Why so much confusion about salvation?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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The new testament began with Christ, so the thief was under the new testament. I'm always weary of people who add their personal private views to the Bible. We are taught in my church that the Bible interprets itself, and nobody should ever add or remove anything from it, as it is a unforgivable sin to do so.
R
But you should also know from your Reformed Theology that genuine faith obeys God's commands. The person who does not work ultimately does not have saving faith in Christ. That is why you will not be saved by faith that is alone (James 2:14). Works accompany salvation (Hebrews 6:9). The person who thinks they're going to stand before Christ at his coming with faith that is alone (absent of works of obedience) and they will be saved is deceived. Saving faith changes a person.
Ultimately, the person who does not have a changed/changing life according to the fruit of the Spirit is showing that they really don't have saving faith in Christ. For those of you struggling with various besetting sins, remember that three steps forward and two steps back is still progress forward. So don't be discouraged. You need to examine your status with God if you are flat out the same person you were before you said you were saved. That is the person who needs to be concerned with this matter.
Ultimately, the person who does not have a changed/changing life according to the fruit of the Spirit is showing that they really don't have saving faith in Christ. For those of you struggling with various besetting sins, remember that three steps forward and two steps back is still progress forward. So don't be discouraged. You need to examine your status with God if you are flat out the same person you were before you said you were saved. That is the person who needs to be concerned with this matter.
S...,
Not true.
We see a personal view here from you that is incorrect and not biblical.Your church teachings is for .....nyet.
Suggest you find a church that applies G-d's word correctly. In the mean time YOU are charged by scripture to be correct...and you are not. You cannot blame it on pastor Jones or a church.
Christ had not yet paid the price of sacrifice on the cross for the new covenant. I see you have no understanding of that either....sad. Again, you need to study and understand G-d's word before commenting.
Christs' giving His life on the cross and resurrection established the new covenant. That had not happened yet when the interchange with the thief occurred.
Not true.
We see a personal view here from you that is incorrect and not biblical.Your church teachings is for .....nyet.
Suggest you find a church that applies G-d's word correctly. In the mean time YOU are charged by scripture to be correct...and you are not. You cannot blame it on pastor Jones or a church.
Christ had not yet paid the price of sacrifice on the cross for the new covenant. I see you have no understanding of that either....sad. Again, you need to study and understand G-d's word before commenting.
Christs' giving His life on the cross and resurrection established the new covenant. That had not happened yet when the interchange with the thief occurred.
Everyone has a different experience after they are converted, some struggle with besetting sins for years as in my case. I was back sliding into my old life for years, I was going back and forth for years. Sin had a very strong hold on me, especially fornication. It was the hardest to abstain from.
I know others who had a radical conversion and they committed themselves to living the Christian life straight away and they remain faithful to this day. So we all have different experiences, the main thing is we are saved and no amount of sinning and back sliding can cause us to lose our salvation.
We believe that when a person truly believes in Christ, they are saved no matter how many times the commit adultery or murder. After all one of Gods most beloved men was a murderer and adulterer. David's sins were all forgiven because He truly believed, so he repented.
If we look at all the great men of God in the Bible we find many were rebellious and heavy sinners, God allows us to sin so we can be convinced of our depravity and need of salvation. I have sinned more in my teen years and up to the age of 30 than 99% of people will in their whole lifetimes. God has forgiven me but I suffer the consequences every day.
I can't go anywhere with my wife and not run into the skeletons of my past and the word gets out and my wife is devastated by the numbers of women I deceived and took advantage of, she never would have married me if she knew about my past.
So I have it rubbed in my face on a regular basis, I tell her that God has forgiven me so she should as well but she can't find it within herself to forgive me. So sin leaves deep wounds and scars and we are stuck with them for the rest of our lives.
So it's not like we get away with the pleasure of sin, there is a heavy life long price to pay. I don't rely on the love of my wife, God gives me all the love I need so I don't need any love from any human.
I know others who had a radical conversion and they committed themselves to living the Christian life straight away and they remain faithful to this day. So we all have different experiences, the main thing is we are saved and no amount of sinning and back sliding can cause us to lose our salvation.
We believe that when a person truly believes in Christ, they are saved no matter how many times the commit adultery or murder. After all one of Gods most beloved men was a murderer and adulterer. David's sins were all forgiven because He truly believed, so he repented.
If we look at all the great men of God in the Bible we find many were rebellious and heavy sinners, God allows us to sin so we can be convinced of our depravity and need of salvation. I have sinned more in my teen years and up to the age of 30 than 99% of people will in their whole lifetimes. God has forgiven me but I suffer the consequences every day.
I can't go anywhere with my wife and not run into the skeletons of my past and the word gets out and my wife is devastated by the numbers of women I deceived and took advantage of, she never would have married me if she knew about my past.
So I have it rubbed in my face on a regular basis, I tell her that God has forgiven me so she should as well but she can't find it within herself to forgive me. So sin leaves deep wounds and scars and we are stuck with them for the rest of our lives.
So it's not like we get away with the pleasure of sin, there is a heavy life long price to pay. I don't rely on the love of my wife, God gives me all the love I need so I don't need any love from any human.
God doesn't have to do things according to your rules and your understanding of His Word. He can do anything at anytime, He is not bound by your expectations of Him. He decided to save the thief and He has the power to save him without any rituals or works, He just speaks and it is done.
There's no need to complicate the issue, allow Christ to do whatever He wants to do. Don't impose your Jewish brand of Christianity upon Him.
There's no need to complicate the issue, allow Christ to do whatever He wants to do. Don't impose your Jewish brand of Christianity upon Him.
Too many people fall prey to the concept it must be earned. They can't understand grace is a free gift if you accept it. Thus the concept of we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus is something they can't allow themselves to comprehend. Satan at work. On a political forum there are atheists and they have a very closed mind. Science proves big bang evolution fails 5 seperate scientific laws but they ignore that fact. There is a condition known as cognitive dissonance that states it is painful to hold 2 opposing facts as valid in your mind. This happens to them when confronted with the scientific evidence of big bang evolution violating 5 scientific laws while believing in it. One or the other must go. They usually reject the new to them concept.
Here is the scripture for that belief. Refute it with other scripture if you can. Keep in mind this is a quote of Jesus.
John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
R
Notice, the promise is only for the "sheep that are My own".
Stop being a sheep by returning to the world in unbelief and the promise of God's protection is no longer yours.
But anyway, you missed what I was saying to slayer. He seems to not know that in his Reformed Theology that he vehemently defends the person who falls away was never saved to begin with. Falling away is not allowed in his theology, yet he says, "no amount of sinning and back sliding can cause us to lose our salvation". That's not true in his Reformed Theology because according to it the person who falls away was never saved in the first place.
Stop being a sheep by returning to the world in unbelief and the promise of God's protection is no longer yours.
But anyway, you missed what I was saying to slayer. He seems to not know that in his Reformed Theology that he vehemently defends the person who falls away was never saved to begin with. Falling away is not allowed in his theology, yet he says, "no amount of sinning and back sliding can cause us to lose our salvation". That's not true in his Reformed Theology because according to it the person who falls away was never saved in the first place.
The sheep are those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Too many can't understand it is not earned since grace is a free gift if accepted. They fall prey to Satan's works to earn salvation. Those are the ones who will be rejected at judgement. For some years I wondered about that verse then realized they were counting on works instead of grace.
Correct. Those who hear His voice are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Ignoring grace and using works means they ignored the real gospel message of we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Grace is a free unearned gift from God. As such no one can boast about their salvation. All we can do is be exceedingly grateful for grace,
R
The problem in the church is not that "too many" people think salvation is earned, but rather that grace means they are relieved of any responsibility to produce the fruit of the kingdom.
Being responsible to produce fruit in keeping with faith in Christ does not mean salvation is by works. It means if you have the Holy Spirit in you in salvation you are a changed person and so by virtue of having the Spirit you are expected to have a changed/changing life or else you are simply showing yourself to not have the Holy Spirit in you in salvation.
Which verse exactly?
Being responsible to produce fruit in keeping with faith in Christ does not mean salvation is by works. It means if you have the Holy Spirit in you in salvation you are a changed person and so by virtue of having the Spirit you are expected to have a changed/changing life or else you are simply showing yourself to not have the Holy Spirit in you in salvation.
Which verse exactly?
Here is the revelant verses. I use NIV for normal reading and AMPC for study since it gives all of the meanings of the original language words. Note the ones objecting are using works for salvation not grace.
Matthew 7
NIV
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
AMPC
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [p]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great and complete was the fall of it.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
Matthew 7
NIV
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
AMPC
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a [p]sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand.
27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great and complete was the fall of it.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
That’s not what verse 27 says.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-28
Those who hear with the intent of doing what is heard, and know Him; joined to Him (eternal life), in which they follow Him, continually being led by Him, are those who do not get snatched from His hand, and will receive eternal life.
Do you know what happens to one of His sheep who wanders from Him because they stop hearing His Voice?
They become lost!
Do the lost need to be saved?
JLB
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:27-28
Those who hear with the intent of doing what is heard, and know Him; joined to Him (eternal life), in which they follow Him, continually being led by Him, are those who do not get snatched from His hand, and will receive eternal life.
Do you know what happens to one of His sheep who wanders from Him because they stop hearing His Voice?
They become lost!
Do the lost need to be saved?
JLB
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Basic gospel message.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
James 2 states that faith without works is dead. Therefore while works doesn't save the lack of them says no faith in Jesus. Jesus put it "By their fruits you shall know them." He pointed this out in a warning about wolves in sheep's clothing.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
James 2 states that faith without works is dead. Therefore while works doesn't save the lack of them says no faith in Jesus. Jesus put it "By their fruits you shall know them." He pointed this out in a warning about wolves in sheep's clothing.