction and chose to obey them. I seems pretty simple to me.

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

I don't know about this. I believe Noah, Abel and certainly Abraham knew the truth about the Messiah.

Gen. 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Zechariahs knew the Messiah when He came, as did Anna, Simeon, the wise men. And others as well.

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I believe all of God's faithful servants knew of the Messiah because of God's Promise.

I believe God is faithful to fulfill His Promises.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments

And I believe the Son honored His father's Promises.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

This was true with Abraham.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

With Zechariahs.

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I believe the scriptures give a clear example of the Faith God requires.

Eve was given instruction and chose to reject them. Abraham was given instruction and chose to obey them. I seems pretty simple to me.

2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed.

Studyman · Sep 9, 2018

Yes, the Pharisees didn't follow the same Path as Abel, Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Isaiah, Zechariahs, Simeon, the Wise men, Anna.

The scriptures say these all knew the Messiah when He came, but the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did not.

I think it was because of the Promises of God.

Luke 1:
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

These 2 knew the Messiah when He came, YES?

Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as did Abraham and Zechariahs)

But these didn't know the Messiah when He came.

Is the difference between these two examples any different than the example of Eve and Abraham?

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

True but they did not get to hear the words of Jesus and see His works for the words and the works of Jesus are the bread of life. Jesus is what is figuratively know as the tree of life in the garden of Eden. The OT saints heard God's word but that was only a promise of the real food which would be the new covenant. As much as they believed in God, they died and remained dead until Jesus came and set them free from sheol- meaning that they still did not get the truth in them. If anyone has truth in them then death can not overcome them. They received the truth and were victorious over death through Jesus.

garee · Sep 9, 2018

Noose said:

It would seem Adam and Eve were born into a corrupted creation shown as corrupted for them when they sinned and saw their nakedness .The temporal glow as the glory of Moses face being in the presence of God showed God left their presence.

Perhaps of the third day when the angels as ministering spirits having no form were most likely created and God emedaiatly saw pride in the lead angel ."From the moment or day the father of lies taking on the form of a serpent was created"

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Day four he set up the two temporal time keepers. (Sun and Moon)The glory as the presence of the lord had departed as the same glory that will return when the Sun and the Moon are no longer needed as time keepers(Revelation 21)

The trees of their own selves had no redeeming value . We do not know God who is not a rudiment of this world by the corrupted rudiments as things made. The tree could of bore the same literal fruit. The literal fruit is not the focus of that parable breaking the commandment is. Whatever it was (I think almonds) it turn out to be the sign to those who rebel and refuse to hear the word of God

We should look for the gospel lesson I believe hidden in the parables

The garden itself was set aside as a representative glory of God. like the phase bosom of Abraham the invisible presence of God.
The four rivers leading out in four directions (universal) represented the gospel going out into the world. It would seem all four lead to the land of gold used to represent a born again believer. Bdellium the color of peal to represent the hidden manna or the peal of great price. Where onyx stone is the stone the twelve tribes were written of to represent His bride the church .
The direction East represents Christ. The flaming sword as the letter of the law that kills still keeps people out of the kingdom of God that does no come by observation.

And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.Geneisis 2:11-15

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

garee said:

It would seem Adam and Eve were born into a corrupted creation shown as corrupted for them when they sinned and saw their nakedness .The temporal glow as the glory of Moses face being in the presence of God showed God left their presence.

Perhaps of the third day when the angels as ministering spirits having no form were most likely created and God emedaiatly saw pride in the lead angel ."From the moment or day the father of lies taking on the form of a serpent was created"

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Day four he set up the two temporal time keepers. (Sun and Moon)The glory as the presence of the lord had departed as the same glory that will return when the Sun and the Moon are no longer needed as time keepers(Revelation 21)

The trees of their own selves had no redeeming value . We do not know God who is not a rudiment of this world by the corrupted rudiments as things made. The tree could of bore the same literal fruit. The literal fruit is not the focus of that parable breaking the commandment is. Whatever it was (I think almonds) it turn out to be the sign to those who rebel and refuse to hear the word of God

We should look for the gospel lesson I believe hidden in the parables

The garden itself was set aside as a representative glory of God. like the phase bosom of Abraham the invisible presence of God.
The four rivers leading out in four directions (universal) represented the gospel going out into the world. It would seem all four lead to the land of gold used to represent a born again believer. Bdellium the color of peal to represent the hidden manna or the peal of great price. Where onyx stone is the stone the twelve tribes were written of to represent His bride the church .
The direction East represents Christ. The flaming sword as the letter of the law that kills still keeps people out of the kingdom of God that does no come by observation.

And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.Geneisis 2:11-15

This very conditions are restored in Revelation 22 but in Revelation we know what all these things are; they represent the pure heart of men (believers), including the tree of life.

Ezekiel 36:16-38 is also a good representation of what Eden is.

Studyman · Sep 9, 2018

Noose said:

Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Noose · Sep 9, 2018

Studyman said:

Heb. 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

100% agree

DiscipleDave · Sep 9, 2018

garee said:

These same people go about to interpret the Word of God as well, to fit into what they believe is the TRUTH. This Generation does not understand that interpretations belong to God, and not to men. As if man had the authority to interpret the Word of God. God will reveal to whom God will reveal. But woe to that person who goes about to interpret the Word of God based on their own interpretations. We have over 100 different denomination based solely on the interpretations of men. Scriptures teach us over and over again, to have ONE MINE, to think the same thing. But because of men and their own interpretations of the Word of God we have MANY minds, and do NOT think the same thing. The Body of Christ is so divided by false doctrines than people have come up with due to their own private interpretations of what they think Scriptures means.

Interpretations belong to God, NOT to men. God will reveal to whom God will reveal. But woe to the people in this generation who take it upon themselves to interpret the Word of God based on their own intellect, their own studies, their own thoughts, their own opinions. As if people could actually interpret the Word of God. Who can understand the mind of God? Our ways are not His ways. Woe to any person on this planet that thinks they can interpret the Word of God. God will reveal to whom God will reveal.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

dcontroversal · Sep 9, 2018

Sure he does...........and at the end of the age he will send stong delusion for those who would not receive the love if the truth that they might be judged...SEEK YE THE LORD WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND....there comes a time and place in one's life that the door is shut....the probervial day late and a dolla short!

Does God hide truth from the world?

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