Rapture

[Noose]

In a sense, I hope your right because nobody in their right mind wants to meet "THE" antichrist.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The antichrist has been here for the last 2000 years. He is not flesh and blood but a principality/power, a spirit indwelling the hearts/minds of men which is supposed to be the temple of God. He puts lies through his unwilling accomplices pastors and their churches (Shepherds) to men, giving them the wrong idea of God. True worship is the knowledge of God, having the wrong idea of God is worship of satan/antichrist.
Men have been worshiping antichrist for the last 2000 years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

At Matthew 24:40 or even vs41 the question was rasied by someone about what this verse means? "Then there shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left." Do you use these verses as support for the so-called rapture?

I know you're asking Ahwatukee this question, but (as a pre-tribber myself) NO, I do not use this passage as a reference to the Rapture, as that is not its CONTEXT (the context is the time period FOLLOWING our Rapture... the time leading UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH... FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom upon His "RETURN" to the earth).

Perhaps I already addressed that with you, I don't recall.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

nobody in their right mind wants to meet "THE" antichrist.

I agree with you in this, that there will indeed be [a singular] "THE antichrist".

Here's at least two references to "THE [antichrist]" (in contrast to the "many" that presently exist):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_john/2-22.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/2_john/1-7.htm

 

[Nehemiah6]

The antichrist has been here for the last 2000 years. He is not flesh and blood but a principality/power, a spirit indwelling the hearts/minds of men which is supposed to be the temple of God.

You are confusing THE SPIRIT (attitude and beliefs) of antichrist with THE PERSON of the Antichrist (an evil and blasphemous man) who will actually sit in the temple of God at Jerusalem, claiming that he is God and Christ.

It does no one any good to sow spiritual confusion. Today the spirit of antichrist is displayed by those who reject the deity of Christ (that He is God) and the truth about the Holy Trinity. There are many on this and other forums who have the spirit of antichrist.

 

[DudleyDorite]

The antichrist has been here for the last 2000 years. He is not flesh and blood but a principality/power, a spirit indwelling the hearts/minds of men which is supposed to be the temple of God. He puts lies through his unwilling accomplices pastors and their churches (Shepherds) to men, giving them the wrong idea of God. True worship is the knowledge of God, having the wrong idea of God is worship of satan/antichrist.
Men have been worshiping antichrist for the last 2000 years.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (Singular) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

There are several verses where a personal pronoun is used to label the anti-Christ. Like several other translations, the KJV omits the word "THE" in 1 John 2:18. Other translations have the word "THE" in it which is the correct translation, and some also capitalize the singular word ANTI-CHRIST. Take a look.

1 John 2

NIV
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

To say the anti-Christ has been here for 2,000 years is misleading. It would be more accurate saying the "spirit" of anti-Christ has been here for 2,000 years. The man of sin is an end-time figure.

 

[DudleyDorite]

You are confusing THE SPIRIT (attitude and beliefs) of antichrist with THE PERSON of the Antichrist (an evil and blasphemous man) who will actually sit in the temple of God at Jerusalem, claiming that he is God and Christ.

It does no one any good to sow spiritual confusion. Today the spirit of antichrist is displayed by those who reject the deity of Christ (that He is God) and the truth about the Holy Trinity. There are many on this and other forums who have the spirit of antichrist.

It's a terrible witness to Christ to say those of us who reject the trinity are anti-Christ. 1 John makes no assertion of the Trinity. I'm non trinitarian and reject the trinitarian formula. That is NOT the spirit of anti-Christ. this is what John says...

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Jesus being the Christ means denying he is the anointed one. It means to accept his life, death, and resurrection, and that he was sent by the Father.

The trinity is the most divisive doctrine that has ever entered the church. There was no such thing as a trinity until the pagan Constantine and the Catholic's devised it in the 3-4th century. It's beyond me why trinitarians are quick to condemn those of us who reject the trinity, yet they tell us it's undecipherable and incomprehensible. How can people condemn their own brothers and sisters over a doctrine that can't be explained or figured out, and cannot be understood? I say people who condemn non-trinitarian's do so because by condemning and tearing down others they build themselves up.

 

[DudleyDorite]

Well, the fact of the matter is that you are quite mistaken.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.... Even so then at this present time also there is a [Jewish] remnant according to the election* of grace... As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election*, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom 11:1,5,28)

* Strong's Concordance
eklogé: a (divine) selection
Original Word: ἐκλογή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).

That's not the word, "EKLECTOS"! And did you notice, the word itself makes no reference to it only implying Jews! The context does. but that doesn't matter, it's a completely different word that's used only 7 times, and three of those times it implies CHRISTIANS.

You are welcome to show me where the word EKLEKTOS refers to Jews. EKLEKTOS...the word used in Mathew 24:31 is used 23 times and in about 20 of them it clearly implies CHRISTIANS! Take a look at the verses below where the word EKLEKTOS is used.

• Matthew 20:16
• John 13:18, 15:16
• Acts 15:22, 15:25
• Romans 8:33, 16:13
• 1 Corinthians 1:27-28
• Ephesians 1:4
• Colossians 3:12
• James 2:5
• 2 Timothy 2:10
• Titus 1:1
• 1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
• Revelation 17:14

 

[bluto]

I know you're asking Ahwatukee this question, but (as a pre-tribber myself) NO, I do not use this passage as a reference to the Rapture, as that is not its CONTEXT (the context is the time period FOLLOWING our Rapture... the time leading UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH... FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom upon His "RETURN" to the earth).

Perhaps I already addressed that with you, I don't recall.

No I don't mind, remember these are open forums. Now, since you don't use these verses to support the rapture, what verses do you use, enlighten me. Btw, did you read all that I posted? Can you show me where the rapture might be in the verses I posted? And did Jesus Christ Himself mention anything about the rapture in the four Gospels?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

That's right, I said no "rapture," I did not say no second coming. Are you familar with Hebrews 9:28? "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, TO THOSE WHO EARGERLY AWAIT HIM."

So, can you please explain to me is this speaking about a rapture or a one and only second coming?

The problem is that you are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two individual events, which is what they are. The scripture above that you posted is regarding the gathering of the church, not the second coming. By interpreting the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which collectively make up the wrath of God. You would also be hard-pressed to explain how the bride is already in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And also how the bride/church could be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen. - Rev.19:6-8, 14

Also look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." I believe the "wrath" here is in reference to rejecting Jesus Christ. I base that on the fact that the context has to do with rejecting Jesus Christ for salvation. Just read 1Thess chapter 2 and notice what vs16 says, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED; with the result that they always fill up the measure OF THEIR SINS. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."

To wait for His Son from heaven, is regarding His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 to gather His church, not when He returns to end the age. The wrath that Jesus rescues us from, is the wrath that will be carried out during that last seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. He removes His church prior to that time of wrath and takes us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us as promised in John 14:1-3.

You can also cross reference this with Ephesians 2:3, and especially the favorite verse of pre-tribbers 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 3:5,6 and another good verse is Romans 5:9. Context, context ahwatukee.

Sir, I am well aware of staying within context as that is how I have always studied God's word. I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and all of those scriptures above, are referring to the wrath that is coming upon the earth. Believers are not appointed to suffer that coming wrath, Jesus rescues us from that coming wrath and the Lord said that He would keep us out of that time of wrath. Since we are talking about the same time of wrath, it can't be taken out of context, because it is referring to the same coming wrath which will take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.

I also have a question to ask you. At Matthew 24:40 or even vs41 the question was rasied by someone about what this verse means? "Then there shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left." Do you use these verses as support for the so-called rapture?

The scripture above is in regards to the parable of the "one taken and one left." The "one taken" group is being compared to those who were taken in the flood. The comparison is therefore wicked to wicked and therefore the "one taken" cannot be referring the gathering of the church.

In the parable in Matt.13:24-30 Jesus said "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels and they "first gather the weeds." These are representing the "one taken" group, whom the angels will gather at the end of the age. In further support of this, if we look at Luke's version of the "One taken, one left" we read the following:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

So, in Luke's version we have the Lord saying, "one will be taken and the other left." Then the disciples ask, "Where, Lord" i.e. where are they going to be taken? Then the Lord says "where there is a dead body, there the vultures/birds will gather." The Lord's response is referring to the following event which takes place as He is returning to the earth to end the age:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” - Rev.19:17

When the Lord returns to end the age, an angel will be calling all of the vultures/birds of the air to come and gather for the great supper of God. All of those kings, their generals and their armies, as well as all of those of the "One taken" group, will all be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the rider on the horse, who is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, Jesus Christ. The double-edged sword is symbolic representing the spoken word of God (Eph.6:12 and Heb.4:12). When he speaks, all of those who are gathered there, including the "ones taken" which the angels will have gathered, will all fall dead. Then the birds that will have been gathered will gorge themselves on their flesh "wherever there is a dead body, there the vultures/birds will gather." Their spirits will all go down into Sheol/Hades in torment in flame awaiting the great white throne judgment.

 

[bluto]

I agree with you in this, that there will indeed be [a singular] "THE antichrist".

Here's at least two references to "THE [antichrist]" (in contrast to the "many" that presently exist):

https://biblehub.com/text/1_john/2-22.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/2_john/1-7.htm

You forgot 1 John 2:18 which I quoted in my original post on this thread. I ask the question, "If there is a pretrib rapture then why does the Apostle John tell us that it is the last hour and "THE" singular antichrist is coming and even now there are many antichrist running around the landscape.

In other words, if we are raptured BEFORE the antichrist appears why does he tell us to be on the alert for him?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

I want to add a little adendum where you said I should do a little study on this subject. Trust me, I've been a Christian over 55 years now and when I first became a Christian I was taught exactly what your advocating to me now, the rapture and agreed with it for about 30 years.

I'll stop you right there. I have not been taught this by any man, for I have always done my own studies, with the Spirit as my teacher which is why I have not changed my stance on this issue and which is why I provide the scripture to support my claim.

Then I decided to thoroughly check this all out and came to the conclusion to where I am at now. In a sense, I hope your right because nobody in their right mind wants to meet "THE" antichrist.

Praise be to God that true believers are going to be caught up from the earth prior to the first seal being opened which represents the antichrist, the rider on the white horse, who is a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse of Rev.19:11. When the One who is restraining the full force of sin and the man of sin from being revealed is taken out of the way, so also is when the church is taken out of the way, then that lawless one will be revealed. Believers in the church will never see the antichrist.

Secondly, whether the Lord comes back, pre, mid, or post should not be an issue of division among believers to the point calling names or saying somebody is lying etc. Please note what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy 2:15-19. Do you agree?

This is an issue, just like anyone who is teaching that the resurrection has already taken place as having wandered from the truth. So also those who are not trusting in the Lord's promise and are instead looking forward to being exposed to God's wrath, may just get their wish. Let it be according to your faith. In the beginning of John 14:1-3 regarding the Lord's promise to come back and get believers, Jesus said "Do not let your hearts be troubled." After Paul gave a detailed teaching of the Lord appearing and catching up the church he said, "therefore, comfort one another with these words." In Paul's letter to Titus he referred to the appearing of our Lord to gather us as the "Blessed hope." All that said, if the church were indeed to be exposed to God's wrath and the beasts kingdom, there certainly would be reason to be troubled, we could not comfort one another with Paul's words regarding our gathering and it certainly would be no blessed hope. Your teaching would have believers going through the same wrath that the wicked would. Yet, scripture says that "we are not in darkness so that this day should surprise us like a thief." What would be the difference if both those who are of the light and those who are of the darkness both experience the same time of wrath?

When the word of God states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, that the Lord will keep us out of that coming wrath, it is in reference to removing believers prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that will be going on during that time according to His promise to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He has prepared for all believers.

Your message to those in Christ who have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, is that we will suffer the same wrath as the wicked. It sounds to me like you need to go back to what you were you were taught in the first place, because you have been deceived by what you now believe.

All believers can be confident that the Lord will keep His promise and that they will not suffer the same fate as those rejecting Christ and who are willfully living according to the sinful nature.

I would also draw your attention to the fact that, in chapters 1 thru 3 the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "hagios" translated as "Satints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward you never see the word ekklesia/church again, but only the word "hagios" translated as "Saints." The "church" abruptly disappears from the narrative and is next alluded to in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. After that, the actual word is found again in Rev.22:16 outside of the narrative of God's time of wrath. Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up to heaven, which is why it is not mentioned again regarding the events of wrath taking place on the earth.

 

[DudleyDorite]

Ahwatukee said,

I would also draw your attention to the fact that, in chapters 1 thru 3 the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "hagios" translated as "Satints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward you never see the word ekklesia/church again, but only the word "hagios" translated as "Saints." The "church" abruptly disappears from the narrative...

Hagnos is from the same root word as hagios.
Rev 13: 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints,
Daniel says the same in 7:21-22
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev. 7:9 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
REVELATION 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death.
REVELATION 12:17
17 And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
REVELATION 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, nor received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The church doesn't disappear. The book of Revelation mentions saints, servants, fellow servants, brethren, the witnesses of Jesus after chapter 6, they are the church.

I know...you're going to give me the typical pre-trib line that, "they are tribulation saints."

 

[bluto]

The problem is that you are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two individual events, which is what they are. The scripture above that you posted is regarding the gathering of the church, not the second coming. By interpreting the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which collectively make up the wrath of God. You would also be hard-pressed to explain how the bride is already in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. And also how the bride/church could be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen. - Rev.19:6-8, 14



To wait for His Son from heaven, is regarding His promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17 to gather His church, not when He returns to end the age. The wrath that Jesus rescues us from, is the wrath that will be carried out during that last seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. He removes His church prior to that time of wrath and takes us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us as promised in John 14:1-3.



Sir, I am well aware of staying within context as that is how I have always studied God's word. I have been studying end-time events for over 40 years and all of those scriptures above, are referring to the wrath that is coming upon the earth. Believers are not appointed to suffer that coming wrath, Jesus rescues us from that coming wrath and the Lord said that He would keep us out of that time of wrath. Since we are talking about the same time of wrath, it can't be taken out of context, because it is referring to the same coming wrath which will take place leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age.



The scripture above is in regards to the parable of the "one taken and one left." The "one taken" group is being compared to those who were taken in the flood. The comparison is therefore wicked to wicked and therefore the "one taken" cannot be referring the gathering of the church.

In the parable in Matt.13:24-30 Jesus said "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

So, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels and they "first gather the weeds." These are representing the "one taken" group, whom the angels will gather at the end of the age. In further support of this, if we look at Luke's version of the "One taken, one left" we read the following:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

So, in Luke's version we have the Lord saying, "one will be taken and the other left." Then the disciples ask, "Where, Lord" i.e. where are they going to be taken? Then the Lord says "where there is a dead body, there the vultures/birds will gather." The Lord's response is referring to the following event which takes place as He is returning to the earth to end the age:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” - Rev.19:17

When the Lord returns to end the age, an angel will be calling all of the vultures/birds of the air to come and gather for the great supper of God. All of those kings, their generals and their armies, as well as all of those of the "One taken" group, will all be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the rider on the horse, who is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, Jesus Christ. The double-edged sword is symbolic representing the spoken word of God (Eph.6:12 and Heb.4:12). When he speaks, all of those who are gathered there, including the "ones taken" which the angels will have gathered, will all fall dead. Then the birds that will have been gathered will gorge themselves on their flesh "wherever there is a dead body, there the vultures/birds will gather." Their spirits will all go down into Sheol/Hades in torment in flame awaiting the great white throne judgment.

You said the following to me in your very first sentence. "The problem is that you are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two individual events, which is what they are. No, I contend it is one event called the second coming.

So let me try it this way. When you speak of the gathering of the church are you taking this from 2 Thessalonians 2:1 or from other verses as well? If from other verses as well please post them and then I will continue with what I have to say.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[garee]

Yes, during the apostolic age the spirit of the antichrist was already there but it was at that time that he was being held so that the gospel could be preached to all the nations. The gospel was preached through various means and the apostles were accompanied by signs and wonders at that time- it is for this reason that the antichrist could not work at that time because he also works signs and wonders to deceive men. A genuine sign here and another fake sign there would have rendered the gospel ineffective, so God held him back until the apostles were done with their mandate and then the antichrist pursued and killed them all.

The time of the refomation is called the new testament .Not the apostolic age. The age of apostles began in the garden with Abel .The word apostle simply meaning "sent one" with no other meaning added .It was applied to Abel who was sent to bring the gospel to Cain . Not having faith as being born again Cain slew Abel to help us understand what walking by sight accomplishes. Killing the mis- perceived competition. Satan was a murderer from the beginning .

The apostle Peter was a person used as one of the many antichrists at that time period to show the working of Satan the spirit of the antichrist(singular) working in the affairs of men as antichrists.(plural) Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy in respect to the Son of man, seen .Today blashphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen cannot be forgiven.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23


The working of the antichrists are to make the word of God through the teaching of the Holy Spirit without effect so that men would rather follow after the oral tradition of men as seeking the approval of the things of men seen .And again not the things of God not seen (the faith principle or law)

 

[DudleyDorite]

The time of the refomation is called the new testament .Not the apostolic age. The age of apostles began in the garden with Abel .The word apostle simply meaning "sent one" with no other meaning added .It was applied to Abel who was sent to bring the gospel to Cain . Not having faith as being born again Cain slew Abel to help us understand what walking by sight accomplishes. Killing the mis- perceived competition. Satan was a murderer from the beginning .

The apostle Peter was a person used as one of the many antichrists at that time period to show the working of Satan the spirit of the antichrist(singular) working in the affairs of men as antichrists.(plural) Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy in respect to the Son of man, seen .Today blashphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen cannot be forgiven.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16:22-23


The working of the antichrists are to make the word of God through the teaching of the Holy Spirit without effect so that men would rather follow after the oral tradition of men as seeking the approval of the things of men seen .And again not the things of God not seen (the faith principle or law)

I have never read a page claiming the apostolic age began with Cain and Abel. That's a first. Provide the verse you are referring to. I'd like to see it. You are off the mark by associating apostleship with Abel. There was no gospel and no apostles back then, and just because the word 'sent' is in the text with able (Quote to verse please) it doesn't imply he was an apostle. Here are the meanings according to Vines...

Apostle

is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send"). "The word is used of the Lord Jesus to describe His relation to God, Hbr 3:1; see Jhn 17:3. The twelve disciples chosen by the Lord for special training were so called, Luk 6:13; 9:10. Paul, though he had seen the Lord Jesus, 1Cr 9:1; 15:8, had not 'companied with' the Twelve 'all the time' of His earthly ministry, and hence was not eligible for a place among them, according to Peter's description of the necessary qualifications, Act 1:22. Paul was commissioned directly, by the Lord Himself, after His Ascension, to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.

"The word has also a wider reference. In Act 14:4, 14, it is used of Barnabas as well as of Paul; in Rom 16:7 of Andronicus and Junias. In 2Cr 8:23 (RV, margin) two unnamed brethren are called 'apostles of the churches;' in Phl 2:25 (RV, margin) Epaphroditus is referred to as 'your apostle.' It is used in 1Th 2:6 of Paul, Silas and Timothy, to define their relation to Christ." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 59-60.]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee said,


Hagnos is from the same root word as hagios.
Rev 13: 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints,
Daniel says the same in 7:21-22
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Rev. 6:11 And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev. 7:9 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
REVELATION 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives to the death.
REVELATION 12:17
17 And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
REVELATION 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, nor received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The church doesn't disappear. The book of Revelation mentions saints, servants, fellow servants, brethren, the witnesses of Jesus after chapter 6, they are the church.

I know...you're going to give me the typical pre-trib line that, "they are tribulation saints."

Rev 13: 7 And it was given to him to make war with the saints,
Daniel says the same in 7:21-22

You people need to do a thorough study on this issue!

The saints that the beast is given authority to make war and to conquer in Rev.13:7 is referring to the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This is not the church, nor are they ever referred to as the church.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands."

That they are from every nation, tribe, people and language makes this group all Gentiles. This is the group that is referred to whenever the word "hagios" translated as "Saints" is used throughout the rest of Revelation. Then regarding them, one of the elders says the following:

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

" answered, “Sir, you know.”

John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches. The very fact that the elder is even introducing this group and is asking John who they are, tells you that they are not the church. This is why we do not see the word church in the narrative after the end of chapter 3. Then John tells the elder "Sir, you are the one who knows." John didn't know who this group was, which further supports the fact that they are not the church. Then the elder says the following:

"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

This group are saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. These are those who will have become believers in Christ after the church has been caught up and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. They will be here because they will not have believed in Christ prior to the church being gathered.

I know...you're going to give me the typical pre-trib line that, "they are tribulation saints."

And you should be a good Berean and take that to heart, because the great tribulation saints is who they are. Don't you find it a bit revealing that throughout chapters 1 thru 3 that only the word ekklesia/church is used and that fact that hagios/Saints is not used interchangeably in those chapters. And likewise, after the word ekklesia/church is used exclusively, from chapter 4 onward it drops out of use? If the word ekklesia/church and hagios/Saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then I would not be making this claim. But the fact is that there is a division made in Revelation between the church and saints. After the word "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use, is a clue to the reader.

These great tribulation saints is the same group that is resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age in Rev.20:4-6. They are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the last seven years, the time of God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You said the following to me in your very first sentence. "The problem is that you are not recognizing the appearing of the Lord to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two individual events, which is what they are. No, I contend it is one event called the second coming.

So let me try it this way. When you speak of the gathering of the church are you taking this from 2 Thessalonians 2:1 or from other verses as well? If from other verses as well please post them and then I will continue with what I have to say.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The gathering of the church = John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-52, 2 Thes.2:1.

The conclusion that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath which is initiated at the opening of the first seal, comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture.

One of the major misunderstandings, is that people have interpreted the gathering of the church as being the same event of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. As an example, I Thes.4:13-17 represents the gathering of the church, while Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, represent the Lord's return to end the age. Rev.19:6-8 puts the bride/church as already being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and following the Lord out of heaven to the earth.

Regardless of what you have to say makes no difference and that because by making your claim of the gathering taking place at the second coming, you put the living church through the entire wrath of God and that won't happen.

After 69 of the seven year periods were fulfilled, the Messiah was cut off, Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will fulfill His promise and return for the church, taking us back to the Father's house, as His bride. Following that, the ruler, that antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant, which will initiate that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24).

Already the focus is shifting back to Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, which means that the gathering of the church is very, very, near. For those who think that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, they need to do an indepth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because they will affect the entire earth. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half the earths population will be killed and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. Just as Jesus said, "except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive."

The next major Biblical event to take place will be the catching away of the church. By the time that the Lord returns, by my guestimation, there will be approximately only 10% of the earths population left.

 

[garee]

I have never read a page claiming the apostolic age began with Cain and Abel. That's a first. Provide the verse you are referring to. I'd like to see it. You are off the mark by associating apostleship with Abel. There was no gospel and no apostles back then, and just because the word 'sent' is in the text with able (Quote to verse please) it doesn't imply he was an apostle. Here are the meanings according to Vines...

Apostle

is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send"). "The word is used of the Lord Jesus to describe His relation to God, Hbr 3:1; see Jhn 17:3. The twelve disciples chosen by the Lord for special training were so called, Luk 6:13; 9:10. Paul, though he had seen the Lord Jesus, 1Cr 9:1; 15:8, had not 'companied with' the Twelve 'all the time' of His earthly ministry, and hence was not eligible for a place among them, according to Peter's description of the necessary qualifications, Act 1:22. Paul was commissioned directly, by the Lord Himself, after His Ascension, to carry the Gospel to the Gentiles.

"The word has also a wider reference. In Act 14:4, 14, it is used of Barnabas as well as of Paul; in Rom 16:7 of Andronicus and Junias. In 2Cr 8:23 (RV, margin) two unnamed brethren are called 'apostles of the churches;' in Phl 2:25 (RV, margin) Epaphroditus is referred to as 'your apostle.' It is used in 1Th 2:6 of Paul, Silas and Timothy, to define their relation to Christ." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 59-60.]

Apostle is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send")……………………. This is with no other meaning added.

The 12 sent ones out of the 25 listed in the New Testament were set aside for a cetain purpose to be used in parables in Revelation 21.

The 12 tribes with the tribe of Dan missing were set aside for the same reason. To describe one thing the bride of Christ, the church

Was Moses sent by God ? If so that makes him a apostle . Was Abraham sent as a apostles? e.t.c. Adding meaning to a word can change the authors intent.

It's why we are commanded not to add to a word neither diminish from it (singular) Those who do not to destroy the integrity of His words. Many words are used that way as oral traditions of men to destroy the true meaning .We are made aware of the wiles of the devil.

We should be careful on how we hear God using the proper hermeneutics.

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.Deuteronomomy 4:1-2

 

[DudleyDorite]

Apostle is, lit., "one sent forth" (apo, "from," stello, "to send")……………………. This is with no other meaning added.

The 12 sent ones out of the 25 listed in the New Testament were set aside for a cetain purpose to be used in parables in Revelation 21.

The 12 tribes with the tribe of Dan missing were set aside for the same reason. To describe one thing the bride of Christ, the church

Was Moses sent by God ? If so that makes him a apostle . Was Abraham sent as a apostles? e.t.c. Adding meaning to a word can change the authors intent.

It's why we are commanded not to add to a word neither diminish from it (singular) Those who do not to destroy the integrity of His words. Many words are used that way as oral traditions of men to destroy the true meaning .We are made aware of the wiles of the devil.

We should be careful on how we hear God using the proper hermeneutics.

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.Deuteronomomy 4:1-2

You are adding to the Word by saying Abel was an apostle by using word association which you call "hermeneutics. There are NO Old testament apostles.

It doesn't matter what resource I look at NOT ONE says anything about what you claim. Able or Moses were not apostles. To be an apostle one had to either be hand picked by Jesus, or have witnessed the crucifixion, resurrection, or ascension. It is bad hermeneutics to apply New Testament Apostles to Abel simply on the basis of the word "sent". By doing that kind of thing, one can interpret the bible any way they like and make it say whatever they like.

Does that mean angels are apostles too!

angel...
angelos

a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
angel

It's beyond me how anyone can believe Abel was an apostle sent to bring the gospel to Cain. Sorry, that one takes the cake.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ephesians 1:20-23 says "WHEN" (with regard to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"), and then Ephesians 2:20 says,

"20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (that is, the NT apostles and prophets, meaning, FOLLOWING His death/resurrection).