In verse 21 of Romans 1, it says "They knew God" and the natural man cannot discern a spiritual God. God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth.Agreed.
In other places, it says,
"Now also for this very reason, having brought in all earnestness, supplement into your faith virtue, and into virtue knowledge [G1108 - gnōsin ], ..." 2Pet1:5blb
https://biblehub.com/text/2_peter/1-5.htm
G1108 [noun] - gnōsin... related to the word found in 1Cor2:14
G1097 [verb] - gnōnai
... and the context is indeed the people in 1Cor3:1, people who are saved but have not moved on to maturity (with the ability to understand the spiritual things Paul is referring to in chpt 2). And I agree that this is a wholly distinct context from that of Romans 1, which IS referring to unbelievers/unsaved persons.
Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone
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Consider how William Kelly [1800's] puts it (how much am I permitted to quote, with link, of the following?
) :"Again, this verse is not, as some suppose, limited as a preface to the proof of Gentile depravity; it is rather the thesis in brief, which is opened out in the rest of Romans 1, 2, 3, down to verse 21, which resumes the treatment of God's righteousness, and begins the details of that which we had in Romans 1:17. I understand, therefore, that verse 18 gives first the general description of human ungodliness in every phase, and then the unrighteousness which was at that time most conspicuous in the Jews who combined with practical injustice a tenacious hold or possession of the truth: the former demonstrated to the end of Romans 1; the latter (after the transition of Romans 2:1-16.) pursued from Romans 2:17 to Romans 3:20. Had this two-fold aspect been apprehended in the verse before us, the rendering of the Authorized Version would not have been deserted for "restraining the truth by unrighteousness," which is a sense framed to meet the condition of the heathen who were supposed here to be alone in the apostle's view. The same misconception wrought mischief in lowering the character both of the revelation of God's wrath from heaven, and of the truth in order to meet paganism. Admit the universal scope of the moral description with a specific reference to those who held the truth in unrighteousness, and the sense which results is as easy as it is all-important, the fitting introduction to the entire episode that follows till the apostle takes up his proper theme, God's righteousness revealed in the gospel.
"The apostle next proceeds to set forth the proofs of the guilt of men [...]
"The next ground is not the knowable but the positively known. "Because, having known God, they glorified him not as God, nor were thankful, but became vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into* a likeness of an image† of corruptible man and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles." (Ver. 21-23.) A traditional knowledge of God is in question; and as the former regarded man with evidence from the beginning calculated and adequate to indicate a divine First Cause, so the objective knowledge of God here spoken of was the portion of man even after the flood: indeed not till after that mighty event do we hear of idolatry. But man was unequal to the task of preserving the holy deposit; and this, because of his moral state. When they did know God, they neither glorified Him as such, nor were they thankful. This left room for vain reasonings, which again darkened the heart instead of leading it into light. It was the self-sufficiency, and so the folly, of the creature.
"...man departed more and more from God till the flood; after it [after the flood] he gave up the knowledge of God for the worship of the creature. The race fell into ever increasing error and evil, till a partial revelation by Moses and the complete manifestation of God in Christ judged morally the heathen world, proving its declension, not progress, its insensibility to right reason, and its departure from true traditions into the degradation of idolatry."
[bold / underline mine]
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/romans/1.htm
[perhaps with caveats regarding the fuller article, as I'm only covering what is in the quote above
]
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LPT
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- If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path?
- Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, "Because God told us so!" But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not. Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect.
- The interesting counter-argument would be when Calvinists say to non-Calvinists, "But why bother evangelizing... God already knows if a particular person will ever accept the message or not." However, foreknowledge does not imply predestination, and God transcends time.
- If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.
- Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.
- If God predestined everything, then God created sin.
- This is where Calvinists disagree among themselves. There are several camps; some that believe every little detail has been predestined, those who believe that God predestined all major events (including salvation), and those who believe that God only predestines those who will be saved. I suppose this point would address the first camp; If indeed God did predestine every little thing, then God did create sin. He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to.
- If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant.
- If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.
- If God predestined everything, then there is no such thing as randomness. (Now that's an interesting research topic..)
- If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be damned!
- This concept is called double-predestination. The logic is rather simple: if God only allows the elect to be saved, and God predestined the elect, then by default, God predestined everyone else who is not elect to be eternally condemned.
- Most Calvinists believe it, but there are quite a few who don't. Thomas Aquinas' view was that God does not in fact damn those whose inherent sin would normally be condemning; God simply "passes over" those who he chose to not predestine. While this view is also somewhat arrogant, (how arrogant it is for us to believe we were predestined while our neighbor might not be), it simply doesn't make sense. The bible clearly states otherwise.
- (never mind that little verse that says "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life")
- Jesus died for everyone, not just the elect.
- Calvinists would point out verses such as John 10:11, Acts 20:28, and John 15:13-14, which states that Jesus died for his friends. However, Jesus promptly then states that we are his friends if we obey his commands. Clearly, though, Jesus died for everyone. Verses decribe Jesus as the savior of the world, the savior of all men, and etc. Specifically, 1 John 2:2, which states that "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
- Once-saved-always-saved is a farce
- One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
- Calvinists typically don't have a response to verses like these other than to falsely argue that "well, the sinner must not have ever really been born from above to begin with."
- It is not unfeasible for someone to be whole-heartedly devoted to God for a majority of their lifetime and then suddenly snap and turn totally against God in his heart. For example, suppose Billy Graham were to all of a sudden denounce God and start worshiping Satan. Calvinists would suggest that Billy Graham must not have ever have been saved whereas any other rational person would say that he once was a great man of faith whose heart was totally devoted to God but then suddenly snapped.
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Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP: T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.): Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls." Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live." Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts." John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." 2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."
- Preaching the Gospel is the ordinary means of salvation; faith in Christ is the result of hearing the word, the doctrine of God preached. Preaching, God sends; if heard attentively, faith will be produced; and if they believe the report, the arm of the Lord will be revealed in their salvation. U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith.): 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..." 2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth." Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..." Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind. The reason not all are saved is because they failed to repent and receive the Saviour, not because He didn't provide for their salvation.): Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL." 1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe." 1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD." Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN." 1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."
- Universal vs. Limited Atonement
- Some Calvinists will argue that a universal principle does exist in the atonement. The death of Christ, they say, has secured many non-redemptive benefits for mankind in general. This they frequently sum up under the heading of "common grace." Boettner writes:
- "God makes His sun to shine on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. Many temporal blessings are thus secured for all men, although these fall short of being sufficient to insure salvation."16
- Where do the Scriptures ever state that temporal blessings in the natural realm - sunshine, rain, etc. - were secured for mankind by Christ's death? There is not a shred of evidence for this idea; it is entirely philosophical and conjectural.
- In the debate over the extent of the atonement, Calvinists will point to Scriptures connecting Christ's death to a specific people: his sheep (John 10:11); his friends (John 15:13); "many" (Heb. 9:28). Arminians will produce passages indicating that Jesus died for the "whole world" (1 John 2:2); "all" (2 Cor. 5:15); "every man" (Heb. 2:9).
- These texts can be harmonized when we consider that the redemptive benefits of Christ's death are both specific and God has placed the life-giving fountain of Christ's blood in His Church. Our Lord "loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Eph. 5:25). The Church was "bought with his own blood" (Acts 20:28). That makes the atonement of Christ specific; it was for His Church.
- But the atonement is universal in the sense that the Church's gates are wide open to "everyone who calls" (Rom. 10:13), to "him who is thirsty" (Rev. 21:6), to "all you who are weary and burdened" (Matt. 11:28). The invitation to believe, be baptized and enter the Church extends to "every tribe and language and people and nation" (Rev. 5:9). In that sense, the atonement is universal and available to all.
- Or, looking at in another way, Christ's blood is "the blood of the covenant" (Matt. 26:28). Jesus died for those in the covenant of grace, not for those outside of it. Is that fatalism? Not at all. Anyone may enter that covenant by becoming a Christian. It is open-ended. The atonement, therefore, is both limited and universal. It is both specific and general.
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I = IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted): Lamentations 3:35-36: "To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not." Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!" John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life." Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."
P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints): Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. " John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand." Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
CONCLUSION: Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator. Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment." Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him." John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints): Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. " John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand." Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
CONCLUSION: Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but arbitrarily. This strikes at the love and justice of God, contradicts the fact that Christ gave his life for ALL, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator. Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment." Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him." John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
The issue I raised is that you claim that the milk of the word which is spiritual in nature is the same as the natural physical realm revealing God's eternal power and Godhead shown in Rom 1:20.
It is apparent from Rom 1:20-21 that the natural, physical realm does reveal God's eternal power and Godhead which can be understood and known to natural man.
Your error is that you go to 1 Cor 2:14 and claim that the "spiritual things" spoken of there are the same as the "natural things" shown in Rom 1:20-21.ForestGreenCook said:
Here is what Thayer's (1889 edition) says about the word "knew" as used in Rom 1:21 –
"In particular, to become acquainted with, to know, is employed in the N. T. of the knowledge of God and Christ and of the things relating to them or proceeding from them; a. τόν Θεόν, the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles: Ro. i. 21 ; ... "
So we see that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 is not some indepth, spiritual knowledge. It is an acquaintance with because God has chosen to make known His eternal power and Godhead to natural man through the natural, physical creation.
It's really interesting that you claim God is sovereign over all His creation, but only if His sovereignty fits your paradigm. In other words, you do not allow God to choose to reveal His eternal power and Godhead to natural man through the natural, physical creation. That just does not fit your concept of "sovereign" because you have to define what "sovereign" is rather than allow God to be sovereign in the manner He determines.
According to Rom 1:20-21, the natural man can recognize and ascertain God's eternal power and Godhead as the natural, physical realm reveals.ForestGreenCook said:
Where have I stated God gives the natural man the ability to discern spiritual things?ForestGreenCook said:
I stated that God reveals His eternal power and Godhead to natural man through the natural, physical realm ... just as Rom 1:20-21 tells us.
The one who cannot "harmonize" is the one who insists that the natural, physical realm of Rom 1:20-21 is the same as the spiritual matters shown in 1 Cor 2:14. All because he holds to calvin's doctrine which does not recognize that while God wants all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth God also allows mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
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UnderGrace
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Once saved always saved is not a farce.
The term "saved" does not always refer to saved from eternal death. This line is about restoring saints.
While I agree you have shown the errors of Calvinism, I credit the reformers for pointing out the errors of the Roman Church and restoring many of the essential truths of salvation.
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LPT
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As far as the title of the thread yes indeed God does loves people, He nitted all humans in their mother's womb. is
Hmm indeed I see your point, good post about that, the roman church appears to have quite afew errors.
Hmm indeed I see your point, good post about that, the roman church appears to have quite afew errors.
Predestination only pertains to the adoption of God's elect. God did not predestine everything man does, in fact he gave man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but man's eternal destination is by God's choice, without the help of man. If one of God's children is responsible for showing his brother in Christ the error of his way and is the cause of his repentance, he has delivered (saved) his soul from a death (When we are disobedient we are known as "dead"( from our fellowship with God). not lost eternally. You are trying to use scriptures pertaining to disobedient children of God and applying them to the natural man, void of the Spirit.
Your definition of the word "knew", just backs up my claim that these men were children of God and not the natural man, because with the indwelling of the Spirit, they could understand and believe creation being the work of God. The natural man, because of the absence of the Holy Spirit, could not believe they were spiritually created. Instead he would contribute it to "the big bang theory', evolution, etc. To answer your question, "where have I stated God gives the natural man the ability to discern spiritual things?" You just did with Romans 1. Also, every time you give me scriptures using the words, repent, accept, believe, confess, etc. There are no scriptures where the natural man, void of the Spirit, is given these commandments, They all apply to disobedient children of God.
God is sovereign over all mankind. If God wanted to eternally save all mankind (the natural man) then he would have had Jesus die to take away the sins of all mankind, but God told Jesus to be a sacrifice for those that God gave him. Only those, and every one that he died for will live with him in heaven, without the loss of even one. God did not predestine the rest of mankind to hell, It was not his will to save them and he left them to their own destruction. He would still have been a just God if he had left all of us to our own destruction.
Which is why they are without excuse (Rom 1:20).
Because through the natural, physical realm a person can ascertain God's eternal power and Godhead.
So rather than seek after the Creator when they observe the natural, physical realm which reveals God's eternal power and Godhead, they they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations (Rom 1:21) and came up with "the big bang theory, evolution, etc".
What I showed you from Rom 1 is that the natural, physical realm points to the Creator.
You are the one who keeps insisting that the natural, physical realm of Rom 1:20-21 is the same as the spiritual matters of 1 Cor 2:14.
The natural, physical realm can and does reveal God as Creator of the universe and all that is therein. You continue to close your eyes to this very clearly stated truth in Rom 1.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
The scriptures will not harmonize for you unless you recognize that most of the salvation scriptures are talking about a deliverance we receive here on earth. All of the inspired scriptures contained in the bible are God's instructions to his children on how he wants them to to live their live here on earth. Some salvation scriptures are referring to an eternal deliverance, but not most. God does not give instructions to the natural man on how to get saved, because there are no,1,2,3, steps on how to save yourselves eternally.
... in the meantime you misconstrue Scripture to make God's Word fit into your preconceived notion of what you think Scripture should say ...
How about you just believe God is sovereign over all and allows mankind to suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... just as He tells us in Rom 1:18.
God is still sovereign even when He allows mankind to reject Him.
Your statement, "Because through the natural, physical realm, a person can ascertain (to find out a fact not previously known) God's (a spiritual God that the natural man does not acknowledge) eternal power and Godhead ( that the natural man cannot discern). Discern = the ability to decide between truth and error. If you take a good hard look at that statement, does it actually make sense to you? It does not to me, and furthermore, it will not harmonize with all of the scriptures.
Again, the natural man cannot suppress something he does not have - spiritual truth,,,
I have already explained to you that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 means "In particular, to become acquainted with, to know, is employed in the N. T. of the knowledge of God and Christ and of the things relating to them or proceeding from them; a. τόν Θεόν, the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles: Ro. i. 21 ; ... ". That definition is straight from your beloved Thayer's.
Replacing "ascertain" with "become acquainted with" does not change the fact that Rom 1:21 states the natural man is able to "become acquainted" with His eternal power and Godhead through observation of the natural, physical realm.
You are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness concerning this issue and you are telling God that He cannot allow mankind to reject Him because you won't allow it.
Argue about that with God. He's the One Who made the statement that natural man can and does suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (Greek katechō - to restrain, hinder, suppress) the truth in unrighteousness.
Notice it's not God Who's suppressing the truth ... it is the ungodly and unrighteous men who suppress the truth.
But that doesn't fit your theory on the sovereignty of God.
God can allow men to reject Him and still remain sovereign.
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LPT
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You may show another person but it's up to that person to choose to repent. Finite human minds can't even begin to understand what God already knows of past present and future don't be so bold to say you know Predestination, he knows who will and will not you don't.