OSAS= House Built on Sand

[justpassinthrough]

What qualifies for a person to be in a lost state. What does that look like in practical terms for a person?

I will keep to biblical answers since we are discussing a controversial topic.


13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living.


prodigal living -

Immoral lifestyle; sinful


But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’



Here is how the Bible says we are to abide or remain in Christ -

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here is how the Bible defines love -

• this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


Jesus defined who were His -

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Luke 8:21



The biblical definition of a righteous person.

• He who practices righteousness is righteous,

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7



Here is how important it is to continue to do what Jesus taught.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

JPT

 

[preston39]

Lol.."once saved always saved" has ALWAYS been around..not just the trendy doctorine of the day..lol

j...,

That is a definitive statement.
Please show me significant evidence....... before the 1960's. I have not found it yet.

 

[preston39]

Believers receive the Holy Spirit through Spirit baptism, not water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:16-17; Ephesians 1:13).

m...,

Wrong ...but, ok for a minute; Please explain.... spirit baptism...how and when?

 

[mailmandan]

m...,

Wrong ...but, ok for a minute; Please explain.... spirit baptism...how and when?

It's you who is wrong. You actually need me to explain Spirit baptism to you? The baptism of the Holy Spirit is where the Holy Spirit places the believer into the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven. "For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4) and for the first time, people were permanently indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

*1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit, that is all believers have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so it's not merely a special experience for only a few.

Spirit baptism is clearly distinct from water baptism. Matthew 3:11 - “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Acts 11:16 - And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. (BEFORE WATER BAPTISM) Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[Jewel5712]

j...,

That is a definitive statement.
Please show me significant evidence....... before the 1960's. I have not found it yet.

See the 3 pg reply to ralph..biblically based..long read tho..

 

[preston39]

See the 3 pg reply to ralph..biblically based..long read tho..

j...,
I see nothing in that which answers the question of the 1960's.
Also, nothing relating to your thought of..."age old position".

Again, to date our research finds nothing mentioning the OSAS position prior to the 1960's social and moral revolution this society experienced.
his is note worthy and needs considerating by anyone who accepts the unreasonable position of OSAS as biblical doctrine.

 

[preston39]

timed out

Para 3....This is note......
needs ....consideration (not considerating)

 

[Ralph-]

how do we balance the tension in between reaching people while at the same time honoring what Paul said , and being there for people in need of support?? tough question.

You can still minister to them, you just can't do that like you would if they are a saved member of the church. You do that as you would do that for an unsaved person.

Assuming the person has rejected the efforts of the church to confront his sin, Jesus said to "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matthew 18:17). We see from 2 Corinthians 2 concerning this same sinning fellow that they put out of the fellowship that turning him over to the flesh and out of the church because of his sin doesn't mean hate him and not support him:

6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him." - 2 Corinthians 2:6-8

You just don't do that from within the church itself. You forgive, comfort, and love him as you would an unsaved person. Whether he really is saved or not is not the point. The goal of turning him out of the church is that he not be leaven and a stumbling block to the others in the church and letting his sin spread to the others:

"Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? " - 1 Corinthians 5:6

 

[Ralph-]

I will keep to biblical answers since we are discussing a controversial topic.


13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living.


prodigal living -

Immoral lifestyle; sinful


But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’



Here is how the Bible says we are to abide or remain in Christ -

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here is how the Bible defines love -

• this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


Jesus defined who were His -

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Luke 8:21



The biblical definition of a righteous person.

• He who practices righteousness is righteous,

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7



Here is how important it is to continue to do what Jesus taught.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

JPT

@mailmandan, you have made long posts about how dead faith is really no faith (a fundamental tenant of Calvinism), so why did you react negatively to this post?

 

[mailmandan]

@mailmandan, you have made long posts about how dead faith is really no faith (a fundamental tenant of Calvinism), so why did you react negatively to this post?

Dead faith is not living faith and I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, so that label means nothing to me. Why would I respond positively to the same old arguments by JPT which have already been refuted and especially since his arguments stem from teaching works salvation? Some people are obviously not here to listen or learn, but are only interested in pushing their biased agendas and stirring up arguments.

 

[Jewel5712]

OSAS is not built on sand as long as you read, memorize and live by the Biblical morals.

but remember that Once Saved here means Saved from the power of sin.

Christians are not yet saved from eternal damnation. We need to face Jesus on the Judgment Day first in order to receive eternal life or become part of the Rapture when Jesus will reign for 1,000 years.

A good Christian might end up like this before Judgment Day:

Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

He might die both in physical death and second death on the lake of fire as punishment of the Lord.

MIGHT ..being the operative word..but then again..where does Gods forgiveness come in?

 

[Jewel5712]

Simply...the sand is the works of man. Sand is shifting. I live in Florida where the sinkholes swallow these "works".

The rock stands solid all through time.

The truth of once saved always saved is not about anything of man but all the plan of God. So who do we put our trust in? That settles the matter.

I thought building ones house on the solid "rock" meant building your lige on God and His principals..the "sand" was building you life on what society dictates..always shiftimg and nothing solid etc

 

[gb9]

You can still minister to them, you just can't do that like you would if they are a saved member of the church. You do that as you would do that for an unsaved person.

Assuming the person has rejected the efforts of the church to confront his sin, Jesus said to "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matthew 18:17). We see from 2 Corinthians 2 concerning this same sinning fellow that they put out of the fellowship that turning him over to the flesh and out of the church because of his sin doesn't mean hate him and not support him:

6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him." - 2 Corinthians 2:6-8

You just don't do that from within the church itself. You forgive, comfort, and love him as you would an unsaved person. Whether he really is saved or not is not the point. The goal of turning him out of the church is that he not be leaven and a stumbling block to the others in the church and letting his sin spread to the others:

"Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? " - 1 Corinthians 5:6

good points.

 

[Jewel5712]

Of course not.

However they have to repent, which means turn to God and be reconciled to Him.

Though they are lost, God loves them and desires for them to return to Him.

This is clearly show by the joy in heaven when they do repent.


JPT

PARTAAAAAA IN HEAVEN!##

 

[Jewel5712]

@tourist

MORNING TOURIST! Have your coffee yet???

 

[tourist]

@tourist

MORNING TOURIST! Have your coffee yet???

Actually, I have and now sipping more. It's cold and leftover from yesterday but I don't really care. Gonna get a K-cup machine soon. Mr. Coffee and I will be parting our ways soon.

Busy morning so far. Been to the store, fed the cats, change their litter pans, brought down the dirty laundry to the laundry area. My honey will be down shortly and we will have breakfast. Then I will start the dishwasher and we will have our daily devotions. This afternoon I will be going to my quit smoking clinic. We meet once a week on Monday's from 5 - 6 PM. This will be my 3rd session with 3 more remaining after this afternoon. Still no progress on actually quitting though and that is wearing on my mind.

I am an addict and nicotine is my drug of choice. That is really sad if you ask me.

 

[UnderGrace]

Who told you that believing and trusting in order to be saved is an evil work of self righteousness that can't justify/save???? Show me this verse that says I'm damned if I believe and trust in God. Does God do your trusting for you?

It's only through God's gift of faith, and his encouragement, that any of us can choose to trust and believe. That's why it's not a boast of self righteousness, even though WE do it. Besides, no where in scripture does it say that us doing the trusting and believing is us trying to earn our own salvation by our own merit. That's a man made invention, born of the misguided notion that since salvation is not by the works then it is by nothing at all. That is a lie. Justification/salvation is through believing. But you and countless others have decided believing is you trying to earn your own salvation simply because it's something you do. The works of the works gospel are not defined by that criteria.



I have NEVER said we are not secure in Him. We are absolutely secure in Him. That's why you need to STAY IN HIM. He is the refuge from the coming Judgment. You have to stay in Him to continue to be protected for the coming Day of Judgment. Only those who stay in the house are protected from the destroying angel (Exodus 12:22).



That's right. All it takes is one application of Jesus' blood, by faith, to be justified/saved. One time for all time doesn't mean you can't ever lose it. It means you do not have to get another sacrifice every time you sin. The one you have lasts forever and stays continually ministering before the Father in Heaven on your behalf (Hebrews 7:25). Stop believing in that sacrifice and it no longer ministers on your behalf. The continuing sacrifice on the altar in heaven is only for believers, not unbelievers and ex-believers.



That's because the Bible doesn't make the distinction between living for God and being saved like the church does. Ultimately, there is no such thing as a person with dead faith who is saved in the Bible. That is a non-Biblical invention of the last days church.


You need to stay in what is most certainly and definitely accomplished. You can't continue to have the never-ending and faultless benefit of the finished work of Christ's sacrifice if you abandon it in unbelief. Don't throw away your confidence in that which is most certainly worthy of your confidence!

You have been shown here and other threads the correct understanding of the word "believe" according to the Greek rules of grammar yet you have denied it repeatedly.

So what more can any of us do.

Your "obedience" as necessary for ultimate salvation is making salvation by your own doing, this cannot be denied.

 

[UnderGrace]

It's an irrational doctrine built upon the belief in total inability, which makes it impossible to do anything pleasing to GOD . So the only option left is to believe that GOD does everything and doing anything is considered self-works, carnal, sin, etc.

Has nothing to do with total inability.

The natural man is not able to secure his own salvation by his own works, he/she can try but 100% perfection is required.
The believer can and does please God by his thoughts and actions.

 

[UnderGrace]

I will keep to biblical answers since we are discussing a controversial topic.


13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living.


prodigal living -

Immoral lifestyle; sinful


But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’



Here is how the Bible says we are to abide or remain in Christ -

• Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


Here is how the Bible defines love -

• this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3


Jesus defined who were His -

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Luke 8:21



The biblical definition of a righteous person.

• He who practices righteousness is righteous,

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7



Here is how important it is to continue to do what Jesus taught.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

JPT

So Jesus only bore the burden of only some of our sins, and the debt is partially paid depending upon how we perform?

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh really, I absolutely believe what they say and might I add the ONLY way to understand scripture is from the truth that we are eternally saved in Christ.

You have yet to resolve the issue of at what point one looses their salvation, I need to know this so I can be clear when I witness to people, they should know and have this information with absolute clarity, God would want them to know I am sure of it, that is why I keep asking.

Is it once, twice , a month, a year?

Does God apply the same standard to everyone, does everyone only get one chance, is everyone allotted one month or is it ten years, maybe two minutes is the cut off point of disbelief?

I tell you these things to show your paradigm does not work?

This is the same God who designed Noah's Ark, the brain, the Levitical law and now He cannot give us some hard numbers on the frequency and duration of our unbelief to forfeit our inheritance?

Amen to these truths.......my boble is clear...the irrevocable gift is exactly that....irrevocable.....!! To say it is revocable is to flat call God a liar....no wonder the number is plenteous that gets cast......most in Christiandom teach a self help guru I keep myself saved and or a losable salvation that equates to a self salvation maintained by man and not Christ....they trust themselves over Jesus.....thry have two main characteristics...

a. They CLAIM to know Christ
b. They believe their right to enter is based upon what they have done.

I.E.

faith plus works to gain, maintain, embellish or top off salvation = no gospel found in the bible anf NO POWER TO SAVE A MAN!