Stumbling over Christ

Latour · Aug 10, 2018

1 Peter 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Many people will stumble over Jesus Christ because of who He is and what He says. This is due to the flesh. The flesh is at war with the Spirit and the Spirit at war with the flesh. This fact is what is the main dividing line in the church in modern times. the slogan "all are welcom" has brought in an untold number of people who profess to know Christ but deny Him in word and deed.

In times past such people would remain outside the church. So the battle was without.

But today the battle has entered into the church since it is filled with "unbelievers" who claim to be saved by what they term "faith." But they stumble over Christ.

How?

If we claim to love Jesus then we should obey Him. Notice this...

John 14 :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

In the above verse in Peter...believing Jesus means obeying Jesus. Disobedience is unbelief. If we say we believe God and then proceed to disobey Him then our belief is in our own minds. So then a lot of modern "Christians" are actually functional unbelievers.

Now watch who likes and dislikes this post. You will see how the word of God divides by whether we stumble over Christ or not.

Latour · Aug 10, 2018

Is. 8:4 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Both houses of Israel. We who are of the rebirth by the Spirit are one house...the house of Joseph (which means increase) called Ephraim.

Now the Jews stumbled at Jesus being God...divine....from heaven. So they stumble at His divinity. But we Gentiles have no problem (usually) with that. That's because we didn't know Him in the flesh.

But we Gentiles stumble at the humanity of Jesus. We think He didn't sin and did what He did because He was God. But in so doing we deny the humanity of Jesus. We seem unable to put one and one together to get two. So we are just as much unbelief as the Jews who stumble at the divinity of Jesus.

So we are all stumbling over the truth...that Jesus is fully God AND fully man. Both houses of Israel.

beta · Aug 10, 2018

Latour said:

Is. 8:4 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Both houses of Israel. We who are of the rebirth by the Spirit are one house...the house of Joseph (which means increase) called Ephraim.

Now the Jews stumbled at Jesus being God...divine....from heaven. So they stumble at His divinity. But we Gentiles have no problem (usually) with that. That's because we didn't know Him in the flesh.

But we Gentiles stumble at the humanity of Jesus. We think He didn't sin and did what He did because He was God. But in so doing we deny the humanity of Jesus. We seem unable to put one and one together to get two. So we are just as much unbelief as the Jews who stumble at the divinity of Jesus.

So we are all stumbling over the truth...that Jesus is fully God AND fully man. Both houses of Israel.

I don't wish to DE-rail your post which is very interesting...and I was only thinking about this morning. But my take on the reason for 'stumbling is somewhat different from yours, so I will not proceed with my view as it inevitable leads to hate and disagreement with other posters.
Good luck !

Latour · Aug 10, 2018

beta said:

Please do share your view. Not for the sake of hatred from others but in spite of it.

The thread is about stumbling over who Jesus really is.

beta · Aug 10, 2018

Latour said:

For me it's really very simple. When I read Yashua/Jesus saying ''I never knew you'' that is just what it means But why would He say that to those who call Him ''Lord, Lord ?.....because these people are not directing their worship to HIM who is Lord of the Sabbath who died for them - but to an imposter from Rome who was sneaked into christianity by the RCC thus following a false christ !
However, when it comes to the final Judgement the REAL Jesus/Yashua will sit on the throne and it is evident from what He says that He never knew them
We have been warned of many false christs leading many people astray Mat 24, and following the 'sunday-resurrected jesus is that deception preached by all/most christian denominations.
There has been a faithful Servant of God (LGF) who sounded that warning and was 'banned for his effort....that is how they treat those who try to help them. Yes, they are stumbling at that stumbling stone but it will grind them to powder if they don't hear and repent and continue to remain ''estranged from their TRUE SAVIOUR !!!

Nehemiah6 · Aug 10, 2018

Latour said:

That's a given. So which Christian do you think would oppose this or deny it?

Or are you simply setting up a straw man, like Beta. Sabbath obsession is not obedience to Christ but in fact disobedience. The Lord of the Sabbath has given Christians "the Lord's Day".

Latour · Aug 10, 2018

Jesus came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. It would seem logical to become familiar with "kingdom logic" so as to better understand the terms of our own judgment. This may well be the topic of another thread. I find that there are few if any that are conversant about kingdom principles. Most people are concerned with salvation...or an entry into the kingdom through the Door which is Christ. But what of God's requirements? What is God looking for in us?

The easy answer is faith. But there is more to this than many think.

Jesus is both great AND humble. That is something that we, as humans, have great difficulty with.

Jesus also said...I came not to judge the world. Yet we are so often in the seat of judges. God had mercy on us....but we have difficulty accepting a God who justifies the ungodly...when it isn't us.

If we judge not others then we wouldn't be judged ourselves. If we have been forgiven by God...who are we to hold others accountable (I'm speaking of those who are not believers). God will have mercy on whom He wills. We are not involved in this at all....even if we wish to have opinions on the matter...or if we think that somehow being a Christian means we can judge the world. Jesus did NOT come to do that. Why should we attempt what Jesus refuses to do? Our role is to be a light, an example to the world...without judgment.

Latour · Aug 10, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Love is not a strawman. Love is commanded by God. If we don't love then we stumble over Jesus Christ who came to Earth because of love.

LPT · Aug 10, 2018

We'll I guess a good motto could be this...

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

7seasrekeyed · Aug 10, 2018

beta said:

who is LGF?

we are not supposed to be talking about why someone is banned

I doubt very much he or she was banned because they shared your views

if that were so, you would also be banned

pretty sad post wherein you affirm your denial of salvation through faith and add works to the gospel yet again

there is no hate in pointing out what is true here, so be wise and don't continue with your bemoaning a banned member

the mods have warned against it numerous times

not one single person is going to be ground to powder because they do not follow your Sabbatarian beliefs

I'm thinking that insulting others, calling names ad nauseum and telling people they are not saved is what might get a person banned

posthuman · Aug 10, 2018

having ones doctrine opposed in a Christian forum does not quite qualify as 'the world will hate you because it first hated Christ' in my view. patting one's self on the back for 'not being mainstream' among a microcosm of the minority of people in the world who profess faith in Christ and are actively engaged in looking for Him in scripture, seeking out other believers and talking about Him 7 days a week with a heightened measure of Biblical literacy is not in any way proof or even corroborating evidence that one is not one of the 'many' who are lost. this place is the place of the few. the population of CC members who actively talk about Christian doctrine is an extremely biased statistical sample. it's not representative either of the church as an whole or much less of the world in general.
total pagan idolaters who wind up here are opposed in their doctrines -- does that prove they are 'on the narrow path' since the majority of the minority reject their message? of course not.
the people who call themselves special is the mainstream: this is vanity.

pottersclay · Aug 10, 2018

To tell you the truth.....(..please don't tell anyone else) I stumble over Jesus everyday.
I can't seem to be able to walk in the spirit 24/7.
I feel like such a Peter at times.
It's not something I'm proud of or take lightly

Nehemiah6 · Aug 10, 2018

Latour said:

Did I say anything different? I said that obedience is a GIVEN. So by suggesting that Christians oppose this is setting up a straw man.

mailmandan · Aug 11, 2018

1 Peter 2:1 - Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious. 4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and “A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

p_rehbein · Aug 11, 2018

Obedience to Christ/God is not optional. Folks here know my thoughts concerning that.

As well, faith in Christ/God is required to walk in obedience to Him. Unbelievers can never walk in obedience, for they are still enslaved in the chains of sin. Faith is required.....and (in my opinion) the Law of the New Covenant is the Law of Faith as spoken of by the Apostle Paul.

Romans 3:22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Embankment · Aug 11, 2018

Latour said:

1 Peter 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Many people will stumble over Jesus Christ because of who He is and what He says. This is due to the flesh. The flesh is at war with the Spirit and the Spirit at war with the flesh. This fact is what is the main dividing line in the church in modern times. the slogan "all are welcom" has brought in an untold number of people who profess to know Christ but deny Him in word and deed.

In times past such people would remain outside the church. So the battle was without.

But today the battle has entered into the church since it is filled with "unbelievers" who claim to be saved by what they term "faith." But they stumble over Christ.

How?

If we claim to love Jesus then we should obey Him. Notice this...

John 14 :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

In the above verse in Peter...believing Jesus means obeying Jesus. Disobedience is unbelief. If we say we believe God and then proceed to disobey Him then our belief is in our own minds. So then a lot of modern "Christians" are actually functional unbelievers.

Now watch who likes and dislikes this post. You will see how the word of God divides by whether we stumble over Christ or not.

Stumbling over the stone of Jesus Christ is not mesuered by how well we obey him. The Jewish nation at that time refused Jesus all together. Today we have the same problem, people do not except Jesus’ grace and continue to treat his death as a non event. They continue to live under the OT laws.

posthuman · Aug 11, 2018

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law of righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;

and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.”

(Romans 9:30-33)

garee · Aug 11, 2018

I think the stumbling stone represents those who walk by sight, requiring a sign before they beleive, therefore stumbling over the things God reveals in his parables represented by the cross. But not the literal cross itself. Stumbling over the invisible things of God (no faith)

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corintians 1:22-23

They made Jesus into a circus seal ..(.perform your magic then we will believe)

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus confirmed their unbelief (no faith)

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

To them its.... out of sight out of mind, or seeing is believing. The I am from Missouri Called the "Show-Me" State.

Like the Pharisees with Sadducees two sects that put aside there differences and came as one who kill men and woman according to the misperceived competition(a false zeal for knowing our Father in heaven as a law of the father the oral tradition of men . They are given letters of approval as oral tradition of men as that which does make the word of God without effect

Satan is a murderer from the beginning in that way .

Paul as Saul before his conversion. Again walking by sight and not by faith. Faith is the free gift he did receive.

Note …..(purple in parenthesis) my added comments as personal opinions

(And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers (things of men) , and was zealous (falsely)toward God, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way (Christians) unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters (of approval as a oral tradition) unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.Acts 22:2-4

jesus informed those kind of father as a law of men..

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

posthuman · Aug 11, 2018

Latour said:

the 'stumbling stone' prophecy comes from Isaiah chapter 28.

Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim,

and the fading flower of its glorious beauty,

which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine!
(Isaiah 28:1)

the house of Ephraim stumbles:

These also reel with wine

and stagger with strong drink;

the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,

they are swallowed by wine,

they stagger with strong drink,

they reel in vision,

they stumble in giving judgment.

For all tables are full of filthy vomit,

with no space left.
(Isaiah 28:7-8)

as drunk, and proud, stumbling specifically in judgement.
next mention of stumbling here:

For by people of strange lips

and with a foreign tongue

the LORD will speak to this people,

to whom he has said,

“This is rest;

give rest to the weary;

and this is repose”;

yet they would not hear.

And the word of the LORD will be to them

precept upon precept, precept upon precept,

line upon line, line upon line,

here a little, there a little,

that they may go, and fall backward,

and be broken, and snared, and taken.

(Isaiah 28:11-13)

because He showed them His rest, and they would not, and they would not give it to the weary, the word to them is precept upon precept, in order that they stumble and fall backward. line upon line is to Ephraim's destruction.

Ephraim makes a lie their refuge ((what lie?)):

You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,

with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.

When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,

it cannot touch us,

for we have made a lie our refuge

and falsehood our hiding place."

(Isaiah 28:15)

therefore God lays the foundation stone, and makes righteousness and justice the measure:

So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,

a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;

the one who relies on it

will never be stricken with panic.

I will make justice the measuring line

and righteousness the plumb line;

hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,

and water will overflow your hiding place.

(Isaiah 28:16-17)

causing them to stumble, day after day, being beaten down:

Your covenant with death will be annulled;

your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.

When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,

you will be beaten down by it.

As often as it comes it will carry you away;

morning after morning, by day and by night,

it will sweep through.

(Isaiah 28:18-19)

i am thinking, wow, is it good to be called Ephraim, in light of this?
what is this refuge Ephraim makes for itself?
"the lie" ?
a covenant with death, a treaty with the grave?

Studyman · Aug 11, 2018

posthuman said:

It's important to note that historically speaking, it was religious man that Jesus and His Prophets exposed that hated Him and set about to discredit, then kill Him.

I don't believe Jesus was "patting himself on the back" when He exposed the Mainstream Preachers of His time as teaching for doctrines the Commandments of Men and "transgressing God's Commandments by their own religious Traditions".

For some reason He thought it was important to warn me about those who "Honor Him with their Lips" but in works they deny Him. And it wasn't man who said to beware of a religion which is broad and that "many" go in thereby it was Jesus, both as the Word and as the Man.

The arguments on this Bible Discussion forum are as old as man itself. From the serpent who worked to convince Eve that God's instructions were "against her", then Cain who hated His Brother because Able "believed" but Cain didn't, to Caleb who was truly walking the "Narrow Path" and was nearly stoned to death by his church brothers for simply "Believing" what God instructed and putting this belief into action.

These disputes are repeated over and over and over again among those who call Jesus "Lord, Lord.

It is also prudent to mention that the scriptures don't warn about satan disguising itself as a "Pagan idolater", to deceive folks into disobeying God, rather, a minister of righteousness and an apostle of Christ.

I do agree with your last sentence.

There are billions of people who have been convinced they are special, already immortal, "saved" and are free from the instructions of the God of the Bible.

Just as the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time who believed they were "special" "Children of Abraham" and were convinced they didn't need repentance.

Truly the Wisdom of the Word which became Flesh is beyond human comprehension. "There is nothing new under the sun".

Stumbling over Christ

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