Exactly how I feel...I don't see why people need to keep bringing up this topic when its pretty clear!
If homosexuality is a sin, then why didn't Jesus say anything about it?
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Exactly how I feel...I don't see why people need to keep bringing up this topic when its pretty clear!
I wonder this, too, sometimes. I have problems with my relationship with food. I think that it is similar to homosexuality in that it is an issue of appetite. My appetite for food and my appetite for sex are both natural God-given appetites that my carnal self can use wrongly. God gave me an appetite for food because I need it for energy, yet I eat more food than is necessary for my health and choose foods that are actually bad for my health and continue to eat them because it is pleasurable. In the same way, I struggled with my sexual appetite before marriage. God intended it to be a form of intimacy with my husband, but I wanted to feed it before marriage. I praise God that I am now married and my husband and I can feed that appetite to our hearts' content.
I agree...its a lot more than that! Its one thing for them to not be bullied but why is that not applied to EVERYONE then? There are no special laws protecting Christians from persecution!!
Homosexuality is continuous rebellion against God so it can't be compared to sins like anger which can happen in a moment when you let your guard down and you quickly repent as soon as you realize that you have sinned. Homosexuality is to perpetual sin at every moment.
The sin of homosexuality bares the evidence that the person is not saved, because the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a temple that is perpetually defiled with sin. It means that the person has not trusted God to change them.
We have a man in our Church who was a homosexual for most of his life until he was converted at the age of 31 he is now married and has two children. He has a powerful testimony of how God can change a person's life if they put their trust in Him.
Same sex attraction is "temptation" not a sin. It's the act of homosexuality itself that is a sin. Like a man who gave up that lifestyle may still have a same sex temptation but he's not sinning because he's done with the lifestyle. I don't remember reading it's a perpetual sin in every moment in the bible.
Well if you're going off 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 we're all in big trouble at one point or another. Aside from that I have no clue where the holy spirit can or can't dwell.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Temptation is always external to the person.
When external temptation becomes internal attraction is it a sin then?
There seems so be this idea that as long as I do not act on my desires/lusts than I am only tempted and not being sinful, yet scripture teaches otherwise.
If a person is given over to burn in his lust one for another, that sounds like an ongoing thing to me. I wasn't referring to anyone who may have experienced thoughts or temptation to commit homosexual activity.
Would you be able to point us to any scriptures which support this view that we sin if we are internally attracted to someone. I find my eyes automatically focusing on beautiful women as I drive along in my car, but I have to make a deliberate effort to look away.
By the time I look away I have already committed the sin of admiring the beauty of the woman so have I sinned.
I mean we are talking about a second or two, my old sinful nature is drawn towards sin but I fight it all the time. I hope that I'm forgiven for the short moments where I failed to gain full control of my members.
I think Paul described our condition in Romans 7:23 when He said, "but I see another law in my members, Waring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
It sounds like we are in a perpetual war against the law of sin which is in our members and the war will continue until we die.
Jesus never said anything about slavery either. (I'm sure there are also other issues that Jesus did not address directly during the time of His bodily incarnation here on earth.) But that does not mean that He affirmed* slavery. That does not mean He believed that certain men may take slaves. That does not mean that He agreed with the mistreatment of slaves by masters in a culture where slavery was permitted. That does not mean that He believed that some races or classes of men are below other races or classes of men; because they were designed to be that way by God. All the above conclusions are false.
The fact is slavery is a social injustice according to modern understandings and even according to the Bible. Slavery is more than social injustice it is against the very design of human beings as recorded in the Bible itself. All humans whether they be from any people group of the world or from any economic background are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27). I am sure Jesus came to affirm this idea because He said that He came not to destroy the Old Testament but to fulfil it (Matthew 5:17-18). We can conclude that Jesus affirmed Genesis 1:26-27 in His acceptance of disciples from different backgrounds, in His conversation with the woman from Samaria (John 4) and even His commission to spread His Gospel to the whole world (Matthew 28:18-20). If He rejected the idea that humans were made in God's image He would have rejected some of His disciples, He would have agreed with the Samaritan woman when she brought out the issues between Jews and Samaritans and He would tell His disciples to preach the Gospel only to selected nations. We can see examples of this in other passages as well.
The same goes for homosexuality. Yes, Jesus never spoke about it. But that does not mean that we can conclude that Jesus affirmed homosexual lifestyle just because He was silent about it. Again, why would He go against the very Scriptures He came to fulfil? Genesis 1:26-28 also affirms that God designed men and women to have only one sexual orientation for the purpose of having progeny. If Jesus supported verses 26 on the issue of humans being made in the image of God then naturally we may conclude that He also agreed with verse 27 (Matthew 19:4).
Some "Christian" groups may say that this answer is homophobic or say that I am homophobic. But the fact is that the argument that if Jesus never spoke about (either against or for) homosexuality then Christians should also not say anything about it is a dishonest argument*. Also, another fact is that the argument that if Jesus never spoke about homosexuality then Christians should allow, if not affirm it, in their Christian communities and churches is also a dishonest argument. The truth is that Jesus came to fulfil the Old Testament not to reinterpret it according to human whims.
The argument that if Jesus never spoke about homosexuality then Christians should also not say anything about it or, at least, allow it in their communities and churches is true if you reject the authority of the Bible and the authenticity of Jesus of the Gospels. This happens in liberal theology and/or post-modern theology. So a lot of confusion will be avoided if the one who argues for such things from the Bible if he or she states where they stand on the authority of the Bible and the historicity of Jesus in the New Testament. Either they are confused or misguided Christians or simply lost who need Biblical guidance OR they are of the liberal or post-modern camp who still claim the label of "Christian". The second group also needs the Gospel!
If I may be allowed to argue the same way that the other person argues then let me state the following. I am sure Jesus was aware of the homosexual lifestyles and relationships of His time. But when He spoke about marriage and divorce (Matthew 5:31-32; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18) He never mentioned the validity of homosexual lifestyle. He used the terms such as husbands and wives that excludes any idea of homosexual lifestyle. Therefore, Jesus never affirmed homosexual lifestyle. (This is a much better argument when we take into account what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18; this also affirms the traditional notion of marriage).
My argument from Matthew 5:17-18 may sound weak to some but I assure you no other statement is needed from Jesus than this to show that He came to fulfil the Old Testament not to destroy it - what liberal, post-modern and similar theologies seem to be doing.
*affirm = accept as truth and therefore allowed for practice
*dishonest argument = intellectual dishonesty that is a result of ignoring facts, truths and proofs, this happens because of laziness or because of misinformation or because of lack of information or because of intent
The fact is slavery is a social injustice according to modern understandings and even according to the Bible. Slavery is more than social injustice it is against the very design of human beings as recorded in the Bible itself. All humans whether they be from any people group of the world or from any economic background are made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27). I am sure Jesus came to affirm this idea because He said that He came not to destroy the Old Testament but to fulfil it (Matthew 5:17-18). We can conclude that Jesus affirmed Genesis 1:26-27 in His acceptance of disciples from different backgrounds, in His conversation with the woman from Samaria (John 4) and even His commission to spread His Gospel to the whole world (Matthew 28:18-20). If He rejected the idea that humans were made in God's image He would have rejected some of His disciples, He would have agreed with the Samaritan woman when she brought out the issues between Jews and Samaritans and He would tell His disciples to preach the Gospel only to selected nations. We can see examples of this in other passages as well.
The same goes for homosexuality. Yes, Jesus never spoke about it. But that does not mean that we can conclude that Jesus affirmed homosexual lifestyle just because He was silent about it. Again, why would He go against the very Scriptures He came to fulfil? Genesis 1:26-28 also affirms that God designed men and women to have only one sexual orientation for the purpose of having progeny. If Jesus supported verses 26 on the issue of humans being made in the image of God then naturally we may conclude that He also agreed with verse 27 (Matthew 19:4).
Some "Christian" groups may say that this answer is homophobic or say that I am homophobic. But the fact is that the argument that if Jesus never spoke about (either against or for) homosexuality then Christians should also not say anything about it is a dishonest argument*. Also, another fact is that the argument that if Jesus never spoke about homosexuality then Christians should allow, if not affirm it, in their Christian communities and churches is also a dishonest argument. The truth is that Jesus came to fulfil the Old Testament not to reinterpret it according to human whims.
The argument that if Jesus never spoke about homosexuality then Christians should also not say anything about it or, at least, allow it in their communities and churches is true if you reject the authority of the Bible and the authenticity of Jesus of the Gospels. This happens in liberal theology and/or post-modern theology. So a lot of confusion will be avoided if the one who argues for such things from the Bible if he or she states where they stand on the authority of the Bible and the historicity of Jesus in the New Testament. Either they are confused or misguided Christians or simply lost who need Biblical guidance OR they are of the liberal or post-modern camp who still claim the label of "Christian". The second group also needs the Gospel!
If I may be allowed to argue the same way that the other person argues then let me state the following. I am sure Jesus was aware of the homosexual lifestyles and relationships of His time. But when He spoke about marriage and divorce (Matthew 5:31-32; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18) He never mentioned the validity of homosexual lifestyle. He used the terms such as husbands and wives that excludes any idea of homosexual lifestyle. Therefore, Jesus never affirmed homosexual lifestyle. (This is a much better argument when we take into account what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18; this also affirms the traditional notion of marriage).
My argument from Matthew 5:17-18 may sound weak to some but I assure you no other statement is needed from Jesus than this to show that He came to fulfil the Old Testament not to destroy it - what liberal, post-modern and similar theologies seem to be doing.
*affirm = accept as truth and therefore allowed for practice
*dishonest argument = intellectual dishonesty that is a result of ignoring facts, truths and proofs, this happens because of laziness or because of misinformation or because of lack of information or because of intent
U...,
Not scriptural....and makes no common sense.
G-d created us as a sinner...does that mean that we do not have to obtain forgiveness of our sins?, etc.
B...,
Not true.
You should study The Bible and this question would not have been presented.
Yes, the New Testament consistently says that if we reject grace and choose to live under the law of Moses we will be judged by that law. We will be found guilty.What about Matthew 25:14-30 the parable of the talents . Where Jesus told the believers that they would all be rewarded differently according to their deeds, when they get to heaven.
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things DONE IN THE BODY, according to what He has done, whether good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10)
“… and each one will receive His own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR.” (1 Corinthians 3:8)
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone ACCORDING TO HIS WORK.” (Revelation 22:12)
“… I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS.” (Revelation 2:23) So Jesus answered them and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brother or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or land, for My sake and the gospel’s, who shall not receive a HUNDREDFOLD now in this time … and in the age to come, eternal life.” (Mark 10:29-30)
Now remember not to jump to conclusions, without having the facts and humbly accept correction from your younger brother
The same rule of thumb applies to those going to hell, they will all receive Taylor made punishment as well. God is very fair, He never gives anyone more or less than they deserve.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Not sure how you are reading what I stated.
If we are created sinners by God with only compulsion to sin in all areas of life then we cannot be held accountable for any of our actions and sins. That is my point.
You do realize that the entire court system is based upon the belief that for the most part crime is a choice by the criminal.
There is no reason for a society to have laws unless there is a belief in the individual ability to choose.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Hi Slayer,
I was thinking of James 1:13-15 mostly.
To apprehend or notice the physical beauty of another may or may not be a temptation depending on the person.
It is when we internalize that temptation and it becomes a sexual/romantic attraction within our hearts where we desire or lust that it is no longer a temptation but sin.
Each of us has to know our own areas where temptation (which is eternal) can be internalized and then become sin and therefore be on guard.
I see Romans 7 as the old man where sin is inflamed by the law but the good news is by the grace of God where we can walk by the Spirit as described in Romans 8
Yea but someone may have sex before marriage over and over.... And lie over and over... And get angry over and over... And drink over and over.
Everyone perpetually sins. That doesn't really set them apart. How many times should you forgive someone?
the idea that one can sin over and over in the same sin is clearly 1. addiction 2. they have an issue where they need victory over it 3. thier relationship with God is not firmly rooted.
there is a big differnce from stumbling in sin and falling away from God.
If you are finding yourself over and over doing the same sexual sin then asking God to forgive then find yourself doing it again over and over, you are bound to it and need to get real with God and surrender to the Lord.
Yes I understand what you're saying but everyone struggles with some sort of addiction. Maybe some we stay away from and I know mine and stay away from what I can. But I can say I'm not going to get angry over and over but it's probably going to happen again. That doesn't really have to do with my salvation since I already know I'm saved but also that I should repent bc the behavior is wrong and want to please God.
But if we go to someone who is homosexual and say you're sinning or whatever they're not going to care anyways. Even worse we might actually be pulling them away from God. Wouldn't it make more sense to just preach the word of God and if they ask specifically about their lifestyle then addressing it in a kind way but letting them know it's a sin? Or even just letting them come to the conclusion themselves since they probably don't live under a rock and are aware of what Christians think? Is it really up to us to let everyone know their sin? I have a hard enough time keeping up with my own.
There's a big difference between the sins of a saved person and an unsaved person.
The saved person's past, present and all future sins have all been paid for. While the unsaved person will pay for everyone of theirs in hell if they aren't converted before they die.
The practicing homosexual has given himself over to sin, so he is sinning perpetually. Whereas the converted person fights sin as soon as it shows it's ugly head. Can you see the difference, one has surrendered to sin and the other is fighting it. So one loves it so much that they have given themselves over to serve the sin and the other is in a perpetual war with it.
I hope you can see the difference between the two types of people. The world only has two types of people, the believers and unbelievers.
This thread is ridiculous. Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore the Old Testament texts speak to the issue as well as the New Testament verses. It is called an abomination in both the Old and New Testaments.
Bible verses about homosexuality
http://www.livingout.org/the-bible-and-ssa
Genesis 19
Leviticus 18 & 20
Romans 1:18-32
I Corinthians 6:9, 10
I Timothy 1:8 to 10