OSAS= House Built on Sand

[stonesoffire]

Actually, I was thinking of this scripture:

"they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." - Luke 8:13

Believing a 'once saved always saved' doctrine is not how you prepare for the day of temptation when you may fall away into unbelief and cast the word of God from your heart. But more and more people are taking false comfort in that message. They are not ready for tough days to come. They have taken false comfort in a message that tells them it doesn't matter if they are ready or not.

The day of temptation? I thought scripture was speaking about hardships and trials of life. Jesus is speaking of losing your fire within. Don't lose your first love. We don't cast the word aside, may even be warring with the word against the onslaught of Satan, but then begin to look at the hardships and lose that burning love.

Enduring isn't what you think it is.

 

[stonesoffire]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


John is warning the Church about not walking in obedience to His commandments, which is walking in love.


If a brother hates his brother then he no longer has eternal life in Him.


The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.



JPT

The brother who hates has his heart exposed. Mercy and forgiveness is from the heart with eternal life. A brother may have to go through deliverance for his soul can be contaminated and then his spirit defiled. Or he could be an imposter. A plant from the devil called tares.

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm not against you Ralph. But, have gone through much since the days of bible-discussion, and my eyes have been opened to truth.

I'm hoping this cloud of doubt you portray is removed from above your head. So you can be truly free. The waters are great to swim in.

 

[justpassinthrough]

1 John 4:

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.



I figure if His commandments seem to be grievous, I have left Him and have gone back to my old habit patterns, or the "commandments" I am trying to keep are not His commandments.

His commandments define love.

It's all about love.


Loving God.

Loving God's children.

If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.​

1 John 4:20-21



If we murder our brother is that loving him or hating him?

If we commit adultery with our brothers wife is that loving him, or hating him?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



The way we love God, is by loving our brother.

• for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10​

• Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

The brother who hates has his heart exposed. Mercy and forgiveness is from the heart with eternal life. A brother may have to go through deliverance for his soul can be contaminated and then his spirit defiled. Or he could be an imposter. A plant from the devil called tares.

John is referring to two brothers in Christ in his example -


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Whoever is a reference to a brother in Christ.

His brother refers to his brother in Christ.


Only children of God are expected to love.


The world is already condemned.


John's example is about how one brother in Christ is to treat another brother in Christ; "his brother" demonstrates this truth.


Not his "false brother".


His brother.



But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21





JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

like most legalists, ralph correctly states that one has to maintain their belief and trust in Christ to be saved, but then, he keeps going and attaches works. that is how legalism disguises itself- starts off with sound theology, then ends up with " well, if you REALLY have the Spirt, then one will.. or won't...…. attaching good works to grace salvationism.

True, I realize now it is completely a form of legalism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, your mind, and your body are in addition to the innermost 'you' that has been transformed by the indwelling Holy Spirit. That is my understanding.

Right. We agree here.

This is the very reason one cannot "forfeit" salvation.

In a later post, you wrote:

You're deepest innermost man is 'different' now because the Holy Spirit is there in union with him.

"the Holy Spirit is there in union with him" (our spirit).

This is the only part of us that "cannot sin" (1Jn3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.)

Before the Spirit came to permanently indwell (and seal) believers (according to John 7:39's "for the Holy Ghost/Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" ), this [the above] would not be the case (neither could anyone believe/trust in His resurrection, for even John 20:9 states of "Simon Peter" and "that other disciple," "9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." and "the eleven," according to Mk16:14 were "upbraided" by Him: "upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.")

I want to write more (and probably will) but I'm afraid the timer's running out on my slow typing...


[war between flesh and spirit... et al; and "which is Christ in you, the [sure] hope of glory" Col1:25-27; and 1Cor15:1-4 as I've explained that]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Romans 8:2 -

"2 For the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

 

[justpassinthrough]

This is the very reason one cannot "forfeit" salvation.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Whoever is a reference to a brother in Christ.

His brother refers to his brother in Christ.


Only children of God are expected to love.


The Christian who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life in him.




JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

And yet you disagree with him that the person who falls away was never saved to begin with. You claim that the person who no longer believes is still saved. You are in very obvious and contradictory standing with traditional Calvinistic reformed theology regarding 'once saved always saved'.

And yet you disagree with him that the person who falls away was never saved to begin with

I do not use that statement I never speak about the person who has not been born again (unjustified) and I do not speculate on a person's salvation status from a snapshot of their behaviour.
If they were never justified (born again) they do not enter into the conversation at all, I only speak to the justified (born again) which scripture has clearly defined as an eternal status.

You claim that the person who no longer believes is still saved.

This statement is moot. Justification is eternal.

You want to frame the argument as 'no longer believes" because you think you have practical/observable evidence of your statement

in the visible church with regards to peoples' behaviour, which you have made the ultimate test of salvation, however you need to

point the finger at someone who is declared unjustified by God, because that is God's declaration on a person when you can give

me a name of someone whom God has decreed unjustified who was declared justified in the "ekklesia" then you have proven your point.

So I am expecting a memo from God on this and ask Him for specifics please I need to be able to verify......I will be waiting.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Whoever is a reference to a brother in Christ.

His brother refers to his brother in Christ.


Only children of God are expected to love.


The Christian who hates his brother, no longer has eternal life in him.

Every person is born with "mind/will/emotion" (that is a "soul") and a body. Whether that person ever is saved or not, everyone possesses this.

Only the believer (in "this present age" thus far) is in union with the Holy Spirit (that is, in our spirit--where He permanently indwells the believer). Our spirit was changed [enlivened, if you will] when we trusted Christ (faithed on Him and His finished work).
It is our spirit (joined with His Holy Spirit) which "cannot sin". Our "mind/will/emotion" (soul) is not perfect/sinless (still commits sins) and needs continual renewing, and becomes more and more conformed to the image of Christ throughout our lives (as believers/saints/those possessing His eternal LIFE) [only] as we gaze at "the glory of the Lord" in His now exalted position. [as "HEAD"]
Our bodies will not be transformed/translated/changed/perfected until the Rapture (2Cor5:3-4/1Cor15:51,52,53b and 1Th4:17), which is yet future.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As for the term "brother/brethren"... let's look at just one, first:

When Satan desired to have Simon, that he may "sift him as wheat," Jesus said He prayed for him... and then said, "and when thou art converted, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN". And what do we see pretty much first thing after Jesus' resurrection? Peter in Acts 3:17-19,22 saying, "now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers..." and "Repent ye therefore, and be converted..."

Stephen also used the word "brethren," in his Acts 7:2 defense [vv.51-53]

Paul as well, used the term "brethren," in his Acts 13:26-29,38 words [vv.39-41]

Romans 9:3 as well.

So the context needs to be understood as well.



On the other subject, "murderer" is an "identification"... one that can no longer be said of believers (see the "list" in 1Cor6:9-11, esp v.11 "but you were [aorist]" [one in the middle voice, two in the passive voice])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

... and speaking of Romans 9:3, this is a clear snapshot of Paul [by means of the Holy Spirit within him (per Romans 5:5 and 8:4)] "loving" his brethren:


9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost/Spirit,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from [G575 - apo] Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

His commandments define love.

It's all about love.

Jesus goes even further than this in Matt 5:22, justpassinthrough.

Jesus points to the inward heart issue which results in the outward act of murder. It is this issue which Jesus came to fix. Mankind does not have it within him/herself. We think if we follow the outward ordinances, we're good to go. But Jesus addresses the beginning of the issue which emanates from the heart and ends in murder. The law deals with the end of the act without addressing the internal "heart" issue.

And the love John writes about in his epistles is the love which emanates from the new heart God gives to the born again believer.

As I stated in post #1,516, if we find the commandment to love to be grievous, it's because we are not living in light of that new heart given to us by God at the time of the new birth ... we've fallen back into our old habit patterns if/when we can't love.

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:9-10

All of the behaviors shown in vss 9 – 10 are behaviors of the natural man (or carnal Christian who has fallen back into his/her old habits). Keep reading through to the end of the chapter:

Romans 13:

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Our old fleshly nature does not have it within itself to overcome the lusts of the flesh. That is why God gave us a new heart ... so we can have victory over the flesh. The only way I know of to make not provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof is to put on the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the new man we read about.

 

[Chester]

I do not use that statement I never speak about the person who has not been born again (unjustified) and I do not speculate on a person's salvation status from a snapshot of their behaviour.
If they were never justified (born again) they do not enter into the conversation at all, I only speak to the justified (born again) which scripture has clearly defined as an eternal status.



This statement is moot. Justification is eternal.

You want to frame the argument as 'no longer believes" because you think you have practical/observable evidence of your statement

in the visible church with regards to peoples' behaviour, which you have made the ultimate test of salvation, however you need to

point the finger at someone who is declared unjustified by God, because that is God's declaration on a person when you can give

me a name of someone whom God has decreed unjustified who was declared justified in the "ekklesia" then you have proven your point.

So I am expecting a memo from God on this and ask Him for specifics please I need to be able to verify......I will be waiting.

The fallacy of your argument is your foundation: that justification is eternal, that being born again has eternal status.

Now we often use words in different ways, but here is what I think you are saying (please correct me if I am wrong in what you believe): You believe that once a person is born again (justified) that they now have the eternal status of a believer and that can or will be changed: and thus this person will always be saved and is guaranteed to get to heaven.

The problem is that no Scripture clearly says what you claim: that justification is eternal.

 

[Chester]

Mistake in post #1535

"that they now have the eternal status of a believer and that can or will be changed"

should read: "that they now have the eternal status of a believer and that cannot nor ever will be changed"


Otherwise what I was trying to say makes no sense! (Of course some might think it doesn't make any sense anyway . . . lol!)

 

[justpassinthrough]

Every person is born with "mind/will/emotion" (that is a "soul") and a body. Whether that person ever is saved or not, everyone possesses this.

Only the believer (in "this present age" thus far) is in union with the Holy Spirit (that is, in our spirit--where He permanently indwells the believer). Our spirit was changed [enlivened, if you will] when we trusted Christ (faithed on Him and His finished work).
It is our spirit (joined with His Holy Spirit) which "cannot sin". Our "mind/will/emotion" (soul) is not perfect/sinless (still commits sins) and needs continual renewing, and becomes more and more conformed to the image of Christ throughout our lives (as believers/saints/those possessing His eternal LIFE) [only] as we gaze at "the glory of the Lord" in His now exalted position. [as "HEAD"]
Our bodies will not be transformed/translated/changed/perfected until the Rapture (2Cor5:3-4/1Cor15:51,52,53b and 1Th4:17), which is yet future.

Do you believe John is teaching us the truth here?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


"His brother" refers to another Christian.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Jesus goes even further than this in Matt 5:22, justpassinthrough.

Jesus points to the inward heart issue which results in the outward act of murder. It is this issue which Jesus came to fix. Mankind does not have it within him/herself. We think if we follow the outward ordinances, we're good to go. But Jesus addresses the beginning of the issue which emanates from the heart and ends in murder. The law deals with the end of the act without addressing the internal "heart" issue.

And the love John writes about in his epistles is the love which emanates from the new heart God gives to the born again believer.

As I stated in post #1,516, if we find the commandment to love to be grievous, it's because we are not living in light of that new heart given to us by God at the time of the new birth ... we've fallen back into our old habit patterns if/when we can't love.

Plainly if we have fallen back into our old habit patterns of sin, and are not loving our brother, we no longer have eternal life in us, any longer.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


His commandments are about loving God by loving His people.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5



If we steal from our brother, is that love or hate?

If we covet our brothers things, is that love or hate?

If we commit adultery with our brother wife, is that love or hate?


20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20



2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2

• For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

JPT

 

[mailmandan]

Do you believe John is teaching us the truth here?

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

"His brother" refers to another Christian.

JPT

How about a little context. 1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. *Cain hated and killed his brother. Are you going to tell me that Cain was a Christian?

 

[UnderGrace]

The fallacy of your argument is your foundation: that justification is eternal, that being born again has eternal status.

Now we often use words in different ways, but here is what I think you are saying (please correct me if I am wrong in what you believe): You believe that once a person is born again (justified) that they now have the eternal status of a believer and that can or will be changed: and thus this person will always be saved and is guaranteed to get to heaven.

The problem is that no Scripture clearly says what you claim: that justification is eternal.

There is no problem/fallacy......... justification by definition is eternal because of who God is not because of who we are.

We did not do anything to earn our justification, therefore we cannot do anything to un-earn it. God is the One who justifies us.

To declare that justification can be lost, taken away, or even unfinished, is to un-do the work that God has done which is impossible.

Justification is a sovereign work of God.

As well, Justification is a judicial term. The born from above person (possessing eternal life) has had his/her debt of sin paid in full by Christ Jesus, God declares the person innocent. The person cannot be found guilty again once the debt is paid in full.

Those that put forth that God overturns His declaration is introducing lies about the very nature of God from a righteous judge to a vacillating, untrustworthy, ignoble judge.

I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28