Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[Nehemiah6]

Calvinism is all about giving God the glory and honor He deserves...

That's what Calvinists would like to believe, but it is the exact opposite. Calvinism makes a mockery of the Gospel of Grace, hence the God of all grace. The Gospel is all about grace, not about a false *sovereignty* which makes God responsible for all th sin and evil in this world, and makes God a liar.

 

[Slayer]

That's what Calvinists would like to believe, but it is the exact opposite. Calvinism makes a mockery of the Gospel of Grace, hence the God of all grace. The Gospel is all about grace, not about a false *sovereignty* which makes God responsible for all th sin and evil in this world, and makes God a liar.

You say the Gospel is all about Grace, thus limiting it to one aspect of the Gospel. The Gospel is much much more, it also involves hatred. Why would a God of grace cast people into eternal torment in hell, this is exactly what the prosperity preaches do to make their millions from people with itching ears.

The gospel message is very sobering and serious, we can't dance around those parts we don't like and just focus on the love, peace and prosperity. People hate Calvinism, because we preach the whole counsel of God.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You say the Gospel is all about Grace, thus limiting it to one aspect of the Gospel. The Gospel is much much more, it also involves hatred. Why would a God of grace cast people into eternal torment in hell, this is exactly what the prosperity preaches do to make their millions from people with itching ears.

The gospel message is very sobering and serious, we can't dance around those parts we don't like and just focus on the love, peace and prosperity. People hate Calvinism, because we preach the whole counsel of God.

The gospel is - God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to reconcile the world unto himself. Jesus Christ died upon the cross for the remission of sins, was raised from the dead to eternal life - Eternal life is given to those who believe in him - that is the gospel.

 

[Slayer]

The gospel is - God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to reconcile the world unto himself. Jesus Christ died upon the cross for the remission of sins, was raised from the dead to eternal life - Eternal life is given to those who believe in him - that is the gospel.

That's the Gospel according to you, thank you for sharing your opinion but I will kindly reject it as false and offensive to my God.

 

[trofimus]

The position of Slayer is a reason I left calvinism

Even though some facts or positions of calvinism are biblical, many calvinists incline to describe God in a bad light and are closed in historical theology of one or few men.

Also, Calvin was not "the best theologian", he, as many other reformes, totally missed in the area of joining state and church. Thats why many people were persecuted or even killed in Switzerland and other protestant countries for their different faith or lifestyle.

Even though regarding predestination I would agree with Calvin in those times, I would much much rather live under Jacob Arminius, who was more tolerant to others.

 

[trofimus]

The gospel is - God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ to reconcile the world unto himself. Jesus Christ died upon the cross for the remission of sins, was raised from the dead to eternal life - Eternal life is given to those who believe in him - that is the gospel.

That's the Gospel according to you, thank you for sharing your opinion but I will kindly reject it as false and offensive to my God.

Of course, its a shortage, but there is nothing unbiblical in it. Some parts can be missing like teaching about judgement, hell and resurrection, but the point of peacefulbeliver was not to present a systematic theology.

 

[Slayer]

Of course, its a shortage, but there is nothing unbiblical in it. Some parts can be missing like teaching about judgement, hell and resurrection, but the point of peacefulbeliver was not to present a systematic theology.

He stated that God sent His Son to reconcile the "WORLD" to Himself. If that was the case then God failed miserably and we don't believe in a God who tried to reconcile the World but failed. The God we understand from the scriptures, never fails in anything He does.

If He wanted to save the WORLD, He would have done just that and He wouldn't have to cast all those poor souls He failed to save into hell.

 

[trofimus]

He stated that God sent His Son to reconcile the "WORLD" to Himself. If that was the case then God failed miserably ...

"in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself"
Θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ κόσμον καταλλάσσων ἑαυτῷ
2Cor 5:19

 

[1ofthem]

I beg to differ, iron clad theology is the key to accessing the Gospel. You need to have the right understanding of the Gospel to unlock it's power.

We need to make sure it's the Gospel and not just some theology. Better make sure we are on Jesus' track and not be prideful and arrogant.

Reminds me of a song....

 

[1ofthem]

I like the verse in that song where it says standing up for Jesus that's your thing but your standing on people's hearts...Charity is a virtue to be praised better get back on Jesus' track.

 

[Nehemiah6]

He stated that God sent His Son to reconcile the "WORLD" to Himself. If that was the case then God failed miserably and we don't believe in a God who tried to reconcile the World but failed. The God we understand from the scriptures, never fails in anything He does.

But you have failed to understand what that Scripture teaches because you filter everything through Five Point Calvinism.

At the Cross, Christ literally "took away" the sin of the world. The sin debt of all humanity was paid at the Cross. Thus God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. But that fact is only effective for those who obey the Gospel. Those are the sinners who are reconciled to God when they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If all would do so, all would be reconciled and saved.

 

[Slayer]

But you have failed to understand what that Scripture teaches because you filter everything through Five Point Calvinism.

At the Cross, Christ literally "took away" the sin of the world. The sin debt of all humanity was paid at the Cross. Thus God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. But that fact is only effective for those who obey the Gospel. Those are the sinners who are reconciled to God when they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If all would do so, all would be reconciled and saved.

This is where we part ways with Arminians, we believe God will draw every single elect person to Himself and leave the reprobate in their sin.

 

[garee]

But you have failed to understand what that Scripture teaches because you filter everything through Five Point Calvinism.

At the Cross, Christ literally "took away" the sin of the world. The sin debt of all humanity was paid at the Cross. Thus God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. But that fact is only effective for those who obey the Gospel. Those are the sinners who are reconciled to God when they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If all would do so, all would be reconciled and saved.

Yes all humanity as the many that the father gave the Son . The key is many.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It would be impossible to believe on His name if he does not first give us the power or authority to do so. Those who do not beleive (no faith) are already condemed.

Our new faith that alone comes from hearing God previously having none is the gift of eternal life.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.John3:36

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The key is many."

Do you mean, like in Romans 5:15, "For if through the offence of one many be dead..."



... and is that different from 2 Corinthians 5:14-15,

"14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

 

[garee]

"The key is many."

Do you mean, like in Romans 5:15, "For if through the offence of one many be dead..."



... and is that different from 2 Corinthians 5:14-15,

"14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

Yes the all in 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, is in respect to as many as the father gave the Son.

It would be like having 50 barrels of pickles all marked with a number. And a person comes into purchase .saying; give me all the pickles in barrel 12 and 37.Not one pickle more or less

As many as God has purchased all will come .

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes the all in 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, is in respect to as many as the father gave the Son.

It would be like having 50 barrels of pickles all marked with a number. And a person comes into purchase .saying; give me all the pickles in barrel 12 and 37.Not one pickle more or less

As many as God has purchased all will come .

Let me try that again.

Firstly, "Romans 5:15, "For if through the offence of one many be dead..." "

--"the offence of one" (who is the "one" referring to?)

--"many be dead" (who is the "many" referring to, that be dead?)



Secondly, in 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, who then is: "[And for] He died for all [you are saying this refers to all who will be saved (all of the saved, according to your view)] to-the-end-that those living [this, to me, sounds like a distinct group from the previous verse's (v.14's) "then were ALL DEAD" (in reference to 'if one died for all')] should [do such and such]..."

I see two distinct groups, here... the "then were ALL DEAD" and the "to-the-end-that THOSE LIVING" (which is not "ALL" but just "THOSE LIVING" [a segment])


Thirdly, do you think...

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2Pet2:1

...refers to saved or unsaved persons?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How do you harmonize 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9? No man comes to the Father but by Jesus Christ - salvation hinges on mankinds belief in Jesus Christ . . . The dream that Nebuchadnezzar had was the result of HIS worshipping other gods and demanding that others do the same and nothing that Nebuchadnezzar could do would change that except to "break off thy sins by righteousness and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquility."

Did Nebuchadnezzar break of his sins? Nope - The king spake, and said, Is not this the great Babylon, THAT I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom BY THE MIGHT OF MY POWER, and for the HONOR OF MY MAJESTY? . . . . PRIDE caused the destruction that came upon Nebuchadnezzar - the fulfillment of his dream.
But when those days were fulfilled, those days prophesied through his dream, his understanding returned to him and he BLESSED THE MOST HIGH, and PRAISED AND HONORED him. So, God showed Nebuchadnezzar what would happen if he didn't break off his sins by doing righteousness and his iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor via the dream he had and that is exactly what was fulfilled.

That section of scripture has to do with King Nebuchadnezzar and him only but it does relate to Deut. 30:19: I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. Could he have chosen "to break of his sins" and change the events? Apparently so. (You will surely reap what you sow!!)

I am fully aware 1 Cor 2:14 is in the Bible, Forest, and I am also fully aware of how you mangle 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11; and others to make them fit Calvinism.

A natural man can hear the gospel and understand it well enough to choose to believe it, at which point he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becomes saved.

Sorry I took so long to answer, I was on vacation. 2 Pet 3:9- Ln 2 Pet 3:1, we find that Peter is addressing his attention to "them that have obtained like precious faith". Peter is giving them a warning, even including himself by using the word "us-ward", that when they are disobedient to God, they should repent so they would not perish(lose their fellowship with God). When we are disobedient to God, scriptures refers to it as being dead to his fellowship until we repent. The "ALL" in this scripture applies to them that have obtained like precious faith. The "All men" in 1 Tim 2:4 is the same as in 2 Pet 3:9. There is a deliverance (salvation= deliverance) here on earth when we come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I am fully aware 1 Cor 2:14 is in the Bible, Forest, and I am also fully aware of how you mangle 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11; and others to make them fit Calvinism.

A natural man can hear the gospel and understand it well enough to choose to believe it, at which point he receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and becomes saved.

I understand why you have to make the natural man to understand "enough to choose to believe" in order to uphold your belief that man has a part in his eternal salvation, but 1 Cor 2:14 does not say "enough to choose to believe", it says "he receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God; neither can he know them".

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Well, both systems need to "explain" some verses. Therefore, none of these systems will be perfect. I think that Calvinism has less problems, though, both Scripturally and philosophically.

I do not know what is the right explanation of 1Tm 2:4. I know of several possibilites, but I am not certain which one is the one Paul meant.

2Pt 3:9 is, logically, about predestined ones. Because in the other case (God waiting for everybody), He would never come. New people are born all the time.

Eph 1:13 - I do not see anything specifically calvnistic or arminianistic in this verse...

Ez 33:11 is a good one for arminianism. i do not know how to make it fit to hard-core calvinism.

Ez 33:11- Many times in scripture God refers to his children as "the wicked". All scriptures must harmonize. Rightly divide the scriptures. If they do not harmonize, you do not have the truth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

How is your statement any different then the fact Christ look down the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who wouldn't. So with that in mind God had already knew who he would condemn and who he wouldn't because he saw and knew. If this is the case then we could say that God is a respecter of persons and not fair because of the fact he saw and knew.

Read Ps 53:2-3 and you will know what God saw by his foreknowledge.