OSAS= House Built on Sand

reneweddaybyday · Aug 9, 2018

My understanding is that before we're born again, we are under the dominion of the prince of the power of the air … the god of this world (i.e. satan) ... doesn't mean we're his children, but we sure are influenced by him.

Once we confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your hear that God has raised Him from the dead we are no longer under the dominion of satan.

We now belong to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and He is the One who shelters us because we belong to Him.

Satan does not give up his hold easily, though, and if he can get us to think we are still under his dominion, he will do exactly that. he uses every weapon in his arsenal to try to get us to falter. I think it's really interesting that God gives us all this armor to put on (Eph 6) and then tells us to watch, stand, withstand, resist, pray. We have to get to the point where we understand God is more than capable of handling satan. He sure doesn't need us to do anything other than watch, stand, withstand, resist, pray. Let Him fight that old servant, the devil. Keep our eyes fixed on what God tells us to fix our eyes on and don't buy into the lies of the adversary.

Ephesians 6:19 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

reneweddaybyday · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Look at the text:

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them ...

Luke 15:6 Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost

The parable states the sheep belonged to the one who searched for it. My sheep.

Who did the sheep belong to?

What is the significance of the sheep belonging to the shepherd?

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 9, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I was referring specifically to the wider context of the passage/verse under discussion (in that post / those posts), which wider context is found in 1 Corinthians 15:12-17, and more specifically verses 13 and 17 (showing what verse 2b refers to, in its context). So I disagree with your assessment.

[referring specifically to my post #976 in response to Ralph's post #966]

gb9 · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

this is what a command keeping for salvation theology does- it makes a person focusing on the wrong issue:

the sheep still belonged to the Shepherd ,it was still His. it did not stop being His sheep because it got lost. it did not reject it's Shepherd as his leader, and go his own way. which would have meant he did not really consider the Shepherd as his leader in the first place.

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

reneweddaybyday said:

The 100 sheep belonged to the man.

1 of his sheep wandered away and became lost.

Was the list sheep saved or unsaved?

JPT

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

gb9 said:

No the sheep did not belong to the shepherd while it was lost.

It wasn’t until the sheep was “found” that it belonged to the shepherd again.

Can the shepherd sell the sheep that is lost?

Can the shepherd sheer the sheep that is lost?

Can the shepherd eat the sheep that is lost?

What can the shepherd do with a sheep that is lost?

Nothing, except search for it in hopes of finding it before it is devoured?

The question remains unanswered.

Is a sheep that wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved?

Just or unjust?

Sinner or saint?

JPT

notuptome · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Show me one place in scripture where sheep refers to an unsaved person. Goats are unsaved persons not sheep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The sheep doesn't know it but he cannot hide from the Good Shepherd. The sheep may become separated from the flock requiring the Shepherd to go and recover him but the sheep is always a sheep and under the watchful eye of the Shepherd.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PennEd · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The Shepherd is the Lord.

The Shepherd says it's one of HIS sheep that are lost.
The Shepherd says He is going to look for the lost sheep UNTIL He finds him.

The Lord is not impotent. He is eminently competent. He WILL find HIS lost sheep.

The lost sheep IS saved!

mailmandan · Aug 9, 2018

Matthew 10:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

gb9 · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

so, if someone was to have asked the Shepherd how many sheep he has , he would have said " 99", instead of " 100, but one of them is lost, and I am going to go and search for it"??

this is leagalism folks. in their minds, when the Shepherd found the sheep, he would have made the sheep run up and down a mountain side 50 times for wondering off, and said that if he ever gets lost again, he will be thrown off a cliff. this is there warped view of grace.

the Good Shepherd rejoices and carries the sheep back to the flock. joy for finding a lost one, not seething anger at the wayward sheep.

notuptome · Aug 9, 2018

PennEd said:

This reminds me of what happened with one of my children. My son was given to sneaking off when we would go shopping in like a department store in the mall. He would hide in the racks or down an aisle out of sight. This caused a good bit of concern for his mother. Fearing she lost her baby. I told her to stop fretting and allow him to feel that he is lost. He looked for us and could not find us and he became terrified. See dad could sneak around too and I knew where he was but he did not know where I was. Scared himself right good and stuck close by our side after that point. Now it was in a day when you did not need to be concerned about child abductions like today but it was a good object lesson.

Sometimes we need to get a healthy fear of being separated from our Lord. We are never lost but we can really appreciate that special fellowship we have with Christ when He allows us to see what it is like apart from Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Jewel5712 · Aug 9, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Did you read ALL my post or just pick n choose?

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

notuptome said:

Right here in Luke 15 -

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.

James says it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
and someone turns him back
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save a soul from death

Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.

For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.

JPT

Ralph- · Aug 9, 2018

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, the passage plainly tells us that "unless you believed in vain" means 'unless Christ has not really risen from the dead'. That only makes them not really saved if Christ has not risen from the dead.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

1 Corinthians 15:1-2,14,17

And that doesn't change the fact that Paul said you are saved if you are presently believing. If Christ has not risen from the dead that simply makes the necessity for continued believing to be saved a meaningless truth.

Ralph- · Aug 9, 2018

Jewel5712 said:

You did say you believe that even if you stop believing you are still saved.

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

Jewel5712 said:

I read your answer to my question.

You answered saved, to this question -

Is a sheep that wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved?

Those who promote OSAS must deceitfully "redefine" biblical words.

You claim a lost sheep is saved.

In your mind, lost = saved.

You have exchanged the truth for a lie.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

PennEd said:

The Lord is seated at the right hand of God, today, and uses His people to preach the Gospel and heal the sick, and cast out devils, doing the work He commissioned them to do.

Jesus is instructing His people what to do, if a brother or sister in Christ, wanders away and becomes lost.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them
Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!

Jesus uses the parable of the lost sheep to describe a reality among His people.

Jesus explains the parable of the sheep and correlates it to actual people in verse 7.

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.

Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:12-17

If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.

Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:

“Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

James says it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
and someone turns him back
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save a soul from death

Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.

Is a born again Christian who wanders away and becomes lost, saved or unsaved?

JPT

TheDivineWatermark · Aug 9, 2018

No, Ralph. Verse 2 is saying "if you [Definition: (a) I hold fast, bind, arrest, (b) I take possession of, lay hold of, (c) I hold back, detain, restrain, (d) I hold a ship, keep its head] what *I* [PAUL] proclaimed to you [PAUL proclaimed to them HIS [Jesus'] RESURRECTION (along with the truths of His death and burial)]..."

[Acts 23:6 "6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." ... still looking for the other Acts verse I'm thinking of, more pertinent (re: Jesus' resurrection and Paul)... I'm sure time-limit will run out...

]

justpassinthrough · Aug 9, 2018

gb9 said:

It's Biblical Truth, that totally and completely shows that OSAS is a doctrine of demons from hell.

It's up to us, to do the work of bringing the lost back to repentance.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:12-17

If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.

Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:

“Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

James says it this way -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

James 5:19-20

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
and someone turns him back
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save a soul from death

Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.

Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.

Jesus is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of God.

He has finished the work that the Father sent Him to do. LOL!!!

Who said anything about seething anger? LOL

JPT

OSAS= House Built on Sand

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