Sabbath

[lightbearer]

More SDA propaganda. Notice that the Greek word "sabbatismos" is used no where else in the Bible! Amazing that Sabbatarians would suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else, in spite of the many references to Jews keeping the weekly Sabbath in the New Testament!

There are many words used only once. And for the record I never heard a SDA Evangelist preach on these text. Nor have I read anything from them that says what the post you responded to states.

W. E. Vine, Greek Dictionary on "Rest" proves the Sabbatarian argument wrong:

A2. KATAPAUSIS (2663), in classical Greek, denotes a causing to cease or putting to rest; in the N.T., rest, repose; it is used (a) of God's rest, Acts 7:49; Heb. 3:11, 18; 4:1, 3 (twice), R.V. (1st part), "that rest" (the A.V., "rest," is ambiguous), 5, 11; (b) in a general statement, applicable to God and man, 4:10.

A4. SABBATISMOS (4520), a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into Divine rest, that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God.

Your perverted Sabbath gospel is not the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

Vines' perverts his Lexicon with baseless commentary. At least he did not have the audacity to claim that it was a future rest like most do.
There is nothing in the context to suggest that we enter into it partially either. It says in verse ten that we cease from our own work just like GOD did from HIS. NOT PARTIALLY JUST LIKE.

Also if I may verse four is rather specific with it's use of definite articles in the Greek.
Here take a look at a more direct translation.

Heb 4:4 ....And rested the GOD in the day; the seventh from all the works of HIM.

It is IN THE day; the seventh in which HE spoke. And in that day; the seventh HE rested from all HIS works.

Couple that with the fact Heb 4:5 says And in this again (HE SPEAKS), If they shall enter into my rest. We have repeating of the forth commandment to which you say does not exist.


You like Vines? DO you agree with all his commentary? You might want to look into that. The JW's love him.

Here are but a few Lexicons without commentary.


Abbott- Smith A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

G4520
*† σαββατισμός, -οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exo_16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb_4:9.†


Dodson Greek-English Lexicon

G4520

σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Noun, Masculine
a Sabbath rest



Mounces Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament
G4520
σαββατισμός sabbatismos 1x
pr. a keeping of a sabbath; a state of rest, a sabbath-state, Heb_4:9

Moulton and Milligan- Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament
G4520
σαββατισμός [page 567]
“a resting as on the Sabbath,” found only in Heb_4:9, where it may have been coined by the author : see Moffatt in ICC ad l., who also refers to its possible occurrence in Plutarch de superstit. 166 A (βαπτισμούς, Bentley). The verb occurs in Exo_16:30 : cf. Fränkel Vorstudien, p. 8.

 

[mailmandan]

Obsolete is the right word. The old Priesthood with it's animal sacrifice and corrupt preachers was growing old.

The old covenant was not merely limited to the old priesthood with it's animal sacrifices. It included the entire Law of Moses.

The Messiah promised a "new" and better way to "give us God's Laws" and to "forgive the sins of men" in Jer. 31. The Levite Priests had corrupted God's Laws and they were preaching visions of their own mind, as it is written.

Today misguided teachers of the Law corrupt God's Word and pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 3:6 - "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns" 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the law of the letter.

No more Levite Priests to filter and corrupt God's Words.

Yet we still have misguided teachers of the law today who corrupt God's Word.

34

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

N

o more Levite Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

Yet we still have misguided teachers of the law today who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." Difference in style, but same in substance -- "works based" false gospel.

A changing of the Priesthood.

Heb. 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them,(Carnal Levite Priests who corrupted God's Laws) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Today we have carnal, misguided teachers of the law who corrupt God's Word. No more OT priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Many preach that the Messiah removed the Law and Prophets in the New Covenant. But the scriptures say what was "changed" was the Priesthood. How God's Laws are administered and how sins are forgiven. The definition of sin remains the same.

Since the old covenant has been "made obsolete," does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He has loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

 

[mailmandan]

There are many words used only once. And for the record I never heard a SDA Evangelist preach on these text. Nor have I read anything from them that says what the post you responded to states.Vines' perverts his Lexicon with baseless commentary. At least he did not have the audacity to claim that it was a future rest like most do.
There is nothing in the context to suggest that we enter into it partially either. It says in verse ten that we cease from our own work just like GOD did from HIS. NOT PARTIALLY JUST LIKE.

Also if I may verse four is rather specific with it's use of definite articles in the Greek.
Here take a look at a more direct translation.

Heb 4:4 ....And rested the GOD in the day; the seventh from all the works of HIM.

It is IN THE day; the seventh in which HE spoke. And in that day; the seventh HE rested from all HIS works.

Couple that with the fact Heb 4:5 says And in this again (HE SPEAKS), If they shall enter into my rest. We have repeating of the forth commandment to which you say does not exist.

You like Vines? DO you agree with all his commentary? You might want to look into that. The JW's love him.

Here are but a few Lexicons without commentary.

Abbott- Smith A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

G4520
*† σαββατισμός, -οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exo_16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb_4:9.†

Dodson Greek-English Lexicon

G4520

σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Noun, Masculine
a Sabbath rest

Mounces Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament
G4520
σαββατισμός sabbatismos 1x
pr. a keeping of a sabbath; a state of rest, a sabbath-state, Heb_4:9

Moulton and Milligan- Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament
G4520
σαββατισμός [page 567]
“a resting as on the Sabbath,” found only in Heb_4:9, where it may have been coined by the author : see Moffatt in ICC ad l., who also refers to its possible occurrence in Plutarch de superstit. 166 A (βαπτισμούς, Bentley). The verb occurs in Exo_16:30 : cf. Fränkel Vorstudien, p. 8.

In Hebrews 4:9, the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Period.

I'm really not interested in your biased opinion or your SDA propaganda.

 

[lightbearer]

In Hebrews 4:9, the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Period.

I'm really not interested in your biased opinion or your SDA propaganda.

In other words you can't refute the facts, but due to your attitude and biasness you refuse the truth and resort to more accusations and innuendos..
Sad....

 

[lightbearer]

In Hebrews 4:9, the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Period.

I'm really not interested in your biased opinion or your SDA propaganda.

Nothing in the context to suggest a perpetual rest in regards to the Sabbatismous (Sabbath keeping) that remains either. The text says He that enters in to his rest (the Gospel) ceases from their own works as (JUST LIKE) GOD did from HIS.

The rest we enter into is perpetual in Christ. It is the Gospel. Because we enter into the Gospel rest through Christ we also cease from our own work as (just like) GOD did from HIS. GOD did not enter into some Spiritual Rest HE is our Spiritual rest though Christ. GOD IN THE DAY; THE SEVENTH RESTED from all HIS WORKS WHICH HE DID.

That was not perpetual either. That was IN THE DAY; THE SEVENTH that HE rested.

 

[mailmandan]

In other words you can't refute the facts, but due to your attitude and biasness you refuse the truth and resort to more accusations and innuendos..
Sad....

Your biased argument (not facts) have already been refuted, but you are unable to see anything beyond your SDA indoctrination. Sad....

 

[mailmandan]

Nothing in the context to suggest a perpetual rest in regards to the Sabbatismous (Sabbath keeping) that remains either. The text says He that enters in to his rest (the Gospel) ceases from their own works as (JUST LIKE) GOD did from HIS.

The rest we enter into is perpetual in Christ. It is the Gospel. Because we enter into the Gospel rest through Christ we also cease from our own work as (just like) GOD did from HIS. GOD did not enter into some Spiritual Rest HE is our Spiritual rest though Christ. GOD IN THE DAY; THE SEVENTH RESTED from all HIS WORKS WHICH HE DID.

That was not perpetual either. That was IN THE DAY; THE SEVENTH that HE rested.

The Greek word "sabbatismos" is used no where else in the Bible, yet you suggest that this is the word for "keeping the weekly Sabbath" when it is never used anywhere else, in spite of the many references to Jews keeping the weekly Sabbath in the New Testament. The Gospel is not keep the weekly Sabbath day under the law in order to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; Colossians 2:16-17). Again, the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God in Hebrews 4:9 is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

 

[Studyman]

this is very interesting, because physical circumcision is in fact a commandment both of the Law and directly to Abraham as a sign of God's covenant with him. but the implication is that in some sense physical circumcision is not, or is at least no longer a commandment of God. so we have that the keeping of what was given as a physical sign of a covenant, and what was commanded in the Law, somehow spoken of as *not* equivalent to ((and not a necessary part of)) keeping of the commandments of God.
there exists then, at least one sign of a covenant and at least one commandment in the Law that is *not* considered by a man in Christ to be part of 'keeping the commandments of God' -- and it's something that has absolutely nothing to do with priesthood or rites for atonement for sin.

These are good questions I have pondered myself. But Paul is difficult to understand, at least according to the word's of the Bible. I have reconciled these things to God by considering the following. Bear with me on this.

1 Cor. 7:
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

The apostles called the Jews religion "The Circumcision" and they called the Gentiles "the uncircumcision" many times, I can provide the scriptures, but I'm sure you know them. In these verses Paul doesn't seem to be addressing the physical act of circumcision, rather, the difference between Jews and non-Jews. How would a circumcised man become "uncircumcised". But a Jew who is called, could forsake being a Jew, and a Gentile that is called could forsake being a gentile. Because Neither Jew means anything, nor Gentile means anything, but keeping the Commandments of God.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

This is how I see this scripture given the run up to the sentence.


Rom. 2:
25 For circumcision (Jew) verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (Gentile, or uncircumcised of the heart)
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision (Gentile) be counted for circumcision? (Jew)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Again, I think Paul is speaking to the "Religion" here and not the physical act. If a Jew, "The circumcision", rejects God's Commandments, then doesn't His actions make him a Gentile?

And if a Gentile turns to God in humility and obedience, will he not be considered by God, as an Israelite?

Why is this important?

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews

I think Paul said the same thing in another place, in another way.

Rom. 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

The Jews (circumcision) had corrupted God's Laws, but were still demanding that men follow their religion. This religion consisted of " their version" of the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins, A Sabbath in which it was unlawful to help a brother in need, or take a walk and eat a strawberry, A religion which "omitted" Mercy, God's Judgment and Faith and a forced Circumcision required before entering the Sanctuary. And they were called "the Circumcision".

Personally I am already circumcised. If someone uncircumcised in the flesh came to me and asked if they should get circumcised. I would tell them to study in prayer and do as the Messiah says. For He is able to direct this person if this person lets Him.

But to say, as did the Pharisees, that a person earns salvation by cutting flesh off private parts, this is not Biblical.

 

[lightbearer]

The Gospel is not keep the weekly Sabbath day under the law in order to be saved .

No one; at least not anything ever posted in the posts that I post said that.

. Again, the Sabbath rest that remains for the people of God in Hebrews 4:9 is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

The post in which you responded and the ones posted by me on the last couple pages emphatically refute your claim. And by the way your claim does not disprove any of the objective points which are posted. It is just subjectively through in there as a claim based solely on your opinion.

Have a nice day!

 

[Studyman]

="mailmandan, post: 3700675, member: 193497"]Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [a]tutor.26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Yes, the Old Priesthood with it's ceremonial, sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins were to lead those Jews to the Christ. These "works and Deeds of the Law" foreshadowed the sacrifice our God would make for us. And it did for Zechariahs and Anna and Simeon and the wise men. But not the Pharisees who were "Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" not God.

The idea that "Thou shall not kill" leads us to the Christ, then we no longer need to follow it is foolish Dan. Were these Jews not required to "Love their Neighbor" after this Law led them to Christ?

But sacrificing animals and performing Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" after the SEED has come, that's what Paul is speaking to here.

Whenever sabbatarians see the expression "statutes, ordinances and decrees", they automatically exclude the 10 commandments and apply it only to what they call, "the ceremonial law" yet here are many passages in which these common expressions refer to the 10 commandments:

In Leviticus 19:1-37, the 10 commandments and the ceremonial law are mixed together without distinction and called "My statures and all My ordinances"

In Leviticus 23, the weekly sabbath is lumped in with all the yearly sabbaths without distinction and they are all called "The Lord's appointed times" and "holy convocations".

In Deuteronomy 5:1, the 10 commandments are called "My statures and all My ordinances"

In Deuteronomy 5:1-6:25, we see two whole chapters that deal exclusively with the 10 commandments and the following 5 terms are used interchangeably without distinction: "statutes", "ordinances", "commandments", "judgments", "testimonies".

In Ezekiel 20:19-21, my sabbaths (including the weekly sabbath) are called "My statures and all My ordinances."

Ezekiel 20 calls the first and fourth commandment, "My statutes and My ordinances."

Nehemiah 8 uses interchangeably without distinction, the following terms: "the book of the law of Moses", "the law", "the book of the law", "the law of God", "book of the law of God."

In Nehemiah 9:13-14, the weekly sabbath is included without distinction: "right judgments, true laws, good statutes, commandments."

Malachi 4:4 - closes with a call to keep "statutes and ordinances" which obviously include the 10 commandments.

True, God's Commandments for men are "one law".

But in each case here, you ignore the Priesthood given specifi8cally to the Levites. This Priesthood was to perform certain "Works of the Law" for the cleansing of sins. This Law was separate from all the other "commandments, statutes and ordinances of God that you correctly identified.

God separated them from the duties of the people, to the point that any other person who wasn't an appointed Levite Priest could not perform them on penalty of death.

It was these Priesthood "Deeds of the Law" that the Jews were still pushing onto the Galatians and Gentiles.

This is the Priesthood that was to lead to the extraordinary sacrifice the Perfect Man would make for mankind. This was the Law added 430 years after Abraham.

Abraham had God's Laws as you pointed out. And your are right, these Laws are inseparable.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

But Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood. Levi wasn't even born yet, this law was added 430 years later, to God's laws, statutes, and commandments He gave to mankind, including Abraham.

I believe we are still to Love God, and Love our neighbors, and all the instruction from God in the Law and Prophets on how to do such things, EVEN after FAITH HAS COME.

But the "works of the Law" of an old, obsolete Priesthood the Messiah promised to replace with Himself, those "works of the Law" are no longer to be performed, now that the Seed has come. This is Paul's message to the Galatians.

 

[Studyman]

="mailmandan, post: 3700686, member: 193497"]The old covenant was not merely limited to the old priesthood with it's animal sacrifices. It included the entire Law of Moses.

This is a popular doctrine in the religions of the land. But if a person ignores all the other voices out there, and just listens to the Master, you will find this teaching is a deception.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;

I believe it is important to only listen to Him where HIS New Covenant is concerned, since He is the one who created it.

After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

There is absolutely no mention of the New Covenant abolishing to Law and prophets. I understand the serpent would want to make the Law and Prophets "obsolete". But the Messiah said;

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

Of course He wouldn't want to destroy it. He wants to PRESERVE IT by writing it directly on the hearts of His People.

It is the Priesthood He found FAULT with Dan, not His Own Instructions.

Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, (Levite Priests which corrupted His Word, not His good, just and Holy instructions) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How does this statement erase the whole "Law of Moses"? It doesn't Dan. The new Covenant dealt with a corrupt Priesthood. Their job was to "administer God's laws to the people, and to perform sacrificial "deeds of the Law" for the cleansing of sins.

You are adding your own religious traditions to what the Word which became Flesh said here. I say this, not to insult or ridicule, rather, to help a brother.

 

[mailmandan]

No one; at least not anything ever posted in the posts that I post said that.

Whether you or any other extreme Sabbatarian comes out and openly admits it or not, that is the implication of your arguments.

The post in which you responded and the ones posted by me on the last couple pages emphatically refute your claim.

Only in your delusional world of SDA indoctrination.

And by the way your claim does not disprove any of the objective points which are posted. It is just subjectively through in there as a claim based solely on your opinion.

Have a nice day!

That statement is the epitome of irony. You have a nice day as well!

Here is a link below to a website that may assist in helping you learn the truth.

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Articles/clearwordbible/tabid/450/Default.aspx

 

[Zmouth]

Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

What does that have anything to do with the question I was asking posthuman regarding the "his thoughts' referred unto in his quote? Are you familiar with Proverbs 9:17-18

But to comment on your post, so when faith is come? Faith comes by hearing , for by faith we understand that the world was framed by the Son of God, so hearing comes by whom? [See John 14:17]. So if faith is the substance of the thing we hoped for, hope that is seen is not hope for what a man sees then why he does yet hope?

 

[posthuman]

What does that have anything to do with the question I was asking posthuman regarding the "his thoughts' referred unto in his quote? Are you familiar with Proverbs 9:17-18

But to comment on your post, so when faith is come? Faith comes by hearing , for by faith we understand that the world was framed by the Son of God, so hearing comes by whom? [See John 14:17]. So if faith is the substance of the thing we hoped for, hope that is seen is not hope for what a man sees then why he does yet hope?

what Grandpa quoted says that the Law that was given could not impart life.
but the Law says, whoever does these things will have life ((Leviticus 18:5, Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:12, even Luke 10:28)).

is the Bible broken? no. is God evil? did He give a stone when His children asked for a fish? no.
so how is this reconciled? do you know? it's something profoundly amazing, that on the surface looks like a logical fallacy.

not meaning to 'steal anyone's water' ((lol?)) here is one easier to grasp, since it is taught everywhere:
the seed of the Woman ((Genesis 3:15)). we all know that it isn't the woman who has seed, but the man. so what is this? does God not know human physiology very well? did Moses make this up and slip on some details? of course not, absurd. what in the world does 'seed of the woman' mean, then? we know, because it has been revealed in the One who came from heaven, that this is speaking about Him, about being born of a virgin - not of the seed of man - God manifest in flesh, taking on the form of humanity. how long was it, after Genesis 3, before Isaiah 7, when it was spelled out that God would send a Son born of a virgin, to be called Immanuel, to save His people from their sin?
this is a profound mystery, that may not seem so profound because the reality of it is so well known now. without Matthew, Mark and Luke, without Isaiah, what would you have thought of it? oh, makes perfect sense? or, oh, wait, that doesn't make sense? seeing Christ in this, it all coalesces into perfect wisdom.

 

[Zmouth]

​

​

Since the lack of response to the intital question is an answer to the question itself, than you for your response.

what Grandpa quoted says

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

 

[posthuman]

Since the lack of response to the intital question is an answer to the question itself, than you for your response.

i responded to you.
see post #774.

 

[Grandpa]

​

Since the lack of response to the intital question is an answer to the question itself, than you for your response.






Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

I thought Posthumans response was perfect.

And since you were asking for his thoughts I thought maybe you didn't want any more of mine.

I could continue to answer your questions if you have any.

 

[Grandpa]

Whether you or any other extreme Sabbatarian comes out and openly admits it or not, that is the implication of your arguments.

Only in your delusional world of SDA indoctrination.

That statement is the epitome of irony. You have a nice day as well!

Here is a link below to a website that may assist in helping you learn the truth.

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Articles/clearwordbible/tabid/450/Default.aspx

Bringing up the point of subjectivity is really interesting.

If a person doesn't want to know the truth but wants to continue in what their religion teaches they are free to do so. That is subjective. How can a person objectively say that Hebrews 4 Rest means working at the law??? That's what they are saying when they state that Rest means 'keeping a sabbath', 'physically resting on saturdays'. Its the legalists circular reasoning. Rest means working at the law...

After all, its just their subjective opinion vs. your 'subjective' opinion. So they think.

The Lord has said 'As your faith is so be it unto you'.

Those who have turned rest into working at the law have shown their lack of faith. As their faith is so be it unto them.

Kind of sad but you can't make someone have faith by an act of your own (subjective) will.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Posthuman this is a good passage that shows why I believe what I believe, I know you read the word, really consider what it says:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Abraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

check this out:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth.

He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations,

The covenant He made with Abraham,

And His oath to Yitsḥaq,

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law,

To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Now consider PS 89 and these:

Psalm 111:5-9, “He has given food to those who fear Him; He remembers His covenant forever. He has shown His people the power of His works, To give to them the inheritance of the nations. The works of His hands are truth and right-ruling, All His orders are trustworthy, They are upheld forever and ever, Performed in truth and straightness. He sent redemption to His people, He has commanded His covenant forever. Set-apart and awesome is His Name.”

Jeremiah 31:31-34, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah, (Heb 8:8-12, Heb 10:16-17) not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthened their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Strength, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

“not like the covenant I made with their fathers”

Hebrews 7:11-17, “Truly, then, if perfection were through the Lĕwitical priesthood – for under it the people were given the Torah – why was there still need for another priest to arise according to the order of Malkitseḏeq, and not be called according to the order of Aharon? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. Footnote: bFrom Malkitseḏeq to Aharon. For He of whom this is said belongs to another tribe, from which no one had attended at the slaughter-place.c Footnote: cSee “Altar” in the Explanatory Notes. For it is perfectly clear that our Master arose from Yehuḏah, a tribe about which Mosheh never spoke of concerning priesthood, and this is clearer still, if another priest arises in the likeness of Malkitseḏeq, who has become, not according to the torah of fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life, for He does witness, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Posthuman this is a good passage that shows why I believe what I believe, I know you read the word, really consider what it says:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations, The covenant He made with Abraham, And His oath to Yitsḥaq, And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

check this out:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Aḇraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth.

He has remembered His covenant forever, The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations,

The covenant He made with Abraham,

And His oath to Yitsḥaq,

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law,

To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

Now consider PS 89 and these:

Psalm 111:5-9, “He has given food to those who fear Him; He remembers His covenant forever. He has shown His people the power of His works, To give to them the inheritance of the nations. The works of His hands are truth and right-ruling, All His orders are trustworthy, They are upheld forever and ever, Performed in truth and straightness. He sent redemption to His people, He has commanded His covenant forever. Set-apart and awesome is His Name.”

Jeremiah 31:31-34, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah, (Heb 8:8-12, Heb 10:16-17) not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthened their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Strength, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbor, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

“not like the covenant I made with their fathers”

Hebrews 7:11-17, “Truly, then, if perfection were through the Lĕwitical priesthood – for under it the people were given the Torah – why was there still need for another priest to arise according to the order of Malkitseḏeq, and not be called according to the order of Aharon? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. Footnote: bFrom Malkitseḏeq to Aharon. For He of whom this is said belongs to another tribe, from which no one had attended at the slaughter-place.c Footnote: cSee “Altar” in the Explanatory Notes. For it is perfectly clear that our Master arose from Yehuḏah, a tribe about which Mosheh never spoke of concerning priesthood, and this is clearer still, if another priest arises in the likeness of Malkitseḏeq, who has become, not according to the torah of fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life, for He does witness, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Don't forget what was written for us in Deuteronomy...
"When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lordyour God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today.9 Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lordyour God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed.You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Do you understand what Paul is saying here?


Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31 NIV


Establish here is rendered uphold, in the NIV, as in a scale of weights that measure.


The law of faith and the law of Moses have the same "weight" of measure.


The factor that is common in both the law of faith and the law of Moses is obedience.


The law of Moses and the law of faith uphold each other in the scales of righteousness, through obedience.


3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4


Those who walk in obedience to the Spirit, who leads us in the way of righteousness, do fulfill the righteous requirement [singular] of the law.


Faith operates or functions by the principle obedience.


Faith without the action of obedience is both incomplete as well as dead; dormant, inactive.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect [complete]? James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works​

The "work" that Abraham did was to obey the Voice of God to offer his son Isaac on the altar.


That is how justification by faith operates, or functions: By obedience.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26




JPT