OSAS= House Built on Sand

[UnderGrace]

Who told you that you can not become unjustified after you have been justified? Who said you can not become guilty again after you have been forgiven? Do you have chapter and verse for this? Here is chapter and verse where Jesus himself said the Father will make the forgiven person accountable for his debt all over again in the kingdom of heaven. Just read the emboldened parts, then read whatever you want in between if you think I'm wrong about this:


23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” - Matthew 18:23-35

See it? The debt really was forgiven, but then it was reinstated. This is how it is in the kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus said his Father will do to you and I. How does that even remotely resemble a 'once saved always saved' doctrine? It doesn't, of course. The way you stay forgiven is stay in God's forgiveness. The presently believing person is in God's forgiveness. The person who stops believing removes himself from God's forgiveness.

Oh Ralphie, read the parable carefully. Jesus was talking to Jews

First of all is the ruler/king Jewish?

Not likely since the Jews were not allowed to torture their servants.

This parable is about the limited ability of the law and pointing forward to the gentiles as part of the new covenant and so much more.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

It will always remain an anomaly, a strange and mysterious motive, behind the cause for anyone who claims the name of Christ as their savior, to insist repeatedly that they are not truly and eternally his. That they insist, repeatedly, to anyone who shall listen or read, that they are conditionally saved and at any moment can do something that will send them back the way they came. Back to being dead in their sins, condemned, un-redeemed, un-saved, the un-state of being a former saved soul.

Imagine the stress of living like that. Thinking just one human misstep and they're damned again.

 

[justpassinthrough]

So then someone is no longer justified has their sins imputed back to them, and the judgement and decree of God that the person was declared innocent and the payment was paid in full is now overturned.

That's exactly right.


32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Your putting words into peoples posts as you do at other sites where I remember you from confirms who you are.
Thank you for that.

The is only one Gospel.

The Gospel of the kingdom of God.

The Gospel of God’s grace.



JPT

 

[UnderGrace]

It will always remain an anomaly, a strange and mysterious motive, behind the cause for anyone who claims the name of Christ as their savior, to insist repeatedly that they are not truly and eternally his. That they insist, repeatedly, to anyone who shall listen or read, that they are conditionally saved and at any moment can do something that will send them back the way they came. Back to being dead in their sins, condemned, un-redeemed, un-saved, the un-state of being a former saved soul.

Imagine the stress of living like that. Thinking just one human misstep and they're damned again.

I agree, they create a very fickle God.

What is worse is to promote this false teaching and bring others under its bondage.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Imagine the stress of living like that. Thinking just one human misstep and they're damned again.

Those are your words.


The Lord has given us a way to have our sins forgiven, if we should sin.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9




JPT

 

[seed_time_harvest]

The letter written to Hebrews teaches opposite to what you have written here.

As well, keeping yourself saved requires perfection which you do not have.

In John 3:16 you would do well to know that "whoever believes" is a nominative present participle portraying a single moment of believing and not a continuous one.
Meaning eternal life is immediately received when one believes in the Christ as Saviour.

As well, according to scripture a continuous and perfect state of believing in Christ is not possible in our fallen state, since this would necessitate sinless perfection. Every sin that a believer commits is reflective of some degree of unbelief.

Therefore, you have placed yourself in an impossible position of attaining salvation/eternal life based on your own imperfect ability to maintain belief perfectly.

And you have made belief an ongoing work which is contrary to the gospel of grace.

Now that was well spoken!

 

[UnderGrace]

Now that was well spoken!

A topic I am passionate about having suffered for a short time under this false teaching,

All glory to God who shows us His mercies and truth each day.

Those whom He sets free are free indeed.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

I agree, they create a very fickle God.

What is worse is to promote this false teaching and bring others under its bondage.

Let us pray they do not accomplish that goal. Defeat the enemy wherever we find him.
Such false teachings aren't of God.Because of that I don't think God would ever let sincere open hearts succumb to such falsehoods when they are seeking to find their way to Christ.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Those are your words.


The Lord has given us a way to have our sins forgiven, if we should sin.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9




JPT

I believe that that scripture Is for those that are not reborn.
Once the person Is reborn their spirit was created new and IN JESUS and their spirit Is sealed.

JESUS died only once and HIS sacrifice was accepted,payment for our sin In full.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

That's exactly right.


32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35



JPT

JESUS Is the WORD of GOD and not the word of a man.

 

[UnderGrace]

That's exactly right.


32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35



JPT

This parable is Not about loosing one's salvation and God returning the debt of sin in the new covenant
The parable is about the insufficiency of the law.
The ruler had his servant tortured at the end as a form of debt repayment, this was forbidden under Jewish law so then the ruler was not a Jew, therefore not analogous to God.
If you think the debt can be returned you are living under the old covenant

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yup. But you didn't address the questions. Since it was sin that separated the younger son from the father, did the older son's sin separate him from the father as well? Unless you are saying that jealousy, self-righteousness, and pride aren't sins. We DO have a record of the younger son repenting and going into the feast.

We DO NOT have a record of the older son repenting and going to the feast.

Maybe that pride thing is a MUCH stronger sin to overcome than lust and drunkenness.

Interesting that the son who repented was a portrayal of the publicans and sinners the pharisees and scribes murmured against (Luke 15:2) and the prideful, unrepentant son was a portrayal of the pharisees and scribes Jesus was speaking to (Luke 15:3).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

'Once saved always saved' people keep forgetting that the parable of the Prodigal son can't be used to show that you can't lose your salvation. According to their own doctrine, because he left, he was never really saved to begin with, yet they use his leaving and coming back to show you can't lose your salvation and will always remain a son.

Where does it state that he was no longer a son of the father?

In Luke 15:15 we see that he joined himself to a citizen of the far country but he does not refer to himself as a son of that citizen.

In fact, in Luke 15:16 he still considers himself the son of his father.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus teaches His disciples what it takes to restore a person who wanders away and becomes lost: Repentance.

A Christian who wanders away from the truth, from the Lord, has become lost.

Very simple.

Is someone who is lost, facing eternal life or eternal death?

There is nothing hidden, it's all right here for all to see.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

A Christian who becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance: No longer justified [righteous before God]

What the parables reveal is the willingness and the ability of the Father and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to keep the born again one safe from the eternal death you seem to believe the born again one has not been delivered from.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost.

The born again believer who is in a "lost" state is diligently sought after until found, is placed on the shoulder of the shepherd, and is carried back to the fold.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That doesn't mean that someone forever enters into unending life - the race doesn't end at the starting line - it means they have received the surety, or down payment, that guarantees they will receive the full inheritance if they continue in the faith.

You refer to the arrabōn (the earnest of the Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5) and the earnest of our inheritance (Eph 1:14)).

Please show from the context that it is ever stated the arrabōn is ever taken away or that it is only received "if they continue in the faith"

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You refer to the arrabōn (the earnest of the Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5) and the earnest of our inheritance (Eph 1:14)).

Please show from the context that it is ever stated the arrabōn is ever taken away or that it is only received "if they continue in the faith"

The holy spirit only abides in our hearts through faith. GOD is long suffering, but he does not endure forever those who deny him through unbelief.

And do not grieve the holy spirit of GOD in which you are sealed into a day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30​

​

if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 2 Timothy 2:12​

​

They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny him, because they are detestable and disobedient, and unfit for every good deed. Titus 1:16​

​

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:3-5​

​

Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear. For if GOD did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Romans 11:20-21​

 

[preston39]

Jesus teaches His disciples what it takes to restore a person who wanders away and becomes lost: Repentance.

A Christian who wanders away from the truth, from the Lord, has become lost.
Very simple.
Is someone who is lost, facing eternal life or eternal death?
There is nothing hidden, it's all right here for all to see.
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7
likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
A Christian who becomes lost is a sinner in need of repentance: No longer justified [righteous before God] Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• will save a soul from death

A Christian who becomes lost is in danger of eternal death unless he repents.

A Christian who is in a "lost" state, is not reconciled to God, and is no longer justified: They are lost......JPT

j...,
Just as The Bible says and respective of G-d's intent for us to receive eternal salvation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The holy spirit only abides in our hearts through faith. GOD is long suffering, but he does not endure forever those who deny him through unbelief.

And do not grieve the holy spirit of GOD in which you are sealed into a day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30​

​

if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; 2 Timothy 2:12​

​

They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny him, because they are detestable and disobedient, and unfit for every good deed. Titus 1:16​

​

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 1:3-5​

​

Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be highminded, but fear. For if GOD did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Romans 11:20-21​

I asked you to show FROM THE CONTEXT where is it stated that the arrabōn is ever taken away or that it is only received "if they continue in the faith".

I even provided the verses wherein arrabōn is used — 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14.

You go outside the context, post unrelated verses with no explanation as to how they relate to 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14, and have proven nothing.

 

[lightbearer]

In John 3:16 you would do well to know that "whoever believes" is a nominative present participle portraying a single moment of believing and not a continuous one.

No it does not. The Nominative being a verbal noun implies a state of being. It being a participle (a verbal noun) that lacks a particle in the clause; -ing should be suffixed to it. Implying an on going process not a single moment of believing but a state of believing. Believing becomes who we are in Christ through Christ. That is the point of it all.

Meaning eternal life is immediately received when one believes in the Christ as Saviour.

Paul did not think that in respect to the prize.
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
(1Co 9:24-27 KJV)

However John speaks of life eternal and eternal life. There is a difference. John 3:16 speaks of life eternal and John 17: 3 speaks of eternal life. Without eternal life you will not see life eternal.

As well, according to scripture a continuous and perfect state of believing in Christ is not possible in our fallen state,

Who commits sin is a servant to sin. And The Servant (sinner) shall not abide in the house forever but the SON forever. And if the Son shall make you free we are indeed.
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled (crammed; filled to the uttermost) in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Who Himself offered up our sins in His ... body on the tree, in order that we, being dead (separated from) to sins, should live to righteousness: by Whose stripes ye were healed.


(Rom 6:1-4; 8:2-4; 1Pe 2:24)