Not By Works

[stillness]

Scriptual fact is the "rest in MEssiah" is in His Kingdom any who claim to be in that rest now are making up their own definition of that rest, Scripture clearly states:

Revelation 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!"

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

We partake of Jesus in the communion of the last supper: before He died in the Garden when our sin placed on Him. "Not My will but Yours be done." Partaking of Jesus, before He died: to follow Him in His sufferings and death. "Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest from their labors, and their works do follow them!" "I cared not to know anything among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified," implies we can partake of Jesus and not follow Him in His sufferings and death, "For this cause many are weak and sick among you and many sleep. But if we were discerning, (discerning that we are members of the body of Christ) we would not come under judgment. Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." Following Jesus in His sufferings and death is only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit: not by works. "Follow the Spirit as your guide, that you may resist the flesh." "What is gain for me is lost for Christ." Putting away our achievement's is necessary to enter into rest in Christ. "It's no longer I that lives but Christ," ends our works.

 

[Cee]

I respect your view, I do not think it is accurate, as we went back and forth for a while in polite discussion/debate, then you asked me some questions about my belief and I told you it would take a while but I will lay them out (paraphrase), I did then you posted in 3 mins I was wrong, I dont even know how you could have read that so fast. Also before I posted I tolf you Im almost done, because it took so long and you replied something to the effect of a positive manner of assessing it, but it change once it was posted.

I do feel it was a little messed up, but I want to say I by no means think your bad or anything like that, I just put a lot of effort into explaing with my words and Scripture why I believe what I do.

Could you tell me now, as I also asked today, what you understanding of Rev 14:12-13 is?

we could start there and fully expound on that before we move on?

Well I do apologize. The way you recount those events to me does sound messed up. I can’t recall with perfect accuracy those events, but I’m sorry if I disregarded you in any way. Not sure what happened there.

In response to your question on Revelation. I’m of the crowd that it was written around 67-68 AD right before the Temple was destroyed.

I believe a lot of it’s warnings were for people to know judgment was coming very soon.

I also hold the viewpoint on Revelation that it’s about the supremacy of Christ. He is the Revelation. Not the Revelation of the beast, antichrist, or end times.

I’ve seen Revelation interpreted millions of different ways and usually everyone believes they are 100% correct. Yet, all predictions of the end times since Paul’s day have not been correct.

Also Revelation is written in very prophetic, allegorical language. It’s visual many times almost parabolic which means at times the most literal sense isn’t the correct interpretation.

Anyways, that’s the most honest way I know how to approach it.

So in that passage, it says they will have rest from their labors. I believe you’re inferring this to mean there is no current rest from our labors?

 

[Shamah]

Well I do apologize. The way you recount those events to me does sound messed up. I can’t recall with perfect accuracy those events, but I’m sorry if I disregarded you in any way. Not sure what happened there.

In response to your question on Revelation. I’m of the crowd that it was written around 67-68 AD right before the Temple was destroyed.

I believe a lot of it’s warnings were for people to know judgment was coming very soon.

I also hold the viewpoint on Revelation that it’s about the supremacy of Christ. He is the Revelation. Not the Revelation of the beast, antichrist, or end times.

I’ve seen Revelation interpreted millions of different ways and usually everyone believes they are 100% correct. Yet, all predictions of the end times since Paul’s day have not been correct.

Also Revelation is written in very prophetic, allegorical language. It’s visual many times almost parabolic which means at times the most literal sense isn’t the correct interpretation.

Anyways, that’s the most honest way I know how to approach it.

So in that passage, it says they will have rest from their labors. I believe you’re inferring this to mean there is no current rest from our labors?

I am currently speaking to a friend on my phone, about Yah and the like, so I will not be able to full reply this minute, until Im done on the phone... sorry, but I will reply to this post in full when im done.

 

[Seohce]

19Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


OUR LORD JESUS BEFORE GOING BACK TO THE FATHER INSTRUCTED HIS DISCIPLES TO TEACH OBEDIENCE UNTO ALL NATIONS.


IF ANYONE WOULD TEACH THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WORD, TEACHINGS, LAWS AND COMMANDS, IS NOT NECESSARY OR PART OF SALVATION, DOES HE NOT TEACH CONTRARY TO THE LORD’S TEACHINGS?


WHEN THE LORD SAID THAT “IF YOU WANT TO ENTER LIFE, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS”, AND SOMEONE ELSE WOULD SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE BECAUSE “FAITH ALONE SAVES”. IS IT NOT A CLEAR REJECTION, NULLIFICATION, DISRESPECT, DISOBEDIENCE, UNBELIEF AND MOCKERY OF GOD’S WORD?


15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being ABOMINABLE, and DISOBEDIENT and unto every good work REPROBATE.


4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, TURNING THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO (A LICENSE FOR) LASCIVIOUSNESS, and DENYING the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.


...Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men….Full well ye reject the commandment of God... making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.(mark 7:6-13)


...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.(isaiah 5:20-24)


...Be not deceived; GÒD IS NOT MOCKED: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.(galatians 6:7-10)


32who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are WORTHY OF DEATH, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS ßAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.



IS IT NOT APPOINTED FOR MEN TO DIE ONCE AND FACE JUDGMENT AFTER? (hebrews 9:27-28)


11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOÙND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.


“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD”


JESUS HAS NOT FOUND YOUR WORKS COMPLETE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. REMEMBER THEREFORE WHÀT YOU HEARD AND RECEIVED. OBEY IT, AND REPENT.(revelations 3:1-6)



47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48HE THAT REJECTETH ME, and RECEIVETH NOT MY WORDS, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL. JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I KNOW THAT HIS COMMANDMENT IS LIFE EVERLASTING: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

 

[Seohce]

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)


OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:


Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.


JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.


THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.


JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)


WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?


WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)


IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?


JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.


Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?


GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )


Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?


John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.


2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.


DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)


NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?

Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.


ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?


DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?


Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.


James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)

 

[Cee]

Okay I got my laptop for this... I'll walk you through my process.

Here is the Scripture: (ESV)

Revelation 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

So, the first thing I noticed is "commandments" of God is the word, "entolas".

Interestingly, entolas is also interpreted "instructions" as Colossians 4:10.

10Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, welcome him),

Which means that "commandments of God" is not necessarily the 10 commandments written on stone. Also in light of Paul saying, that the the ministry of the 10 commandments of stone have passed away and were abolished that fits with the whole of Scripture.

So we are left with, the endurance of the saints is those who keep the commandments/instructions of God and their faith in Jesus.

This context doesn't discuss what the commandments/instructions of God are specifically.

So next, I first see what Jesus has to say about this.

What are the commandments of God, Jesus?

Matt 22:34And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’d 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Okay Jesus says, two commandments are important. Love God and love others as ourself. This is the commandments of God that sum up everything in the Law and that the Prophets have declared. So I know these 2 are the sum of every commandment.

But what about the works of God?

Elsewhere in John 6 Jesus says this:

27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

So just like us, Pharisees asked Jesus, what works must we do? And Jesus says - believe on Me.

This is step 1. We love God by loving Whom He loves. And by obeying Him.

Now here's what's interesting... Jesus says this later in John 13:

34A new commandment I give to you, that you should love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.”

At first glance, it appears Jesus is giving an old commandment. Didn't He already say to love one another? But, upon further notice we see a small change. Love people not as you love yourself, but love people as *I* have loved you. He gave His life up for us.

He continues on that to be His disciple and for people to know it they will see our love for one another. Loving one another, forgiving one another, and treating one another like He treats us are the commandments of God.

First we believe on Him. And we are loved. And then we love others like He loves us.

So what are the deeds and labors that follow us?

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Notice our deeds/labors in Christ start the moment we are IN Christ. Not because we are trying to be saved, but because we are saved.

In Matt 5 - Jesus says it this way, "in the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

This is getting long, I can keep going if it's helpful, but I hope that helps explain what I believe good works are that follow us.

It is our love for one another. We are in Christ. So how we treat each other is how we treat Him. Our labors is the works we do in His name. It's not be saved, but because we are saved. And we endure His instructions, which are by His very Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."

So who overcomes and endures, right?

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Our faith is the sign of our endurance. Our faith shows we've already endured, we've already overcome.

 

[Seohce]

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

 

[Shamah]

Well I do apologize. The way you recount those events to me does sound messed up. I can’t recall with perfect accuracy those events, but I’m sorry if I disregarded you in any way. Not sure what happened there.

No worries, man, honestly/

In response to your question on Revelation. I’m of the crowd that it was written around 67-68 AD right before the Temple was destroyed.

I believe a lot of it’s warnings were for people to know judgment was coming very soon.

I also hold the viewpoint on Revelation that it’s about the supremacy of Christ. He is the Revelation. Not the Revelation of the beast, antichrist, or end times.

yes I agree and would say Yahshua's return is the crowning event.

I’ve seen Revelation interpreted millions of different ways and usually everyone believes they are 100% correct. Yet, all predictions of the end times since Paul’s day have not been correct.

Well I beleive Sciripture is right, but man;s intrepratation and even understadning due to not s ogodd translation has been wrong.

Also Revelation is written in very prophetic, allegorical language. It’s visual many times almost parabolic which means at times the most literal sense isn’t the correct interpretation.

Anyways, that’s the most honest way I know how to approach it.

I agree

So in that passage, it says they will have rest from their labors. I believe you’re inferring this to mean there is no current rest from our labors?

Well this does not give your view, it asks me a question...

Revelation 14:12-13,12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,c here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע. 13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”

My understanding is

12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע.

The set apart one/saints/those entering the kingdom keep His Commands and have faith in Messiah, this is a descriptive factor.

13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”"

If "‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest" That in iteself shows rest is not in the flesh but in the kingdom, in the eternal kingdom of YHWH, where Yahsua will be the lught adn there will be no more daith or pain or tears...

This is the rest Yahshua offers....

Revelation 21:23, “And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it, for the esteem of Yah lightened it, and the Lamb is its lamp.”

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

 

[Shamah]

Okay I got my laptop for this... I'll walk you through my process.

Here is the Scripture: (ESV)

Revelation 14:12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

So, the first thing I noticed is "commandments" of God is the word, "entolas".

Interestingly, entolas is also interpreted "instructions" as Colossians 4:10.

10Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, welcome him),

Which means that "commandments of God" is not necessarily the 10 commandments written on stone. Also in light of Paul saying, that the the ministry of the 10 commandments of stone have passed away and were abolished that fits with the whole of Scripture.

So we are left with, the endurance of the saints is those who keep the commandments/instructions of God and their faith in Jesus.

This context doesn't discuss what the commandments/instructions of God are specifically.

So next, I first see what Jesus has to say about this.

What are the commandments of God, Jesus?

Matt 22:34And when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they themselves gathered together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested Him with a question: 36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?”

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’d 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Okay Jesus says, two commandments are important. Love God and love others as ourself. This is the commandments of God that sum up everything in the Law and that the Prophets have declared. So I know these 2 are the sum of every commandment.

But what about the works of God?

Elsewhere in John 6 Jesus says this:

27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

So just like us, Pharisees asked Jesus, what works must we do? And Jesus says - believe on Me.

This is step 1. We love God by loving Whom He loves. And by obeying Him.

Now here's what's interesting... Jesus says this later in John 13:

34A new commandment I give to you, that you should love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.”

At first glance, it appears Jesus is giving an old commandment. Didn't He already say to love one another? But, upon further notice we see a small change. Love people not as you love yourself, but love people as *I* have loved you. He gave His life up for us.

He continues on that to be His disciple and for people to know it they will see our love for one another. Loving one another, forgiving one another, and treating one another like He treats us are the commandments of God.

First we believe on Him. And we are loved. And then we love others like He loves us.

So what are the deeds and labors that follow us?

Colossians 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Notice our deeds/labors in Christ start the moment we are IN Christ. Not because we are trying to be saved, but because we are saved.

In Matt 5 - Jesus says it this way, "in the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

This is getting long, I can keep going if it's helpful, but I hope that helps explain what I believe good works are that follow us.

It is our love for one another. We are in Christ. So how we treat each other is how we treat Him. Our labors is the works we do in His name. It's not be saved, but because we are saved. And we endure His instructions, which are by His very Spirit.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

John 15:3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."

So who overcomes and endures, right?

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Our faith is the sign of our endurance. Our faith shows we've already endured, we've already overcome.

I have to log off bacsue I am going to leave for a bit, I replied above to your earlier post then saw this one just now, the main part in our debate here it seems you did not mention? the part of v13 "
Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest"

Our whole convo got started because the rest, is the rest Yahshua speaks of the rest in Rev 14:13 or is there another rest...

 

[Cee]

I have to log off bacsue I am going to leave for a bit, I replied above to your earlier post then saw this one just now, the main part in our debate here it seems you did not mention? the part of v13 "
Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Messiah from now on! Yes, says the Spirit: because they will rest"

Our whole convo got started because the rest, is the rest Yahshua speaks of the rest in Rev 14:13 or is there another rest...

Oh I see, sorry I would have continued on.

We rest from our labors of working in His name. At the time, being a Christian was serious persecution. We suffer a little bit, but not even close to the scale that the readers of the time did. Loving people who hated you could definitely be considered a "labor". I don't believe this is talking about a spiritual rest, but a physical rest. Because they die to receive it.

Remember when Paul says it is to my gain that I die, but your gain that I stay? He wanted to go to Jesus, he said he had kept of the fight of faith. He had run his race. He pressed forward to the upward call of Christ. He was talking about physical exertions. Traveling around the world, being persecuted, beaten, fighting off beasts, shipwrecked... you name it. Death for him was indeed a rest from his labors. And the good he did unto the Lord is still following him.

 

[Cee]

No worries, man, honestly/



yes I agree and would say Yahshua's return is the crowning event.



Well I beleive Sciripture is right, but man;s intrepratation and even understadning due to not s ogodd translation has been wrong.



I agree



Well this does not give your view, it asks me a question...

Revelation 14:12-13,12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,c here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע. 13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”

My understanding is

12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע.

The set apart one/saints/those entering the kingdom keep His Commands and have faith in Messiah, this is a descriptive factor.

13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest from their labours, and their works follow with them.”"

If "‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they rest" That in iteself shows rest is not in the flesh but in the kingdom, in the eternal kingdom of YHWH, where Yahsua will be the lught adn there will be no more daith or pain or tears...

This is the rest Yahshua offers....

Revelation 21:23, “And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, to shine in it, for the esteem of Yah lightened it, and the Lamb is its lamp.”

Revelation 21:3-4, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of YHWH is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and YHWH Himself will be with them, and be their Father. And YHWH will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

I hear you. I believe Christ is my spiritual rest. In fact, when He repeats the 10 commandments. And increases our observance. "You have heard, but I say to you.." He leaves out the Sabbath. Because we enter into Him as our rest, but yeah I agree the Kingdom (physical one) that comes will give us physical rest. Like you said all of our pains and tears will be no more.

I believe Revelation is describing a physical Kingdom. But we are currently in His spiritual Kingdom.

 

[VCO]

Mat 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

When did the First Covenant END, and when did the Second Covenant Start?

You never thought about that DID YOU?

It started no earlier than HIS RESURRECTION, and most will say AT THE DAY OF PENTECOST after His Resurrection.

 

[Studyman]

="VCO, post: 3687675, member: 178202"]

<><.🕇.><>

No, you cannot use one verse to cancel out, or contradict another, GOD DID NOT MAKE ANY CONTRADICTIONS. My BIBLE has NO Contradictions; how about yours.

I am a BELIEVER that THINKS GOD WANTS OUR LOVE FOR HIM TO BE EQUAL EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK, NOT just One Day A week like you seem too. However, I do not criticize you for wanting to worship ONLY on a Saturday. Besides, Jesus reiterated 9 of the 10 Commandments, guess which one HE DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT? The Sabbath Commandment, because it was INTENDED to be a Sign of the Covenant between GOD and ISRAEL, it says SO:

No, my Bible doesn't contradict itself either. In my Bible Jesus said it was "Lawful" to do good on the Sabbath. I can't find where rejecting His Sabbath or any of His 10 Commandments is ever considered Good. I would be interested to see if your does.

There is a lot of scripture that the Word which became Flesh had written about His Sabbath. He said, as I have quoted many times, that both the Jew and the Gentile that keeps from polluting His Sabbath (Rejecting would indeed be polluting in my opinion) would be given names better that that of sons and Daughter. Since Jesus said He didn't come to destroy the OT, I expect He intended for us to have the same attitude towards it as Paul did.(He believed ALL THINGS written therein. In fact, Paul called the OT "The Gospel of Christ" in Romans one, and Jesus said that "ALL" things written about Him in it would be fulfilled.) Since at the time of His telling of this there was nothing but the OT, which explains why Paul Believed ALL THINGS written in it.

Exodus 31:12-17 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”


Because of GOD'S EXPLANATION, I am not CONVINCED that I should ESTEEM ONE DAY ABOVE THE REST; I should have a HEART ATTITUDE OF WORSHIP TO THE LORD, every day of the WEEK, and therefore I can attend Worship Services ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, or ALL DAYS OF A WEEK.


Romans 14:5 (ESV)
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.


The SABBATH, was and IS, a specific COMMANDMENT that is a Sign of the Covenant between GOD and ISRAEL forever.

Romans 11:
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Maybe you have found another way as did Eve or the Pharisees. But according to my Bible Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews". God doesn't bend and turn towards the gentiles, Rather, the gentiles are to bend and turn to God.

Do you believe Paul here? Is he not saying that the Gentiles "partake of the same Holy Tree that the "First Fruit" partook of? And who is the First Fruit in your Bible. The Messiah is the First Fruit in mine. Are we not told to "Walk even as he Walked". Did Jesus walk as a Gentile? Or did He walk in the Commandments of the God of the Bible?

Hebrews 7:22 (HCSB)

22 So Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-7 (CSBBible)
6 But Jesus has now obtained a superior ministry, and to that degree he is the mediator of a better covenant, which has been established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second one.

And what does your Bible say was wrong with the first Covenant? I'll share with you what mine says.

Heb. 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Who is the THEM? Was it not the Levite Priests that led the people astray? And what did the Word which became Flesh say the new Covenant was? Let's ask Him.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

How was the Law administered in the Old covenant? Was it not through the Levite Priests?

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

I noticed you omitted this scripture from your post. It tells us who was responsible for the administration of God's Laws in the Old Covenant. The Levitical Priests. It also gives us the topic of this entire chapter.

But Jesus, as the Word, said "after those days" there would be no more Levite Priests to filter God's Word, He would "write them on our heart. No mention of destroying them, altering them, changing them, just that His People would have them written on their heart. does your Bible say the same thing?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How were sins forgiven in the Old Covenant? Was it not by "Works" performed by the Levites Priests according to the Law of Moses? Wasn't it the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial, ceremonial "Works of the Law" that the Jews were still pushing on to the Galatians?

But Jesus, as the Word of God, said "after those days" He would forgive sins directly. No more Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins.

No mention of destroying the definition of sin, altering the definition of sin, only a change in the manner in which sins are forgiven. At least that is what my Bible teaches.

So according to the God of my Bible there are two things that the New Covenant changed.

#1. How God's Laws are administered, no more Levite Priests to filter His Word.

#2. How our sins are forgiven. No more Levitical sacrificial "Works of the Law" for justification of sins.

Can you show me where He says anything more?

Continued

 

[Studyman]

="VCO, post: 3687675, member: 178202"]



Hebrews 7:12-22 (NRSV)

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

13 Now the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests

According to my Bible the Levitical Priesthood was given specifically to the Levites. No other "Tribe" could hold the position of "High Priest". This truth should also be in your Bible.

But Jesus was not a Levite, but from the tribe of Judah so He could not "lawfully" partake of the High Priest duties and enter the Holy of Holies. So what happened? How was He able to take over the Priesthood?

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Jesus could not lawfully become a High Priest of God unless the Law regarding who could ever the Holy of Holies was "changed".

No mention of the elimination of the Sabbath, or the altering of the definition of sin. Only that God changed the Law as to who could become the High Priest.

The Levite Priests had corrupted God's Priesthood, corrupted His Covenant. Like Jesus said;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


Jer. 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So God, as Prophesied, made another Covenant. "8 For finding fault with them," (Corrupt Levite Priests which killed Him and the Prophets)) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

15 It is even more obvious when another priest arises, resembling Melchizedek, {.Both KING and High Priest.}

16 one who has become a priest, not through a legal requirement concerning physical descent, but through the power of an indestructible life.

In the Old Covenant the carnal Levite appointed another carnal Levite. In the New Covenant we have one Perfect High Priest chosen because of His obedience to God.

17 For it is attested of him, "You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek." {.Both KING and High Priest.}

18 There is, on the one hand, the abrogation of an earlier commandment because it was weak and ineffectual

19 (for the law made nothing perfect);(What Law? Levitical Priesthood, yes) there is, on the other hand, the introduction of a better hope, through which we approach God.

Now we have a perfect mediator, not carnal man, to mediate between man and God. No more Levite Priests for atonement. This didn't work because mankind is wicked and Carnal and loves the Darkness as Jesus said.

20 This was confirmed with an oath; for others who became priests took their office without an oath,

21 but this one became a priest with an oath, because of the one who said to him, "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind,

'You are a priest forever'"—

22 accordingly Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.

No more Priests "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of Men". No more "hypoctites and liars" to corrupt God's Word. No more sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

This Perfect Priesthood is the New Covenant.

JESUS did not deliberately mention that we should keep the SABBATH LAW, because IT IS A SIGN OF THE FIRST COVENANT, and we HAVE a Better Covenant, the SECOND COVENANT. So what Change in the LAW did HE substitute it with

?

He already explained the "Change of the Law" in Hebrews 7. There is nothing mentioned about the 10 Commandments, His Holy days, nothing. According to the Messiah the New Covenant is the change in the Priesthood. You are adding ancient religious traditions where Jesus never did.

Hebrews 10:23-25 (NRSV)

23 Let us hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering {every day of the week}, for he who has promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, {Notice that Good Deeds are PART OF LOVE, not Salvation.}
25 not neglecting to meet together {no mention of a specific day}, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. {.The Day of Christ, when Michael calls us OUT to go to the WEDDING of the LAMB

It is you who believes and preaches that remembering the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy is not a Good Deed. Jesus said it was "made for you" and that it is Lawful to do Good on this day.

That, in my opinion, is the necessary Substitute for the Sabbath Law, mentioned in Heb. 7:12.

No one place in Hebrews 7=10 is the Word Sabbath even mentioned. These 4 chapters deal with the New covenant being the Change in the Priesthood. There is not one mention or discussion of any other Law that the Priesthood.

Please show me if you find differently.

I know you have been taught this VCO. But I beseech you to read my post, do the study yourself. The Mainstream Preaching regarding the New Covenant is a huge deception that is not supported by the Scriptures at all, not even a little.

Do the study then tell me how, using your Bible, that I have got this wrong.

 

[Studyman]

When did the First Covenant END, and when did the Second Covenant Start?

You never thought about that DID YOU?

It started no earlier than HIS RESURRECTION, and most will say AT THE DAY OF PENTECOST after His Resurrection.

Actually the New Covenant is the change in the Priesthood. If you would note, Jesus forgave sins for 3 years without ever once sprinkling a drop of blood or killing one goat.

Jer. 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

No more Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for atonement of sins. The New Covenant.

 

[gb9]

According to my Bible the Levitical Priesthood was given specifically to the Levites. No other "Tribe" could hold the position of "High Priest". This truth should also be in your Bible.

But Jesus was not a Levite, but from the tribe of Judah so He could not "lawfully" partake of the High Priest duties and enter the Holy of Holies. So what happened? How was He able to take over the Priesthood?

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Jesus could not lawfully become a High Priest of God unless the Law regarding who could ever the Holy of Holies was "changed".

No mention of the elimination of the Sabbath, or the altering of the definition of sin. Only that God changed the Law as to who could become the High Priest.

The Levite Priests had corrupted God's Priesthood, corrupted His Covenant. Like Jesus said;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


Jer. 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So God, as Prophesied, made another Covenant. "8 For finding fault with them," (Corrupt Levite Priests which killed Him and the Prophets)) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



In the Old Covenant the carnal Levite appointed another carnal Levite. In the New Covenant we have one Perfect High Priest chosen because of His obedience to God.



Now we have a perfect mediator, not carnal man, to mediate between man and God. No more Levite Priests for atonement. This didn't work because mankind is wicked and Carnal and loves the Darkness as Jesus said.

in the first few words of this latest piece of junk you call theology, you stated that Paul called the O.T. the Gospel of Christ .

that is a flat out lie.
what Paul said was- "..... the Gospel He promised beforehand through His Prophets in the Holy Scriptures...….

so, Paul said the Gospel came through the Prophets ion

According to my Bible the Levitical Priesthood was given specifically to the Levites. No other "Tribe" could hold the position of "High Priest". This truth should also be in your Bible.

But Jesus was not a Levite, but from the tribe of Judah so He could not "lawfully" partake of the High Priest duties and enter the Holy of Holies. So what happened? How was He able to take over the Priesthood?

12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Jesus could not lawfully become a High Priest of God unless the Law regarding who could ever the Holy of Holies was "changed".

No mention of the elimination of the Sabbath, or the altering of the definition of sin. Only that God changed the Law as to who could become the High Priest.

The Levite Priests had corrupted God's Priesthood, corrupted His Covenant. Like Jesus said;

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.


Jer. 5: 30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; 31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

So God, as Prophesied, made another Covenant. "8 For finding fault with them," (Corrupt Levite Priests which killed Him and the Prophets)) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



In the Old Covenant the carnal Levite appointed another carnal Levite. In the New Covenant we have one Perfect High Priest chosen because of His obedience to God.



Now we have a perfect mediator, not carnal man, to mediate between man and God. No more Levite Priests for atonement. This didn't work because mankind is wicked and Carnal and loves the Darkness as Jesus said.

way, way back, at the fist part of this fountain of mis-imformation, you lie, flat out lie, and say that Paul called the O.T. the Gospel of Christ.

what he actually said was the Gospel came through the Prophets that were in the O.T. ( Romans 1 v. 2,3 ).

so, you take that, twist it into Paul saying the O.T. was the Gospel, then you build all the other falsehoods on this.


but, this is what lies do- just build and build on each other.

but, since you deny the truth of Trinity, you have to twist and turn and lie to try to make the O.T. and N.T. the same, which they are not.

 

[Shamah]

When did the First Covenant END, and when did the Second Covenant Start?

You never thought about that DID YOU?

It started no earlier than HIS RESURRECTION, and most will say AT THE DAY OF PENTECOST after His Resurrection.

The moment the blood spilled out of His pierced side and the earthquaked, the chamber that the ark of the covenant was in, was exposed, blood had never touched the right hand side (west) of the ark, Yahshua;s blood did, the moment that blood touched, the Covenant was ratified. Now one could say it was coming into force and not fully until Yahshua took His place as High Priest in the holy of holies NOT made with hands. and historical proof also shows that after that Passover, Yahshua;s Sacrifice, the "Scarlett ribbon" never turned white again... I know most will post "is near to passing away" not fully understanding what ratifies a covenant, blood.

 

[Studyman]

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


Is the Church obligated to obey Exodus 31:15, under the New Covenant?



JPT

Ex. 31:.15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

I find men's hatred of this one commandment fascinating. No wonder the Word which became Flesh made it His Test Commandment.

I would say Paul believes we are obligated under the New covenant.

Rom. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

 

[Shamah]

I hear you. I believe Christ is my spiritual rest. In fact, when He repeats the 10 commandments. And increases our observance. "You have heard, but I say to you.." He leaves out the Sabbath. Because we enter into Him as our rest, but yeah I agree the Kingdom (physical one) that comes will give us physical rest. Like you said all of our pains and tears will be no more.

I believe Revelation is describing a physical Kingdom. But we are currently in His spiritual Kingdom.

yeah but He mentions the Sabbath in other parts of the gospels, that they are for doing righteousness... and to me rev 14:13 is clear.. "blessed are those who die in Messiah for they will rest..."

 

[Shamah]

Oh I see, sorry I would have continued on.

We rest from our labors of working in His name. At the time, being a Christian was serious persecution. We suffer a little bit, but not even close to the scale that the readers of the time did. Loving people who hated you could definitely be considered a "labor". I don't believe this is talking about a spiritual rest, but a physical rest. Because they die to receive it.

Remember when Paul says it is to my gain that I die, but your gain that I stay? He wanted to go to Jesus, he said he had kept of the fight of faith. He had run his race. He pressed forward to the upward call of Christ. He was talking about physical exertions. Traveling around the world, being persecuted, beaten, fighting off beasts, shipwrecked... you name it. Death for him was indeed a rest from his labors. And the good he did unto the Lord is still following him.

SO Paul was spiritualy resting while physically laboring and will be phsically resting when entering the kingdom of YHWH?

Can you point to a Scripture that says the rest in Messiah is now, while we are in the flesh and not after our bodies are dead as Rev 14:13 says?