Not By Works
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I have no opinion on the rapture one way or another, I am too busy protecting the simple gospel of Christ Jesus.
Do you? From what I have read you believe that we are not secure in Christ?
Do you? From what I have read you believe that we are not secure in Christ?
Read again...that's not true.
We are secure in our repentance, baptism and righteousness if we..."maintain until the end". OSAS is Ludicrous makes no common sense and relegates G-d's plan and right to judge us upon review after physical death, as insignificant.
I doubt He appreciates that.
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T
apologetics 101
your taking the bible out of context
Therefore, God exist
to back up my proof
the concept of context implies the existence of meaning
meaning comes from the giver of "meaning"
Therefore, God exist
I don't want to go to hell
Therefore, God exist
to back up my proof
only humans can think that far, past physical death, therefore humans are made in God's image
Therefore, God exist
your taking the bible out of context
Therefore, God exist
to back up my proof
the concept of context implies the existence of meaning
meaning comes from the giver of "meaning"
Therefore, God exist
I don't want to go to hell
Therefore, God exist
to back up my proof
only humans can think that far, past physical death, therefore humans are made in God's image
Therefore, God exist
So that "will" in our new nature is in operation for all born again believers consistently and continually?
Can it be inoperative even within the born again believer?
Just trying to understand the details of your statement.
Can it be inoperative even within the born again believer?
Just trying to understand the details of your statement.
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You know that every one that thinks OSAS is Ludicrous bases his OPINION about OSAS on PURE FICTION. You have know idea what OSAS actually teaches, because YOU ONLY REITERATE what you have been taught by a teacher that knows even less about the OSAS BELIEFS than you do. How about you Ask US what we honestly BELIEVE on a specific subject, and TRASH CAN WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT.
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13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. 14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(Ref: romans 12:1-8)
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.
EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.
CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18
IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.
30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)
9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and CAST INTO THE FIRE.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.
“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: FOR NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THAN WHEN WE (FIRST) BELIEVED.
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, AND ART DEAD. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
…”BECAUSE THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY, AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.”(isaiah 5:20-24)
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4God forbid: yea, LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar; as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings,
And mightest overcome when thou art judged...AMEN
A SERVANT OF GOD HAS A DUTY TO OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. SERVANTS WERE PREPARED FOR WORKS OF SERVICE FOR THE EDIFICATION OF THE CHURCH
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(Ref: romans 12:1-8)
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
WE ARE SERVANTS OF WHOM WE OBEY.
EVERY MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SERVANTS OF GOD WHOM THEY OBEY.
CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR OF HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH...eph 5:23, col 1:18
IF A BROTHER DELIBERATELY SINS, ARE WE NOT TO EXPEL HIM?
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore PUT AWAY FROM AMONG YOURSELVES THAT WICKED PERSON.
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE, THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.
30And CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKÑESS: THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.(Ref: matthèw 25:45-46)
9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and CAST INTO THE FIRE.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE.
“FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: FOR NOW IS OUR SALVATION NEARER THAN WHEN WE (FIRST) BELIEVED.
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, AND ART DEAD. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
…”BECAUSE THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY, AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.”(isaiah 5:20-24)
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4God forbid: yea, LET GOD BE TRUE, but every man a liar; as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings,
And mightest overcome when thou art judged...AMEN
Not by works of righteousness which we have done.
It means you are doing these good works not because of faith in Jesus.
These works of righteousness mentioned in Titus are in fact hypocrisies did by some like we can read in these verses
Matthew 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
WE NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
See we are originally created by God to do good works. so it is non sense to say that we don't need to do good works together having faith in Jesus.
Good works are necessary for salvation
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
APOSTLE PAUL EVEN REFUTED ABOUT HAVING FAITH BUT W/O LOVE
1 Cor. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
WHAT IS LOVE ASIDE BEING PRESENTED IN 1 COR. 13?
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
It means you are doing these good works not because of faith in Jesus.
These works of righteousness mentioned in Titus are in fact hypocrisies did by some like we can read in these verses
Matthew 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
WE NEED TO DO GOOD WORKS
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
See we are originally created by God to do good works. so it is non sense to say that we don't need to do good works together having faith in Jesus.
Good works are necessary for salvation
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
APOSTLE PAUL EVEN REFUTED ABOUT HAVING FAITH BUT W/O LOVE
1 Cor. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
WHAT IS LOVE ASIDE BEING PRESENTED IN 1 COR. 13?
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
AMEN, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with you: 1. What OSAS really is, 2. What we really Believe, and 3. the Scriptures that support OSAS. It is frustrating, to hear all the false statements about our Beliefs, with nobody really wanting to Ask Us what we really believe, and what Scriptures support our views.
First let me explain how it is that I came to see your post. I had you on my IGNORE LIST, which means that your posts never show up. Earlier today when it got too hot for yard work, I came in and checked Christian Chat. When I got done, I was going back outside to do more yard work, but I ran History Eraser, before I shut my PC down. I forgot to uncheck the options to erase Cookies. So when I came to Christian Chat late, before I go to bed, I did not notice that I was not Logged On, so without a Cookie, your post showed up and I was able to read it. Therefore I was able to unignore your posts, so when I Logged on, and the Cookie was reinstalled, and I am now able to answer your post. I believe the Holy Spirit was why I forgot to uncheck the "delete the Cookies" on History Eraser.
You have to understand that almost all of us that Believe in OSAS, are firm believers in interpreting the Bible LITERALLY, accept where there is an obvious Figurative Language being used. Here is an example of Figurative Language: "When we read in Psalm 91:4 that God will cover us "with his feathers," we are not supposed to literally picture God as having feathers. Again, this is figurative language."
With that in mind, we take the following Verses LITERALLY:
1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (CSBBible)
10 Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, since the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God.
13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
14 But the person without the Spirit does not receive what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
John 14:26 (HCSB)
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit—the Father will send Him in My name—will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you.
John 14:16 (CSBBible)
16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
John 10:27-30 (HCSB)
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”
Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
Matthew 25:1-13 (HCSB)
1 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the groom.
2 Five of them were foolish and five were sensible.
3 When the foolish took their lamps, they didn’t take olive oil with them.
4 But the sensible ones took oil in their flasks with their lamps.
5 Since the groom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6 “In the middle of the night there was a shout: ‘Here’s the groom! Come out to meet him.’
7 “Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps.
8 But the foolish ones said to the sensible ones, ‘Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.’
9 “The sensible ones answered, ‘No, there won’t be enough for us and for you. Go instead to those who sell, and buy oil for yourselves.’
10 “When they had gone to buy some, the groom arrived. Then those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.
11 “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
12 “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’
13 “Therefore be alert, because you don’t know either the day or the hour.
2 John 1:1-2 (HCSB)
1 The Elder: To the elect lady and her children: I love all of you in the truth—and not only I, but also all who have come to know the truth—
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.
John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me {those who are BORN AGAIN}, you will keep My commands.
1 John 2:3-5 (HCSB)
3 This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected.
This is how we know we are in Him:
Now there are a LOT more supportive verses for OSAS, however, that is enough for now. SALVATION happens in the MOMENT WE FIRST BELIEVED, and it is FREE GIFT. Many people do not realize it but SALVATION happens the moment we genuinely BELIEVE, while SANCTIFICATION is a life long STRUGGLE trying to become more and more like CHRIST. We do not think it is instructing that we HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS for SALVATION, but WILL WANT TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM. Some even think SALVATION and SANCTIFICATION are the same thing, and that's is where works Rightousness, a FALSE DOCTRINE comes from.
Our BELIEF is centered on BORN AGAIN, and the references of "KNOWING CHRIST" in the above verses is a reference to being Born Again. It happens when you reach an end of yourself, mourning over your UTTER SINFULNESS, and you willingly out of LOVE FOR HIM, you surrender to JESUS CHRIST. Salvation was one MOMENT, but THE LOVE for the LORD will LAST FOREVER. NO ONE CAN ENTER HEAVEN, without being Born Again, John 3:3-7. In the Parable of the GATES in Mat. 7, we believe it is ONLY talking about people who call themselves CHRISTIANS. The MANY go through the WRONG GATE, and only genuinely Born Again Christians enter the Narrow Gate and it says ONLY A FEW FIND IT.
God is telling me I need to end this, before it gets too long. I thank you for giving me a Chance to set the OSAS record Straight. Notice how VASTLY DIFFERENT than what many have thought it was. I cannot resist, just one more portion of Scripture:
1 Peter 1:3-5 (HCSB)
3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
4 and into an inheritance that is imperishable, uncorrupted, and unfading, kept in heaven for you.
5 You are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
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