U
UnderGrace
Guest
I am speaking out saving faith.
Some believe saving faith is a gift from God. I do not.
OSAS= House Built on Sand
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I am speaking out saving faith.
Some believe saving faith is a gift from God. I do not.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Interesting, the narrow gate is narrow and hard to find because of the difficulty of laying down our self-effort and recognizing there is nothing we can do to gain eternal life but believe that Jesus did it all.
Common lingo in North American culture is "are you saved" yet saved does not always refer to eternal life, in my culture we used the word saved frequently to mean being saved from harm in this life, saved/delivered from emotional turmoil etc.,
I think this way of speaking is more common in Mediterranean languages.
R
Ralph-
Guest
Yep. Once and only once.
Yep. The second you are born again you receive eternal life.
Of course eternal life is eternal. The question is, are you going to continue to possess the life that is eternal by continuing to believe?
And there is something wrong with a person having free will? Is God really that narcissistic that it is not ever allowed that anyone be able to do what they want apart from his will? The whole premise upon which Calvinism is based (and from whence 'once saved always saved' comes from) is terribly flawed.
See, your problem is you think 'once for all' means you can never ever lose the justification you get through Christ's sacrifice, when actually what it means in context is Christ's sacrifice does not need to be re-sacrificed.
"25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.26Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself." - Hebrews 9:25-26
"we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. " - Hebrews 10:10
"this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins " - Hebrews 10:12
Context, UG, context! Nothing there about never being able to lose the efficacy of the sacrifice. What is there is the efficacy of the one time sacrifice of Jesus never ends (like it did for the old covenant sacrifices). That's why we are exhorted to keep believing in it. It can't fail you.
We understand it the way it is taught in the Bible: The life God gives is a never ending life. And you have to keep believing in the sacrifice of Christ to continue possessing the life that never ends. New Covenant life isn't like old covenant life that lasted only as long as the priest on duty was around and doing his job correctly, and the right sacrifice was still burning, and until you sinned again. No, the life Jesus gives does not stop because of those things. That's why you can place your confidence in him and leave it there. Don't turn away from such a perfect and ever lasting sacrifice like the Galatians did.
What's this got to do with what I've been saying? I'm not saying continued salvation is conditioned on continued works. It is conditioned on continued believing.
Salvation that is conditioned on believing, not works, is hardly precarious. And God most certainly wants us there.
Amen. So don't leave that secure place. Stay in the household of God where the destroying angel won't get you when he passes over.
"he will see the blood on the top and sides of the door frame and will pass over that doorway, and he will not permit the destroyer to enter your houses and strike you down. " - Exodus 12:23
“Go at once and select the animals for your families and slaughter the Passover lamb. 22Take a bunch of hyssop, dip it into the blood in the basin and put some of the blood on the top and on both sides of the door frame. None of you shall go out of the door of your house until morning." - Exodus 12:21-22
You HAVE to stay in the house marked with the blood or else you will be destroyed. That house is Christ. You must stay in the household of Christ where God will not permit the destroyer to get you.
Yes, the devil loves salvation conditioned on WORKS. What he fears and despises is salvation conditioned on FAITH. He has no problem with a person working to earn salvation. What he can't stand is a person trusting in the blood Christ through the power of faith to receive salvation as a free gift. That defeats everything he accomplished in the garden.
So make self-effort (strive) to lay down self-effort? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
G75 ἀγωνίζομαι agonizomai (ag-o-nid'-zom-ai) v.
1. to struggle
2. (literally) to compete for a prize
3. (figuratively) to contend with an adversary
4. (genitive case) to endeavor to accomplish something
R
Ralph-
Guest
What part of 'sprang up quickly' do you not understand? Of course it had roots. Plants don't spring up without any roots at all.
The problem with the 2nd type of soil is it had no deep root, not no root at all. If it had no root at all it would not have sprang up and would be the first type of soil.
So are you saying that Paul wasn't talking about eternal salvation in 1 Timothy 4:16?
Since Scripture never contradicts itself, we need to determine what Paul means.
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
So -- according to this verse -- there are two things which we need to watch: (1) our testimony ("thyself") and (2) our doctrine ("the doctrine"). So what are we to save ourselves and others (if we are preaching and teaching) from:
1. The doctrines of devils (v 1) -- dietary restrictions and enforced celibacy are two examples given (there are many more connected with Gnosticism and Judaizers)
2. Profane and old wives fables (v 7) -- legends, myths, and apocryphal stories
3. Excessive involvement with sports and exercise (v 8)
This is not about eternal salvation, but sanctification.
Without holiness, no one will see the lord. There is no salvation apart from sanctification.
R
Ralph-
Guest
This is what Paul is driving at in 1 Timothy 4:16...
"1The word of the Lord came to me: 2“Son of man, speak to your people and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. 5Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. 6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’
7“Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die foratheir sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved." - Ezekiel 33:2-9
When the watchman warns the people and they listen, he not only saves himself but also those who listen. That's the point from the scriptures above that Paul is playing off of when he says this to Timothy:
14"Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." - 1 Timothy 4:16
"1The word of the Lord came to me: 2“Son of man, speak to your people and say to them: ‘When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head. 5Since they heard the sound of the trumpet but did not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own head. If they had heeded the warning, they would have saved themselves. 6But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’
7“Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die foratheir sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved." - Ezekiel 33:2-9
When the watchman warns the people and they listen, he not only saves himself but also those who listen. That's the point from the scriptures above that Paul is playing off of when he says this to Timothy:
14"Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." - 1 Timothy 4:16
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Ralph-
Guest
The parable of the Sower is all about salvation.
Denying what the scripture so plainly says, only exposes your darkened philosophy which can not grasp the simple and plain truth that Jesus taught.
Denying that Jesus taught the principle of receiving salvation by believing the Gospel is Heresy.
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13
The word or message that the Sower sows is the Gospel message, the only message which brings salvation.
Only those who believe the Gospel message will be saved.
Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
JPT
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Really and how did the people to whom Jesus was speaking know the Gospel message considering He had not even gone to the cross?
Do you think they had any idea of the what Jesus was going to do?
Scripture is understood in historical context first rather than made to fit our preconceived or indoctrinated mindset.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Are woman "saved" in childbearing, that is given eternal life?
1Timothy 2:15
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Jesus was talking to people under the law.
Makes complete sense, it does take effort and it is a struggle to lay down one's own devices (self-effort), or lay down the belief that one qualifies or can enter based on their own merit.
1 John 3:3
King James Version(KJV)
3.)And every man that hath this hope In him , purifieth himself even as he Is pure.
QUOTE="mailmandan, post: 3671223, member: 193497"]You are in error and obviously teach salvation by works and there is a reason for that (1 Corinthians 2:14). [/QUOTE]
1 Cor. 2:14. Ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ θεοῦ, μωρία γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐστίν, καὶ οὐ δύναται γνῶναι, ὅτι πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται·
14. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Regarding the word ψυχικὸσ, in the New Testament and other early Christian literature it never refers to a Christian; and James (James 3:15) parallels it with “earthly” and “demonic.”
Therefore, by covertly accusing me of being ψυχικὸσ, one is accusing me of being an unbeliever—if not a demoniac! This is a rather harsh accusation against a man who has successfully pioneered and served as the senior pastor of staunchly evangelical, theologically conservative churches—one of which was in the red-light district of a large port city that was internationally known for its grossly sinful debauchery! Indeed, the spiritual needs of the people were so great that we never closed our churches doors to them before midnight (seven days a week—including all holidays), and had people waiting in line for spiritual counseling as late as 2:30 in morning. I myself, as the senior pastor, went back to my study every night at midnight and spent the next two hours communing with God.
My education, intellect, and knowledge of the Scriptures may be far superior to yours, but that does not at all mean that I rely any less upon the Holy Spirit and His wisdom than does a man lacking the ability to read the Scriptures in the languages in which God gave them to us.
1 Cor. 2:14. Ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ θεοῦ, μωρία γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐστίν, καὶ οὐ δύναται γνῶναι, ὅτι πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται·
14. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Regarding the word ψυχικὸσ, in the New Testament and other early Christian literature it never refers to a Christian; and James (James 3:15) parallels it with “earthly” and “demonic.”
Therefore, by covertly accusing me of being ψυχικὸσ, one is accusing me of being an unbeliever—if not a demoniac! This is a rather harsh accusation against a man who has successfully pioneered and served as the senior pastor of staunchly evangelical, theologically conservative churches—one of which was in the red-light district of a large port city that was internationally known for its grossly sinful debauchery! Indeed, the spiritual needs of the people were so great that we never closed our churches doors to them before midnight (seven days a week—including all holidays), and had people waiting in line for spiritual counseling as late as 2:30 in morning. I myself, as the senior pastor, went back to my study every night at midnight and spent the next two hours communing with God.
My education, intellect, and knowledge of the Scriptures may be far superior to yours, but that does not at all mean that I rely any less upon the Holy Spirit and His wisdom than does a man lacking the ability to read the Scriptures in the languages in which God gave them to us.
If this were true, I believe that Jesus would have known about it, but the Scriptures clearly reveal that He did not!
As for Ephesians 2:8-10,
One of the first Bible passages that I memorized as a young Christian was Ephesians 2:8-9 in the King James Version,
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I heard and read this passage being quoted very many times and frequently quoted it myself when witnessing to non-Christians. I thought that I understood it just fine until I began studying the Apostle Paul, his missionary journeys, the messages that he preached, and his epistles.* Then I became more and more familiar with Paul and his goals and objectives as the Apostle to the Gentiles and the obstacles that he encountered and dealt with.
Circumcision was a very important part of the Old Testament covenant of Law that in the Jewish mind separated Jews from Gentiles. The earliest Christians were all Jews and Christianity was understood by them to be a sect of Judaism. Therefore it was very difficult for them to accept the idea that an uncircumcised Gentile could be a Christian no matter how much he believed in Jesus. Explaining this mystery to both the Jews and Gentiles was one of Paul’s major goals and objectives, and hence a major theme in his Epistles to the Romans, the Galatians, and the Ephesians.
When Paul wrote of “works” that he contrasted with grace and faith, he was always referring to the works of the Law, that is, the Old Testament covenant of Law as opposed to the New Testament covenant of grace:
Gal. 2:16. nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal. 3:2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
4. Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
5. So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Gal. 3:9. So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
Rom. 2:4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5. but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6. who will render to every man according to his works: (ASV)
Rom. 3:27. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
And compare the following:
Gal. 2:21. “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal. 5:4. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal. 5:11. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
Gal. 6:12. Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13. For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14. But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Rom. 9:30. What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
31. but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33. just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Therefore, the “works” that he wrote of in Eph. 2:9 were not the “good works” that Jesus taught one must perform to be justified and saved (Matt. 16:27, 25:34-46; Mark 10:17-30; Luke 10:25-37; John 5:28-29) or the good works that James taught one must perform to be justified and saved (James 2:14-26) or the good works that we read of in the faith chapter in the New Testament (Heb. 11), but works of the Law and circumcision in particular. (continued in the following post)
James, in his epistle, approached the matter from a very different perspective; that is, he vigorously taught that works are essential for ones justification and salvation, but he was not writing of circumcision or any other work of the Law, but exclusively the good works that Jesus commands us to perform.
When we carefully read Eph. 2:8-9 in the context of 8-16 (see below), we see (especially in verse 11, but also in the context), that Paul is explaining to the Christians in Ephesus that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised.
Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
When Eph. 2:8-9 is read apart from both the literary and historical context in which it was originally written, it can appear to teach precisely the opposite of what Jesus and James taught—a doctrine that was entirely foreign to the teaching of Paul and a doctrine that has nothing at all to do with Paul’s goal and objective of explaining to both the Jews and Gentiles the mystery that a Gentile could become a Christian without keeping the Law, specifically without being circumcised. (Paul used the word “circumcision”—in our English translations—30 times in 26 verses, and the word “circumcised” 11 times in 9 verses).
We read in the New Testament that both the grace by which we are saved and the faith through which we are saved are gifts from God, but in order to be saved, we must allow both the grace and the faith to work in our lives, and that includes performing the works that Jesus and His brother James taught we must perform to be justified and saved.
(All Scripture quotations are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
Eternal life is the gift which is granted with justification by grace through faith (see Rom 6:23). Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). It is not a gift but the result of the Gospel.
Evidently you failed to read and study Romans chapter 4.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:5)
So what did James have in mind?
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10)
These good works are ultimately works of the Holy Spirit, working in the believer, and what James was saying is if they are absent, then there was no genuine saving faith.