OSAS= House Built on Sand

[LW97]

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

The overcomer has a guarantee, Jesus said "I will not blot out", not "I might not blot out".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They go to heaven if they are a born again believer. They go to hell if they are an unbeliever (not born again). Only God and not man can make that judgment.

That is my understanding as well.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When I say ungodly sights and sounds, I’m referring to secular music and television as well as anything on the internet that is unseemly.

k. I guess when I saw the word "people" included in the "ungodly sights and sounds" it appeared to me that you secluded yourself from people and it is unsaved people who are most in need of the love of God.

apologies for any misunderstanding on my part.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Do I believe in the common OSAS doctrine? That doctrine that teaches you could live like the devil and go to heaven without repentance? No, I don't

Amen.


That’s great.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Again, this refers to a false brother, see the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. Are you saying a Christian will instanly die spiritually at the moment he gets angry at his brother without a reason?

I’m fully aware of what the parable of the wheat and tares teaches.


This scripture does not say false brother.

You added that to God’s word.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


When we sin against our brother we are hating him.


This is the definition of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


again


For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10


This is what Christ taught us.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yet this doctrine is correct in sense that a true Christian will never turn back to his old life

Lol. That’s funny!


For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22



JPT

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

The overcomer has a guarantee, Jesus said "I will not blot out", not "I might not blot out".

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[mailmandan]

I’m fully aware of what the parable of the wheat and tares teaches.

This scripture does not say false brother.

You added that to God’s word.

The Bible does talk about false brethren.

2 Corinthians 11:26 - I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren.

Galatians 2:4 - But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

 

[mailmandan]

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[Seohce]

TO THE DOUBLE TALKERS

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE ĢRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALIYY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

 

[Seohce]

False Teachers and the Love of Money
These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatterand the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse,deceiving and being deceived.

. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.
"FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"

DON'T BE A WALKING DEAD,

 

[mailmandan]

"FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD"

DON'T BE A WALKING DEAD,

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead.

If someone says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!

UNBELIEVER = walking dead and without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many self righteous, religious works that unbelievers attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to be saved by works.

 

[Ralph-]

So you admit that God is the One who gives you faith to believe the Gospel...

I've been saying this all along. God gives the faith (the ability to know the gospel is true), so YOU can then believe it and be saved.

Look at your own words: "faith to believe". Say it again: "faith TO believe". One more time: "faith TO believe. God gives you the faith so YOU can then believe. He gives the ability to believe.....YOU do the believing. Many receive the faith to believe but reject it and choose not to believe. And some who believe later choose to reject what God has shown them to be true and they no longer believe. The Galatians did that. It's called 'choice'. You must choose to continue to believe the gospel in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.

, but you also believe it is YOUR ability to accept what you already believe!

No, GOD gives the ability to know the gospel really is true. I accept that truth into my heart and place my believing, my trust, in what I now know to be true and I am saved. And I will stay saved as long as I keep my trust in what God has shown me to be true.

WHERE does YOUR ability to accept the Gospel come from? Who gave you that ability?

God gives the ability to believe. I choose whether to then use that ability to believe and be saved.

Just knowing the gospel is true through God's supernatural gift of faith to know it is true isn't enough to be saved. You must then believe/trust in what you now know to be true in order to be saved. And you have to continue to believe/trust in what you now know to be true to remain saved.

 

[Ralph-]

Look at the verses below, and then try to tell me that a Christian can lose his salvation?


"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

...so keep being a sheep through continued faith and trust in Christ. Then these great promises will remain yours.

 

[Ralph-]

Look at the verses below, and then try to tell me that a Christian can lose his salvation?
[...]
Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The promise is sure. God will not fail to do this for those who trust in him. So stay in Christ and keep trusting him. Do that and he will keep his sure promise of glorification.


You can see that not believing in 'once saved always saved' does not nullify the passages you use to prove 'once saved always saved'. Your problem is you are only capable of seeing scripture from the 'once saved always saved' narrow point of view. I'm showing you that is not the only way possible to understand the scriptures you use to prove 'once saved always saved'.

 

[Slayer]

The promise is sure. God will not fail to do this for those who trust in him. So stay in Christ and keep trusting him. Do that and he will keep his sure promise of glorification.


You can see that not believing in 'once saved always saved' does not nullify the passages you use to prove 'once saved always saved'. Your problem is you are only capable of seeing scripture from the 'once saved always saved' narrow point of view. I'm showing you that is not the only way possible to understand the scriptures you use to prove 'once saved always saved'.

Sorry but I must disagree, I believe there is only one way to understand the scriptures which deal with OSAS. Most of the scriptures are very palin and they can't be understood any other way, unless someone deliberately twists them to make them say something else.

We live in the age of apostasy, where the love of many has grown cold and many are falling away from the Church. I see so many Churches closed down as I drive around my area, and I see many Mosques being erected and many Christians are becoming atheists. They say science has proved evolution is a fact and God doesn't exists.

I would venture to state that 90% of those Churches who identify as Christian Churches, are not preaching the Bible faithfully. They are using their fallen human reasoning and applying it to Holy Scripture, so they end up with a man made Gospel where man is at the center. He is the one who chooses to believe so he has faith in his faith, so they sell the Gospel as a consumer product. They preach that Jesus loves everyone just as they are, so they don't need to change anything. They say you can just add Jesus to your lifestyle.

I get the sense that many people here are relying on their own understanding to to decipher the Holy Scriptures, and people all have different understandings and standards so we end up with thousands of denominations and and everyone seems to have their own view of what the Scriptures are saying.

With all due respect, I must reject your opinion on what the bible teaches about OSAS. I will stick to what my pastor teaches us, He has been appointed by God to lead us sheep, we are followers and the elders are the leaders. What I have found here at CC is so many people running with their own narrow view of scripture and upholding their view as infallible. I see pride and arrogance exhibited, among supposed brethren, quite sad really.

 

[UnderGrace]

I'd have to differ with you on that point sister. Ephesians 2:8 tells us very specifically the faith God gives us to believe is a gift. Paul even tells us the reason it MUST be a gift. So that NO ONE can boast. If the faith is NOT given by God as a gift then that is how we get caught up in a works doctrine, because it by OUR ability to believe. Here is the verse:

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and THAT not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The "THAT" is the faith he just made mention of. Obviously no one can boast of their ability to receive Grace they received. Even the workers of Salvation understand that. Paul is specifically telling us that the faith we have to believe is a GIFT from GOD.
But some DO try and boast that the faith in which they believe is mustered up by their own ability.

We cannot boast because we cannot secure our own salvation, believing/faith is not a work and it the same for everyone no does less or more to receive the gift therefore there is no boasting.

I find it interesting that faith in the Catholic tradition faith is given/infused by God to the person, this concept permeates their doctrine.

From a Greek scholar who I think is unbiased.

A.T. Robertson states: And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

This verse in Ephesians makes it clear that it is the person who believed.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Also from notes although I do not have the citation,

Aside from the interpretive possibility of Ephesians 2:8, there seems scant biblical evidence that "faith" is a gift from God. When Paul holds up Abraham as an example of faith, he esteems Abraham’s personal and self generated faith. In another example where Jesus is conversing with Martha (John 11:25-27), Martha demonstrates a self generated belief of something that was true (Jesus as the Messiah).

Interestingly enough there is evidence Calvin did not consider faith the gift in Ephesians 2:8 although I have researched this so I cannot say with certainty.

Aside from this though, what Ralphie is stating that initial faith is a gift and then we have to maintain that gift of faith to be saved makes no sense.

 

[preston39]

........With all due respect, I must reject your opinion on what the bible teaches about OSAS. I will stick to what my pastor teaches us, He has been appointed by God to lead us sheep, we are followers and the elders are the leaders. ...........

S....,

Such a mistake.

We each are responsible for applying G-d's word in our individual life. No one else can be blamed.

A pastor, Church which teaches new age religion stuff...OSAS....baptism not necessary, etc.,....... which has evolved out of the 1960's social and moral revolution, should be avoided at all costs. They are great deceptions.

 

[UnderGrace]

S....,

Such a mistake.

We each are responsible for applying G-d's word in our individual life. No one else can be blamed.

A pastor, Church which teaches new age religion stuff...OSAS....baptism not necessary, etc.,....... which has evolved out of the 1960's social and moral revolution, should be avoided at all costs. They are great deceptions.

Oh so it wasn't Calvin after all???

 

[PennEd]

We cannot boast because we cannot secure our own salvation, believing/faith is not a work and it the same for everyone no does less or more to receive the gift therefore there is no boasting.

I find it interesting that faith in the Catholic tradition faith is given/infused by God to the person, this concept permeates their doctrine.

From a Greek scholar who I think is unbiased.

A.T. Robertson states: And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

This verse in Ephesians makes it clear that it is the person who believed.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Also from notes although I do not have the citation,

Aside from the interpretive possibility of Ephesians 2:8, there seems scant biblical evidence that "faith" is a gift from God. When Paul holds up Abraham as an example of faith, he esteems Abraham’s personal and self generated faith. In another example where Jesus is conversing with Martha (John 11:25-27), Martha demonstrates a self generated belief of something that was true (Jesus as the Messiah).

Interestingly enough there is evidence Calvin did not consider faith the gift in Ephesians 2:8 although I have researched this so I cannot say with certainty.

Aside from this though, what Ralphie is stating that initial faith is a gift and then we have to maintain that gift of faith to be saved makes no sense.

Well, I could care a less what John Calvin says one way or the other. Many of my beliefs on doctrine align with him, but some don't. Some of my beliefs align with Catholics, but most don't. A few of my beliefs align with Ralph, but many don't.

To be honest, I don't really care what a Greek scholar says either. I could probably find a Greek scholar for any rendering of any passage.

So think about the reluctance people have to attributing the gift of Faith God gives vs. THEM being the ones to muster the Faith. (WHERE DOES THAT FAITH COME FROM?!!!) When we get to the end of ourselves, in the final analysis, we understand that God ALONE saves us through Christ. It's probably the last hurdle of our flesh to want US to be the ones that chose Him, rather than Him choosing us.

The verse flat out says that the faith we have to believe is a gift from God. Paul is not expressing to us that men can boast about Grace. How is that even possible? Grace by it's very definition is UNEARNED merit and mercy. No. The boasting of men is about their FAITH. That's why it's so important to understand that the Faith is a gift, so you CAN'T boast. So NO ONE can boast that they chose Him.