Sabbath

[justpassinthrough]

People think that refers to the law of Moses written on stone.

But if you read the bible you will never find God referring to His Law, Commandments and statutes as being those given to Moses.

People assume.

Especially people who WANT to work at the law in their own understanding and strength.

Under the New Covenant, He writes His law on our heart and mind.



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4




JPT

 

[posthuman]

Actually it was [the people] that was at fault,
not Gods Covenant, or [His Statues and judgments].



Not sure where you find fault in the promises given to Abraham.
The only place I know that says [finding fault with] them , is verse below.

Hebrews 8:8 (KJV)
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Finding fault with [them] , the people of Israel, not Gods covenant.

When you said [when was fault found with it],
What covenant or promise then where you talking about,
that you referred as [it], that was faulty ?

i didn't find fault with God's promise to Abraham.
to me, the idea that it needs to be renewed or that it lacked sufficient escrow on God's part connotes lacking.
so i am thinking that the people who hold the idea it needed renewing or was incomplete in some way is ascribing fault.
the idea of necessity of renewal insinuates doubt in the original terms.
perhaps y'all ought to define what you mean by "renewed" -- is this an overdue library book? something that's expired? something the terms have lapsed on or were found to be poor & ineffective in some way?

Hebrews 8:8 quotes Jeremiah 31.
definitely talking about the Sinai covenant. not Abrahamic covenant.
simply have a look at 8:9 to confirm that.

so i'm asking again, are we talking about Abraham or about Moses??
i think i'm seeing a bit of a potpourri that doesn't seem to be quite right.

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

not once did Jesus or any one else in the N.T. command anyone to keep it. and, since gentiles were never under the Law, they ( we, I ) were never commanded to keep it.

I would point out the scripture that proves you dead wrong but why?

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

Scripture is scripture, God didn't divide it up so you may listen to one part but ignore God in another. If you are reading one verse telling you that God made law one way and another that God made it another way then you have something wrong. Scripture agrees with scripture.

If you are reading that God created completely different kinds of humans and tells one kind one thing and another something different, then you are corrupting scripture.

An old Indian chief told his women "Me chief, you squaw". God doesn't do that to any of us.

I would say from reading their first inflammatory remarks that their issue is with Jews.

 

[Dan_473]

Well here are t he 3 different entries for chadash:

View attachment 187021

View attachment 187022 View attachment 187023

and just as you uoted the new house passage there is the new moon passage that shows renewed.... What im saying is before the vowel pointes were added it was a singular word, the vowel points were added a few thousand years later to the original language, we dont know if they properly or improperly added what points to each usage. So we have to look to the word of Yah for doctrine.

Im not going to give a full laid out answer brcause I have many time and most gets ignored, so I will touch on those 2 passages were talked about:

you said this is about a covenant with David? Review this and tell me what you think:

"You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth "

IS that David? "firstborn" "higher than the kings of the earth?" or is that Messiah?

and thius "I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun "

HIs seed? His throne foreve? David or MEssiah?

Revelation 22:16-17, “I, יהושע, have sent My messenger to witness to you these matters in the assemblies. I am the Root and the Offspring of Dawiḏ, the Bright and Morning Star.”And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And he who hears, let him say, “Come!” And he who thirsts, come! And he who desires it, take the water of life without paying!"

Luke 1:32-33, “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And יהוה Elohim shall give Him the throne of His father Dawiḏ. And He shall reign over the house of Ya‛aqoḇ forever, and there shall be no end to His reign.”

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”


and this:

Psalms 105:6-10, “O seed of Abraham His servant, Children of Ya‛aqoḇ, His chosen ones! He is יהוה our Strength; His right-rulings are in all the earth.

He has remembered His covenant forever,

The Word He commanded, for a thousand generations,

The covenant He made with Aḇraham, (YHWH continued the same covenant with Yitsḥaq, He did not abolish it and make a new one or make multiple covenants different ones with different people, rather He made one covenant with all mankind)

And His oath to Yitsḥaq, (YHWH continued the same covenant with Ya‛aqoḇ, He did not abolish it and make a new one or make multiple covenants different ones with different people, rather He made one covenant with all mankind)

And established it to Ya‛aqoḇ for a law, (YHWH continued the same covenant with Yisra’yl , He did not abolish it and make a new one or make multiple covenants different ones with different people, rather He made one covenant with all mankind)

To Yisra’yl – an everlasting covenant.”

That is why Paul said:

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Yisra’yl who belongs to Yisra’yl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

so it sounds to me that the bottom line when it comes to the Hebrew word for new or renew is that it can mean either, we would decide based on context.

So just talking about Jeremiah 31, it could be New Covenant, or renewed Covenant.

yes it looks to me that Psalm 89 is talking about a covenant that God makes with David to establish his throne forever. it talks about David always having a son to set up on his throne. I'm not sure if the psalm numbering is inspired or not. I know chapter divisions in other books of the Bible are not part of the original text. so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this song may be the work of several authors putting different ideas together.

But in that it talks about David being higher than the kings of the Earth, that would be both a short-term prophecy, and a long-term one referring to Jesus.

But either way, it's not the same as the Covenant in Jeremiah 31, is it?

I disagree that There's basically only one Covenant in the Bible with all humans that God alters over time, if that's what you're saying.

the Covenant that God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt is not Eternal according to Hebrews, as I understand it, because it will become obsolete.

Paul talks about in Corinthians the reading of the old Covenant. this only makes sense to me if that is somehow separate from the reading of the New Covenant.

as I understand it, Covenant agreements were sealed with blood, though I'm not sure if that's in all cases or just some. but Jesus says this is the New Covenant in my blood. so that Covenant is not sealed until Jesus sheds his blood. if that is the same Covenant that God made with Abraham, then Abraham's Covenant was not sealed all that time.

 

[Dan_473]

• For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

• Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

• Do you believe that we, as a new creation, are new as in something different, other than human or are we "new" as in having a quality we didn't have before?

The trouble with going to another person's "commentary" in Bible Hub or wherever, it's just that "man's" opinion, as well meaning as it may be.


When we use scripture and it's context, then we have established a sound definition from the source.

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Galatians 3:15-16​

• Do you understand who made covenant with Abraham?

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2​

• Do you understand who preached the Gospel to Abraham?

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8​

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”​

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”​

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59​

JPT

I believe that when we are born again, we receive a new spirit that is born of God. thus, we are brothers of Jesus. we are that way a new creation. but we live in the same human body, and on the same created Earth.

when I said I went to Bible Hub I didn't mean I went to Bible commentaries. I went to the pages for The Roots of the words in question, and looked at the definitions, and how they were used in other places in scripture as well as in secular sources.

I think that Galatians 3 is talking about how the law does not make the promise of no effect.

yes, God made the Covenant with Abraham.

God preached the gospel to Abraham. no I'm not sure, in fact I suspect it's not true, that God used the same words to Abraham that the apostles use when they preach the gospel in the New Testament.

an interesting thing to note about Galatians chapter 3, is that Paul talks about even if it's only a human-covenant, no one adds conditions to it.

based on Romans chapter 4, at the end, I believe the promise that God gives to Abraham relates to us in the sense that we also will have righteousness credited to us as Abraham did when we believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.

 

[Blik]

I would say from reading their first inflammatory remarks that their issue is with Jews.

Are you saying it is a problem to consider Jews and gentiles as both loved and cared for by God equally? Do you mean that you actually believe that one scripture is for Jews that God looks as a different kind of human and one for gentiles?

There is all kinds of discrimination in this world. There is the one about the color of the skin dividing humans, for example. Now it seems that you want scripture to discriminate between Jews and gentiles.

That would change who God is, even. An all loving God would not be a God who decides against or for any one group of people based on race. God wants the Jews thanked for being a race He uses to explain His ways with us, but that is not based on race. It is based on
God using them.

 

[Yahshua]

not once did Jesus or any one else in the N.T. command anyone to keep it. and, since gentiles were never under the Law, they ( we, I ) were never commanded to keep it.

Commandment:
"Remember the sabbath and keep it holy..."

Christ's words:
Matthew 12:12 - "...Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Lawful = Obeying the law; confirming to the law; permissible.

 

[GRASSESANDDRAGONFLIES]

Are you saying it is a problem to consider Jews and gentiles as both loved and cared for by God equally? Do you mean that you actually believe that one scripture is for Jews that God looks as a different kind of human and one for gentiles?

There is all kinds of discrimination in this world. There is the one about the color of the skin dividing humans, for example. Now it seems that you want scripture to discriminate between Jews and gentiles.

That would change who God is, even. An all loving God would not be a God who decides against or for any one group of people based on race. God wants the Jews thanked for being a race He uses to explain His ways with us, but that is not based on race. It is based on
God using them.

I believe you should address your query to the person who took issue with the Sabbath because they imagine it is for Jews only.

 

[Dan_473]

• For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matthew 26:28

• Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

• Do you believe that we, as a new creation, are new as in something different, other than human or are we "new" as in having a quality we didn't have before?

The trouble with going to another person's "commentary" in Bible Hub or wherever, it's just that "man's" opinion, as well meaning as it may be.


When we use scripture and it's context, then we have established a sound definition from the source.

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Galatians 3:15-16​

• Do you understand who made covenant with Abraham?

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:1-2​

• Do you understand who preached the Gospel to Abraham?

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8​

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”​

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”​

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”​

Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59​

JPT

I also see that the translation you used says ratified by God in Christ. But apparently that phrase in Christ is questionable as to whether it was there in the original.

 

[Shamah]

so it sounds to me that the bottom line when it comes to the Hebrew word for new or renew is that it can mean either, we would decide based on context.

So just talking about Jeremiah 31, it could be New Covenant, or renewed Covenant.

yes it looks to me that Psalm 89 is talking about a covenant that God makes with David to establish his throne forever. it talks about David always having a son to set up on his throne. I'm not sure if the psalm numbering is inspired or not. I know chapter divisions in other books of the Bible are not part of the original text. so it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this song may be the work of several authors putting different ideas together.

But in that it talks about David being higher than the kings of the Earth, that would be both a short-term prophecy, and a long-term one referring to Jesus.

But either way, it's not the same as the Covenant in Jeremiah 31, is it?

I disagree that There's basically only one Covenant in the Bible with all humans that God alters over time, if that's what you're saying.

the Covenant that God made with Israel when they came out of Egypt is not Eternal according to Hebrews, as I understand it, because it will become obsolete.

Paul talks about in Corinthians the reading of the old Covenant. this only makes sense to me if that is somehow separate from the reading of the New Covenant.

as I understand it, Covenant agreements were sealed with blood, though I'm not sure if that's in all cases or just some. but Jesus says this is the New Covenant in my blood. so that Covenant is not sealed until Jesus sheds his blood. if that is the same Covenant that God made with Abraham, then Abraham's Covenant was not sealed all that time.

I would agree chadascan be based on context, Im not against that idea. About PS 89 it says :coveneat He will not break and it will stand fist with Him (Messiah) with the other verses I porvided to me it's clear. and about Paul and even the book of Hebrews, one thing we lose sight of is that these writers lived with Levitical temple service, to chage tha WAS A DRASTIC change, something we today just go, ohhh yeah new priesthood, cool. BUT IT REALLY WAS BIG. and I personally do believe just like the Levitical priesthood was a place holder, so was the blod on the east end of the ark, because after Yahshua blood on the west end there is no more need for blood AND think about this, if the blood, of bulls and goats and lambs and rams could never truly take away sin and the Messiahs shed blood was indeed for all mankind who would accept it, then even those before Him only have mercy because of the Messiah;s blood, thus would make sense it was not properly/fully sealed until Messiah...

 

[lightbearer]

Yes they were. Two separate things being spoken of in Hebrews 4. The Gospel rest and the the Seventh Day Sabbath.

There remaineth therefore a rest (a Sabbath Keeping) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest (the Gospel), he ceases from his own works, as God did from his.

As GOD did from HIS is a DIRECT COMPARISON. He that has entered into his rest; the Gospel. Ceases from his own work like GOD did from HIS. GOD did not cease from trying to work out HIS own righteousness outside of Christ. GOD rested the Seventh Day from all HIS work which HE had made. Physical labor not Spiritual! So we rest from our physical labor also.
(Heb 4:1-10 KJV)

That is NOT talking about keeping sabbath.

That is talking about Rest.

.

Two rests in verses 9-11
One rest is katapausis; the Gospel. mention in verse 10 and 11. Verse nine's rest is Sabbatismos; Sabbath keeping and should be translated so because that is how translates and it would add less confusion for some.

Two separate rests being spoken of in Hebrews 4. The Gospel rest and the the Seventh Day Sabbath. A distinction is being made between the two in verses 9 and 10. A rest (Sabbath keeping) that remains and a rest (the Gospel) that has been entered. The ceasing from their own works as GOD did from HIS (a Sabbath keeping) is something that is being done in addition to entering into the Rest (Gospel).

There remaineth therefore a rest (a Sabbath Keeping) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest (the Gospel), he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour (be diligent) therefore to enter into that rest (the Gospel), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (hard heart; stiff necked disobedience). For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
(Heb 4:9-12 KJV)

As GOD did from HIS is a DIRECT COMPARISON. He that has entered into his rest; the Gospel. Ceases from his own work like GOD did from HIS. GOD did not cease from trying to work out HIS own righteousness outside of Christ. GOD rested the Seventh Day from all HIS work which HE had made. Physical labor not Spiritual! So we rest from our physical labor also.

As God did from His is a direct comparison. God rested the 7th day. and the 8th. and the 9th. and He continues to Rest.

GOD is constantly working
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Know you not the Spirit of God is in you. It is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure.
(Joh 5:17 KJV)

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest
This seems pretty meaningless if there is already and ONLY a sabbath rest. Why would someone need to come to Christ to receive a sabbath rest???

The rest in Matthew is a call to the Gospel; a call to repentance; through His Spirit.

 

[PS]

The rest in Matthew is a call to the Gospel; a call to repentance; through His Spirit.

The rest in Matthew, the "Gospel Rest" that you speak of, is for all those who believe in Him and accept him as their Saviour. This is the second rest that is finally fulfilled when we enter into Christ's glorious kingdom. The Gospel rest you speak of is taught mainly in the first four books of the New Testament and belongs to the New Covenant.

The first rest belongs to the Old Covenant and is the 7th day rest "which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 KJV)

 

[posthuman]

The clause "There remaineth therefore" is in the indicative mood. Which means it is a simple statement of fact; therefore a command.

imperative is command form of language. the statement that a rest remains comes after it is explained that rest didn't come through Joshua, as demonstrated by God speaking through David appointing 'another day' called 'today'

His rest is revealed through this as having a substance beyond the shadow which is the physical sign of ritual observation given at Sinai.

the intent is not physical but spiritual.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I believe that when we are born again, we receive a new spirit that is born of God. thus, we are brothers of Jesus. we are that way a new creation. but we live in the same human body, and on the same created Earth.

Amen.

yes, God made the Covenant with Abraham.

The Lord Jesus, before He became flesh made covenant with Abraham.


Abraham walked with the same Lord we do today. Jesus Christ, the Son of God.




Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

I also see that the translation you used says ratified by God in Christ. But apparently that phrase in Christ is questionable as to whether it was there in the original.

Ok questionable. Says who?


Meanwhile, can you please answer the question I asked?

• Do you believe that we, as a new creation, are new as in something different, other than human or are we "new" as in having a quality we didn't have before?

JPT

 

[posthuman]

The Lord Jesus, before He became flesh made covenant with Abraham.

was fault found with it?

Galatians 3:17-18
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the Law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance [be] of the Law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

this says it was by promise, and that it was confirmed already by God in Christ.

 

[justpassinthrough]

was fault found with it?

I don't know what this means.

Galatians 3:17-18
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the Law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance [be] of the Law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

this says it was by promise, and that it was confirmed already by God in Christ.

"already" as in before the foundation of the world?


And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17


And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Genesis 17:2



When did the Lord, initiate His part of the cutting of flesh and shedding of blood, in Making covenant with Abraham.


The sign that confirmed a person was in covenant with the Lord was circumcision; the cutting of flesh and shedding of blood.



The Lord confirmed His part, when He became flesh.



JPT

 

[posthuman]

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. Galatians 3:17

does "before" mean before the Law or does it refer to far later, at the circumcision of Jesus flesh, or at His crucifixion?
according to the text, not according to anyone's eisegesis. what does the text itself indicate 'before' refers to?

 

[posthuman]

I don't know what this means.

what I mean is that Hebrews 8:8-9, Jeremiah 31 is with reference to the Sinai covenant not to the Abrahamic covenant. Abraham was given a covenant by promise, not law, and therefore if fault is found with the Abrahamic covenant it can only be in the part of the one who promised, who is the Almighty, therefore it is impossible that fault lies in it. it has no need of renewal, period, to my understanding.