Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[Slayer]

Not only is this offensively insulting, it is also a straw man argument. Christians who reject the false Gospel of Calvinism do not have another "god" as you put it. They simply reject false doctrine and the "god" named John Calvin (whose beliefs trump Scripture as far as you are concerned).

Again, this is seriously offensive, insulting, and blasphemous. If you believe you have made any points for Calvinism through this garbage, you are greatly mistaken.

When someone resorts to such nonsense, what they are saying is that don't have a leg to stand on. I trust you will not continue in this vein since some may request that you be banned for offensive and meaningless nonsense.

You are saying I wo

Not only is this offensively insulting, it is also a straw man argument. Christians who reject the false Gospel of Calvinism do not have another "god" as you put it. They simply reject false doctrine and the "god" named John Calvin (whose beliefs trump Scripture as far as you are concerned).

Again, this is seriously offensive, insulting, and blasphemous. If you believe you have made any points for Calvinism through this garbage, you are greatly mistaken.

When someone resorts to such nonsense, what they are saying is that don't have a leg to stand on. I trust you will not continue in this vein since some may request that you be banned for offensive and meaningless nonsense.

We will just have to agree to disagree, the debate has been going for 500 years and nobody is any closer to a consensus. So the Church will remain divided over this question and we will never unite, because both positions describe a different God.

One version of God is He offered salvation to everyone but only some chose to accept His offer. The other God described chooses to save some and leave others in their sin. When we unpack the character of each of these descriptions of who God is and how He deals with us, we find very different Gods.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I agree with most of that except the elect have not all yet repented, some are yet to hear the Gospel and others are yet to be born. Then you have those who hear the gospel for years before they are converted, they are all elect but they don't receive eternal life until they repent and that could be on their death bed with their final berth or as a young child.

Those two scriptures you Armininas keep referring to were spoken to and directed at the believers only. They were never spoken to or or directed at the reprobate who have 0.00% chance of repenting, so it wouldn't make sense to offer them something which God said was only for His elect.

God gave us his word - If he gave his word ONLY for the believer - no one would have been saved from the beginning because all were sinners and had 0.00% chance of repenting. Wonder why God says - Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God? All who hear the word of God have the opportunity to believe it or reject it. We hear the gospel of our salvation, we believe that gospel and we are sealed with the holy spirit - that is the process. That is/was God's plan and purpose for salvation.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Again, with all due respect I kindly decline your gods offer of salvation. Why? because he is not as powerful as my God. My God doesn't have wishes or desires, He only has commands so when He commands something to exist or happen it does exactly as commanded without ever failing.

I know all about the Arminian god, who has a long track record of failures. He's not very powerful, he is disappointed with his performance. He is begging people to love him but the vast majority mock him and reject his offer as foolishness, so he goes and has a good cry over it.
He has been trying to convince people to love him for 6000 years he has been rejected at least 150 billion times, so you can understand why he is so depressed, poor little god.

God's plan for someone receiving eternal life - belief in the only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. That is a command. So it sets up a choice for people - believe or don't believe. God does not give us belief [faith as a noun] to believe [faith as a verb] or else why command that we believe? And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. There is no difference between your God and mine . . . the difference lies in our perception of the scripture.

Do you believe that God set it up in the garden for mankind to fail? Or did Adam and Eve have a choice to make? God doesn't go around begging people to love him . . . He gave his love letter to mankind - filled with instructions for a blessed life, for receiving eternal life, lots of choices within the pages . . . We can accept his love or we can reject it . . . that is a just God. That is a God who is blessed - a God that receives the love freely given to him - We love him because he first loved us. What is love that is not freely given?

 

[Slayer]

God gave us his word - If he gave his word ONLY for the believer - no one would have been saved from the beginning because all were sinners and had 0.00% chance of repenting. Wonder why God says - Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God? All who hear the word of God have the opportunity to believe it or reject it. We hear the gospel of our salvation, we believe that gospel and we are sealed with the holy spirit - that is the process. That is/was God's plan and purpose for salvation.

While all of that sounds reasonable and even logical to some extent, it's not what the Bible teaches us. We have 40 odd verses which say that the choice to believe is a gift from God, which He only gives to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

The reason I believe this, is because I know some highly intelligent, reasonable, good people with high IQ's who reject the Gospel as foolishness. Many have pleaded with them and shared the Gospel in powerful ways, yet they continue to deny it as foolishness.

The only logical conclusion to the question why perfectly sane, highly intelligent reasonable people see the Gospel as foolishness is they don't have the gift of faith to believe it.

 

[Slayer]

God's plan for someone receiving eternal life - belief in the only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. That is a command. So it sets up a choice for people - believe or don't believe. God does not give us belief [faith as a noun] to believe [faith as a verb] or else why command that we believe? And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. There is no difference between your God and mine . . . the difference lies in our perception of the scripture.

Do you believe that God set it up in the garden for mankind to fail? Or did Adam and Eve have a choice to make? God doesn't go around begging people to love him . . . He gave his love letter to mankind - filled with instructions for a blessed life, for receiving eternal life, lots of choices within the pages . . . We can accept his love or we can reject it . . . that is a just God. That is a God who is blessed - a God that receives the love freely given to him - We love him because he first loved us. What is love that is not freely given?

We ascribe all power and all decision making to God, including the decision to save some and leave others in their sins. Fallen man doesn't have the capacity to chose to believe, because it's foolishness to him so he would never give his life over to a God he doesn't believe in.

The command to believe goes out to all mankind but only the elect will respond by believing and it will always by foolishness to the reprobate until they die.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Arminians find the Scriptures describing both the initial act of faith in Christ, "whereby the relationship is effected, and the persevering faith in Him whereby the relationship is sustained.

Calvinistic Cristians believe Jesus' death and resurrection makes it possible for believers to attain forgiveness for sin and reconciliation with God through the atonement. Reformed Protestants generally subscribe to a particular view of the atonement called substitutionary atonement, which explains Christ's death as a sacrificial payment for sin. Christ is believed to have died in place of the believer, who is accounted righteous as a result of this sacrificial payment.

I have found some truth in both camps. Justification is possible only for a person who has received Messiah into their life. Once a person has done this their life will reflect what we know as the Law of Elohim. The Law after Messiah has become not a law or book of judgement against the believer with condemnation. The Law has become a life giving spirit and no longer law it is instruction. Why would the Apostles call it Holy, Good for correction, and reproof in righteousness?

Calvinist theology also teaches that doctrine of self revelation. Though Elohim can reveal through scripture many truths. It is always explained through study and implementation of said instructions.
Because we have fallen away from sound teaching of scriptural truths it is evident today in the lives of various believers that they have been taught it is evil to guard the commands of Elohim.
This is how we can know we are redeemed and hoping for the correct things namely a certain Hope of Salvation to come.

The Calvinist fails at this simple point. We are to confirm the Law, (Romans 3) if we are saved. No we are not to keep the law in order to be saved or to Hope for salvation. If we are saved we will guard the instruction and make it our way of life. This simple truth has been slandered for centuries now and no wonder it has not been taught. Most have been teaching that the law is done away with or is perishing. What is dieing is the vain tradition of men like Calvinism.

 

[notuptome]

While all of that sounds reasonable and even logical to some extent, it's not what the Bible teaches us. We have 40 odd verses which say that the choice to believe is a gift from God, which He only gives to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

The reason I believe this, is because I know some highly intelligent, reasonable, good people with high IQ's who reject the Gospel as foolishness. Many have pleaded with them and shared the Gospel in powerful ways, yet they continue to deny it as foolishness.

The only logical conclusion to the question why perfectly sane, highly intelligent reasonable people see the Gospel as foolishness is they don't have the gift of faith to believe it.

So your experience is superior to the word of God? I know the heartbreak of witnessing to souls that are dear to us which simply out of the hardness of their heart refuse to receive the goodness of God. Perhaps God needs for us to have the same burden for souls we do not hold so dear and that is why we witness the kind of situation to which you allude.

We must interpret Gods word based on what God has declared and not by how we wish it to be. God has declared that some choose to reject. Even with all the goodness of God in full view they choose to reject to gospel message. Some are very intelligent and knowledgeable people. this of course make no sense to us.

Pretty weak to base your theology on experience that contradicts Gods character. The 40 odd verses which you interpret to make the choice to believe a gift from God does not preclude God from making the choice available to all. Calvinism simply overstates their case. The character of God precludes God from creating men just to condemn them. You make the severity of God cloaked as sovereignty as of more effect than the goodness of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

While all of that sounds reasonable and even logical to some extent, it's not what the Bible teaches us. We have 40 odd verses which say that the choice to believe is a gift from God, which He only gives to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

The reason I believe this, is because I know some highly intelligent, reasonable, good people with high IQ's who reject the Gospel as foolishness. Many have pleaded with them and shared the Gospel in powerful ways, yet they continue to deny it as foolishness.

The only logical conclusion to the question why perfectly sane, highly intelligent reasonable people see the Gospel as foolishness is they don't have the gift of faith to believe it.

Hmmm....interesting, I know several lawyers, doctors, scientists, teachers, many with what would seem very high IQ's who are are all firm believers.

I know of one scientist who actually was an unbeliever/agnostic who was persuaded initially by intelligent design and went on to believe the gospel after being presented with ontological arguments for the existence of God and then from there realized his sinful state.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One version of God is He offered salvation to everyone but only some chose to accept His offer. The other God described chooses to save some and leave others in their sin.

When are you and other Calvinists ever going to learn that God DOES NOT elect (choose) some for salvation and others for damnation?

That a is DAMNABLE DOCTRINE which originates with Satan. The whole tenor of the Gospel refutes that. And the recorded words of Christ refute that. Now pay close attention to just this one verse of Scripture (John 3:17) and repent of your false doctrine.

New International Version
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

New Living Translation
God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

English Standard Version
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

New American Standard Bible
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

King James Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

International Standard Version
Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

NET Bible
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God did not send his Son into the world that he would condemn the world, but that he would give life to the world by him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

King James 2000 Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

American King James Version
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

American Standard Version
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.

Darby Bible Translation
For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.

English Revised Version
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

Webster's Bible Translation
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.

Weymouth New Testament
For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

World English Bible
For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Young's Literal Translation
For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[peacefulbeliever]

While all of that sounds reasonable and even logical to some extent, it's not what the Bible teaches us. We have 40 odd verses which say that the choice to believe is a gift from God, which He only gives to those He chose before the foundation of the world.

The reason I believe this, is because I know some highly intelligent, reasonable, good people with high IQ's who reject the Gospel as foolishness. Many have pleaded with them and shared the Gospel in powerful ways, yet they continue to deny it as foolishness.

The only logical conclusion to the question why perfectly sane, highly intelligent reasonable people see the Gospel as foolishness is they don't have the gift of faith to believe it.

Wonder how many verses there are that say we must believe in Jesus Christ? The choice we have is to remain in sin or believe in Jesus Christ - the choice is NOT a gift from God and only given to a few. The choice is set before everyone. Doesn't matter how intelligent you may think you are . . . it's really quite simple - you hear the gospel and you either believe it or remain in your sin.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

We ascribe all power and all decision making to God, including the decision to save some and leave others in their sins. Fallen man doesn't have the capacity to chose to believe, because it's foolishness to him so he would never give his life over to a God he doesn't believe in.

The command to believe goes out to all mankind but only the elect will respond by believing and it will always by foolishness to the reprobate until they die.

Well, wonder why God tells us that faith comes from hearing and hearing his word? We may have a fallen nature but we do have the capacity to reason, that's why God gave us a mind! The decision to save some and not others would make God a respecter of persons - you, you, you can be saved but you, you, you, cannot. Upon hearing the word, a person can make a logical choice - does one believe what he hears, then believes in Jesus Christ or does one hear and reject what he hears - God sets that forth for all. God does not make people's decisions for them.

So those people who make the decision to believe in Jesus Christ really didn't make the decision but God made it for them?

 

[Slayer]

So your experience is superior to the word of God? I know the heartbreak of witnessing to souls that are dear to us which simply out of the hardness of their heart refuse to receive the goodness of God. Perhaps God needs for us to have the same burden for souls we do not hold so dear and that is why we witness the kind of situation to which you allude.

We must interpret Gods word based on what God has declared and not by how we wish it to be. God has declared that some choose to reject. Even with all the goodness of God in full view they choose to reject to gospel message. Some are very intelligent and knowledgeable people. this of course make no sense to us.

Pretty weak to base your theology on experience that contradicts Gods character. The 40 odd verses which you interpret to make the choice to believe a gift from God does not preclude God from making the choice available to all. Calvinism simply overstates their case. The character of God precludes God from creating men just to condemn them. You make the severity of God cloaked as sovereignty as of more effect than the goodness of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

None of us should ever pretend to understand God, because the simple truth is nobody understands Him. He ways are infinitely higher than our fallen, sinful and wicked ways. Our minds are corrupt, so it's impossible to understands God's ways with a corrupt and wicked mind.

So we are wasting our time pretending to know why He does what He does, the scriptures are too deep and too hard to understand. Our pastor said, we can study scripture all day every day for the rest of our lives and they will still remain mysterious. He said to watch out for those who claim to have figured them out, as they are deceived. We will all go to the grave and scripture will remain mysterious.

This is why we just take the scriptures literally, that's as close as we can get to understanding the mystery of scripture. As soon as we start adding or taking away, we go off into uncharted waters and we quickly become lost in our own foolishness.

Our pastor told us that we don't need to understand the Bible to be saved, all we need to do is believe in Christ and we are 100% guaranteed to be saved. So the whole argument of do we choose God or does He choose us is irrelevant to a believer.

 

[Slayer]

Well, wonder why God tells us that faith comes from hearing and hearing his word? We may have a fallen nature but we do have the capacity to reason, that's why God gave us a mind! The decision to save some and not others would make God a respecter of persons - you, you, you can be saved but you, you, you, cannot. Upon hearing the word, a person can make a logical choice - does one believe what he hears, then believes in Jesus Christ or does one hear and reject what he hears - God sets that forth for all. God does not make people's decisions for them.

So those people who make the decision to believe in Jesus Christ really didn't make the decision but God made it for them?

This still doesn't answer why the smartest people in the world all reject the Gospel as foolishness. The vast majority of us Christians are of very low intellect and low IQ, God usually leaves the smart people in their sin so they can never come to faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but only us foolish sheep will believe it, the smart people reject it. 99% of people in Churches are of very low intellect, we just follow our pastor using simple faith. God has made it impossible for intelligent people to believe.

 

[John146]

This still doesn't answer why the smartest people in the world all reject the Gospel as foolishness. The vast majority of us Christians are of very low intellect and low IQ, God usually leaves the smart people in their sin so they can never come to faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but only us foolish sheep will believe it, the smart people reject it. 99% of people in Churches are of very low intellect, we just follow our pastor using simple faith. God has made it impossible for intelligent people to believe.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Slayer]

Hmmm....interesting, I know several lawyers, doctors, scientists, teachers, many with what would seem very high IQ's who are are all firm believers.

I know of one scientist who actually was an unbeliever/agnostic who was persuaded initially by intelligent design and went on to believe the gospel after being presented with ontological arguments for the existence of God and then from there realized his sinful state.

I didn't say that God doesn't save any highly intelligent person, I said it's very very rare. The vast majority of Christians are of low intellect, we are called sheep in the Bible ans we know sheep are quite dumb, God doesn't want smarties in His Kingdom. He wants simple followers and not leaders.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This still doesn't answer why the smartest people in the world all reject the Gospel as foolishness. The vast majority of us Christians are of very low intellect and low IQ, God usually leaves the smart people in their sin so they can never come to faith.

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel but only us foolish sheep will believe it, the smart people reject it. 99% of people in Churches are of very low intellect, we just follow our pastor using simple faith. God has made it impossible for intelligent people to believe.

WHAAAT? Your opinion of Christians is really low . . . There are some VERY intelligent people who have heard the gospel and choose to believe it - what does IQ have to do with anything? God only chooses those of very low intellect and low IQ to serve him???? WOW!
Hilarious!!!!

 

[Slayer]

When are you and other Calvinists ever going to learn that God DOES NOT elect (choose) some for salvation and others for damnation?

That a is DAMNABLE DOCTRINE which originates with Satan. The whole tenor of the Gospel refutes that. And the recorded words of Christ refute that. Now pay close attention to just this one verse of Scripture (John 3:17) and repent of your false doctrine.

New International Version
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

New Living Translation
God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.

English Standard Version
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

New American Standard Bible
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

King James Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

International Standard Version
Because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

NET Bible
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God did not send his Son into the world that he would condemn the world, but that he would give life to the world by him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but to save the world.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

King James 2000 Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

American King James Version
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

American Standard Version
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him.

Darby Bible Translation
For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him.

English Revised Version
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

Webster's Bible Translation
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.

Weymouth New Testament
For God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

World English Bible
For God didn't send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.

Young's Literal Translation
For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

If we are to take the word "World" in the context of the above verse literally, it would mean that God failed in His mission to save the world. We refuse to believe in a God who fails in anything. Everything God has revealed about Himself suggests that God never fails in anything period.

This is we the two views clash, one suggests that God desires to save everyone and the other suggests that God saves every single person whom He wants to. We believe that God fulfills every one of His desires, we also believe that everything is exactly as God preordained it to be.
Nothing happens outside of Gods will, so salvation is absolutely by His will and so is every other thing that happens in the universe. He is sovereign over every hair which falls from our head.

 

[Slayer]

WHAAAT? Your opinion of Christians is really low . . . There are some VERY intelligent people who have heard the gospel and choose to believe it - what does IQ have to do with anything? God only chooses those of very low intellect and low IQ to serve him???? WOW!
Hilarious!!!!

I am pointing out the undeniable fact that the vast majority of Christians are of a very low intellect. God hides the truth from the intelligent and wise and He reveals it to those who are simple like sheep, who just follow and never question anything.

The reason we have less than 0.1% intelligent people in the Church is the Gospel is foolishness and only those if I can use the word dumb will accept it, because as soon as an intelligent person looks at the Gospel with his high IQ&intelligent mind He quickly realizes that it's foolish and he mocks it and dismisses it as fit for fools only.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If we are to take the word "World" in the context of the above verse literally, it would mean that God failed in His mission to save the world. We refuse to believe in a God who fails in anything. Everything God has revealed about Himself suggests that God never fails in anything period.

God did not FAIL at anything . . . mankind is the one who fails. God sent his Son so that THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM shall have everlasting life. He didn't fail because those who believe in Jesus Christ and believe that God raised him from the dead HAVE eternal life. It is man's choice to believe or reject the gospel . . .

This is we the two views clash, one suggests that God desires to save everyone and the other suggests that God saves every single person whom He wants to. We believe that God fulfills every one of His desires, we also believe that everything is exactly as God preordained it to be.
Nothing happens outside of Gods will, so salvation is absolutely by His will and so is every other thing that happens in the universe. He is sovereign over every hair which falls from our head.

God does desire that all men be saved and if he controlled us - then all men would be saved but he set before us his plan of salvation and that plan of salvation requires making a choice - to believe or to reject. God preordained that his Son would die for the redemption of mankind and He set up the stipulation that one must believe in Jesus Christ in order to receive that redemption . . . that is what He preordained and predestined and that is surely what will come to pass - those who believe in Jesus Christ, eternal life - those who reject Jesus Christ, condemnation.

 

[LPT]

seems this thread is Calvinism vs Arminianism vs Jesus, the last one is the correct one...