OSAS= House Built on Sand

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The race begins at the starting line with justification and ends at the finish line with glorification.

And is run lawfully via sanctification

 

[Grandpa]

I think I will retain the bible the way it is.

I don't even really like the newer versions like the NIV that much.


But at least the OP is open and honest in his wanting to change the bible to fit his works theology.

A lot of SDA's and Hebrew Roots "theologists" just try to change the definitions of the words that already there.


If any of you SDA's or Hebrew Roots want to know what the Real Bible says just ask and I'll post it for you.


If you are drowning and someone comes to save you do you submit to their power in saving you or do you accept their power in saving you?

Doesn't seem like much of a difference, does it? I don't have a problem with saying it either way. You just have to know the MEANING behind what you are talking about.

Lots of people try to take words and make them mean something other than what the bible intended. Why? To support their religion, mostly.

 

[posthuman]

If you are drowning and someone comes to save you do you submit to their power in saving you or do you accept their power in saving you?

a drowning person who doesn't know how to swim is often panicked and flailing around, and can endanger their would-be rescuer by their thrashing about. i've heard it advised that it can help to knock them unconscious first. better for both; it's easier to swim an unconscious person back to shore than someone unwittingly working against you.

but this popular 'pulling a drowning man out of the sea' isn't quite the picture the scripture paints. Christ pulls our literally lifeless corpse from the water and brings it to life. throwing a life preserver at a dead man doesn't save him; he is not going to swim towards it.

 

[preston39]

So here we have another who does not have faith that Jesus who saves us keeps us saved.
He believes He must help by his own works.
You keep trusting in yourself and you will end up in Hell.

S...,

Christ keeps us repented and righteous providing WE keep ourselves the same.

Your suggested understanding of..... works..... is not biblical.
Repenting, baptism, living righteous and maintaining such..... until the end..... are not works. They are commandments of G-d for us to follow in order to receive eternal salvation. Sacrifice for forgiveness is not available where sin is present.

Do not be misled by the new age religion interpretation of scriptures that does not meet the intent of G-d's word and has only been around the christian community since the moral and social revolution of the 1960's. No record of such belief before that era has been located so far in a current on going study.

 

[posthuman]

No record of such belief before that era has been located so far in a current on going study.

um . .

Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by Him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the Law of Moses. Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:​

“‘Look, you scoffers,​

be astounded and perish;​

for I am doing a work in your days,​

a work that you will not believe, ​

even if one tells it to you.’”​

(Acts 13:38-41)​

​

 

[PennEd]

Did you know Calvinism itself asserts that no one can know they are of the elect in this life?



That is why you should continue to believe in the finished work of Christ. The salvation and life he gives never ends like it did under the first covenant.

Who cares what Calvin says?

I care what Scripture says!

1 John 5:13 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, [a]and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[RickyZ]

i've heard it advised that it can help to knock them unconscious first.

In my 35 years as a firefighter/emt, I have never heard that.

But it might have helped on a number of occasions, and not just with drownings

and strangely enough it seems to be the tactic of many here at cc!

 

[UnderGrace]

The race begins at the starting line with justification and ends at the finish line with glorification.

I was thinking the same thing exactly, probably because that is what scripture states.

 

[UnderGrace]

Hey! UnderGrace... PTL!
Here is the answer to your question:
2Pet 2:20,21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse then the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after than had known it to turn away from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Now here is the holy commandment being talked about here:
1 Jn 3:19-23 "And hereby we know that we are of the truth and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not then we have confidence toward God and whatsoever we ask we receive of him because we keep his commandments and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment that we believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another as he gave us commandment.
Maranatha!

Thank you for the response, however I still do not see a numerical value for the length of time.

Yet I do know Jesus died for my sins 100%, past present and future, that is a number I can rely upon because I know the author.

 

[NayborBear]

Thank you, although I think the author of this thread is gone.

But I am glad that you set the matter straight.

It is an obvious agenda for sinless perfection or a works based salvation.

It seems obvious that there are people that "continually combine" a believer's "saving" of one's soul, which is NOT a "works based" salvation, with "overcoming the world", which is (one's) "spiritually based efforts", in which "rewards" are given and taken away, in (one's) "Spiritual perfecting", or "maturation, IN the Spirit!" HUGE difference!! Read, concerning the Parable of the Talents, for more information on this. For "this" is where "overcoming the world" as opposed to "enduring to the end", comes into play.

Just because, Jesus said, "I'll give you rest!" (sabbath, by the way), is NOT a "license" (although, it is "SEEN, AND USED", as one") in becoming "COMATOSE" at the "FOOT OF THE CROSS!" "These ones are seen "BY The Father IN Christ", as "babes!" Or? To use the Father's words, speaking "through Christ?" "WOE!" "To "those, who give suck!" "In those days!"

One's "soul" is saved! But? One's (how can I say) "Spiritual IDENTITY!!", HERE! "This says it better then I!" Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna(*"HERE", is where the Catholics got it wrong, in their "Trans-substantiation" doctrine/s concerning the taking of Holy Communion, or Sacraments!), and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
(* "this", is also what the "FATHER, IN CHRIST" "said", AND MEANT, to those people, John 6:46-66
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

As you can read? Doesn't mention anything about one's salvation being lost! (verse...63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[preston39]

Thank you for the response, however I still do not see a numerical value for the length of time.

Yet I do know Jesus died for my sins 100%, past present and future, that is a number I can rely upon because I know the author.

U...,
You are not looking at the scriptures.
100%..?...No one should argue with you about that...except, were you fail to keep your end of the bargain.....so stay righteous.

 

[Grandpa]

a drowning person who doesn't know how to swim is often panicked and flailing around, and can endanger their would-be rescuer by their thrashing about. i've heard it advised that it can help to knock them unconscious first. better for both; it's easier to swim an unconscious person back to shore than someone unwittingly working against you.

but this popular 'pulling a drowning man out of the sea' isn't quite the picture the scripture paints. Christ pulls our literally lifeless corpse from the water and brings it to life. throwing a life preserver at a dead man doesn't save him; he is not going to swim towards it.

Maybe stuck in quicksand up to a persons neck would be a better analogy?

No chance to make it out by ourselves. The more we try the worse we make it.

Until we submit/accept/receive/rest in the Power of Salvation given by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[preston39]

When we repent and are baptized we enter into a contract with G-d. It is a contract of value exchange....righteous life for eternal salvation. We can not unilaterally change that contract and expect it to remain in effect .....with the same values.

So, stay righteous.

 

[Grandpa]

When we repent and are baptized we enter into a contract with G-d. It is a contract of value exchange....righteous life for eternal salvation. We can not unilaterally change that contract and expect it to remain in effect .....with the same values.

So, say righteous.

That's Old Covenant.

There's a New Covenant now.

 

[UnderGrace]

U...,
You are not looking at the scriptures.
100%..?...No one should argue with you about that...except, were you fail to keep your end of the bargain.....so stay righteous.

There is only One that is righteous.
I am righteous because of His work by which I am justified which can never be undone because He said so.
He is righteous and the incorruptible cannot be corrupted.
Asking me to stay righteous is really asking Jesus who has imputed His righteousness to me to stay righteous.

 

[UnderGrace]

It seems obvious that there are people that "continually combine" a believer's "saving" of one's soul, which is NOT a "works based" salvation, with "overcoming the world", which is (one's) "spiritually based efforts", in which "rewards" are given and taken away, in (one's) "Spiritual perfecting", or "maturation, IN the Spirit!" HUGE difference!! Read, concerning the Parable of the Talents, for more information on this. For "this" is where "overcoming the world" as opposed to "enduring to the end", comes into play.

Just because, Jesus said, "I'll give you rest!" (sabbath, by the way), is NOT a "license" (although, it is "SEEN, AND USED", as one") in becoming "COMATOSE" at the "FOOT OF THE CROSS!" "These ones are seen "BY The Father IN Christ", as "babes!" Or? To use the Father's words, speaking "through Christ?" "WOE!" "To "those, who give suck!" "In those days!"

One's "soul" is saved! But? One's (how can I say) "Spiritual IDENTITY!!", HERE! "This says it better then I!" Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna(*"HERE", is where the Catholics got it wrong, in their "Trans-substantiation" doctrine/s concerning the taking of Holy Communion, or Sacraments!), and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
(* "this", is also what the "FATHER, IN CHRIST" "said", AND MEANT, to those people, John 6:46-66
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

As you can read? Doesn't mention anything about one's salvation being lost! (verse...63 - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I am not sure why when we say we are eternally saved this is interpreted as we no longer serving God, I would argue that it is the very assurance of salvation that spurs the believer(s) on to do the works that God would have us do.

When we are assured of our salvation our works come from Him and return to Him ...they come from a place of Liberty not obligation.

 

[OneFaith]

If you can decide to leave God then you were never truly His, because it is not our leaving it is His keeping that assures us.

Christ's blood saves. Christ's blood can be taken away. Such a person was saved, but is saved no longer.

 

[Deuteronomy]

You got part of it right, since anyone can see in Hebrews 11 that it is written that he that comes to God must believe he is, many don't hear they are saved from the moment they believe God might exist as written in Romans 8.

Hi Zmouth, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the kind of "believing/trusting" that one does when they come to saving faith in Christ, not simply the belief that God exists, which is typically on the shy side of what demons believe (because at least demons "shudder" when they do .. James 2:19 ).

~Deut

 

[mailmandan]

Hi Zmouth, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but I was referring to the kind of "believing/trusting" that one does when they come to saving faith in Christ, not simply the belief that God exists, which is typically on the shy side of what demons believe (because at least demons "shudder" when they do .. James 2:19 ).

~Deut

Good distinction. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

 

[Deuteronomy]

D...,

When we repent and are baptized we then begin to live a righteous life. We must ....."maintain"..... that until the end (death)....in order to receive eternal salvation.

Hi Preston, choosing to repent, to be baptized, to lead a righteous rather than sinful life before God, etc. are all the "result" or "fruit" of our salvation, not the cause. And we "maintain" the life of a Christian because we are Christians (IOW, because we have been regenerated/born again/were given a new heart/new spirit/indwelt by the Holy Spirit and made new creatures in Christ/made His workmanship) and, of course/principally, because God sees to it that we do persevere to the end .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25. We would not do so otherwise. We are saved by grace, not by what we do.

Scriptures teaches us.......sacrifice for forgiveness is not available when sin is present.....

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, because if forgiveness is not available when sin is present, at what point is it available (and what is the purpose of forgiveness if it's not to forgive our sins)?

Thanks!

~Deut