Not By Works

[Studyman]

Adam and Eve were saved by grace through faith as were everyone from the beginning of time, nothing has changed. It is God who provides the sacrifice and who brought them their clothing as He does for you and I. It is God who provides our sacrifice for sin, and who redeems us from the fall, paradise lost, paradise restored.

The fatal flaw of grace plus works "false gospel", is original sin, "Pride." There is a need to humble yourself and accept that only God has the power to save. A works based gospel is an insult to our God and our Savior Jesus Christ. It is God alone who cloths us with, "garments of salvation", humble yourself and believe.

Genesis3:21
21) The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them

Isaiah61:10
"I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."

God bless

Gen. 3:
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (you are saved)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof,(reject God's instruction) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat

I agree that Pride played a big part in Eve's deception. She was too prideful to humble herself to God and His instruction. She was too prideful to asked her husband before making a choice. Because of Pride she considered her vision superior to that of her Creator.

How things would have been different if she had just showed the humility and "Faith" of Abraham and Caleb and all the other example of Faith in the Bible.

But alas, she listened and obeyed the wrong voice.

She had "works" as do we all. Just not the Works of the Lord which purchased her. As it is written:

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

And again:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever (jew or gentile)will come after me, let him deny himself, (his vision, his judgment) and take up his cross, and follow me. (The Word which became Flesh)

It must also be understood that if God granted Adam and Eve forgiveness, then they also must have repented.

Luke 1:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul taught the Gentiles the very same thing.

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

So while I agree that neither Adam nor Eve, nor myself had anything to do whatsoever with the Sacrifice of the Christ and the Grace it provides to us. I don't buy into the religion that Jesus not only provides this Grace, but He repents for us, He denies Himself For us, He does "Works worthy of repentance" for us, picks up our cross for us, and follows Himself for us.

I can see how such a religion would be very popular, and why so many people would want to follow it, but I just don't believe, given the scriptures, that men don't play a part in their own salvation.

Luke 6:
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[BillG]

Adam and Eve were saved by grace through faith as were everyone from the beginning of time, nothing has changed. It is God who provides the sacrifice and who brought them their clothing as He does for you and I. It is God who provides our sacrifice for sin, and who redeems us from the fall, paradise lost, paradise restored.

The fatal flaw of grace plus works "false gospel", is original sin, "Pride." There is a need to humble yourself and accept that only God has the power to save. A works based gospel is an insult to our God and our Savior Jesus Christ. It is God alone who cloths us with, "garments of salvation", humble yourself and believe.

Genesis3:21
21) The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them

Isaiah61:10
"I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels."

God bless

Hi TT.

I love your above post.

So much truth in it.

I have read it and read it again.

I often thought that the first act of grace in the Bible was that God clothed Adam & Eve.

As I pondered on this it is apparent he did so because they realised they were naked.

Genesis 3:8-10
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

As I pondered this and looked at the above verses and what hit me was.

Adam and Eve sinned.
God knew this.
Yet he still sought after them.

God says "Adam where are you?

To me that's the first act of grace in the Bible.

He then clothes them.

He clothes them with garment's of skin.

If that's the case then has he done so by killing an animal. Sacrifice an animal to clothe the sin of Adam & Eve.
If that's the case then to kill an animal is to shed it's blood.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The ultimate sacrifice, shedding of blood.

Jesus did that on the cross.

So when Adam & Eve sinned God knew it.
He seeks them out, he already had a plan in place.
Jesus would come to the world, he was with the Father in the beginning.

And yes we are clothed in his righteousness

Isaiah 61:10-11
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

 

[dcontroversal]

When you say "verb tense PROVES A CONTINUING RESULT FROM A PAST COMPLETED ACTION.." what verse or verses are you referring to?

Perfect tense verbs saturate the verses that deal.with salvation...below is just one example of dozens...and the bible is clear...

a. We were saved eternally the micro second be believed.
b. We are saved right now
c. We are CONTINUING to he saved into the future

Perfect tense Greek verb....past completed action with a present continuing result....ENGLISH does not have this application within it's grammatical construx...and exactly why MANY erroneously teach that scripture teaches a losable salvation....

In Ephesians 2:8, the words in the corrected text, “you have been saved,” is a translation of two Greek words which form what is called in the Greek text a “periphrastic perfect.” The “perfect” tense refers to action completed in past time, with the results of this action extending into present time and existing in a finished state. The “periphrastic” construction places additional emphasis on the present, finished state and refers to the persistent results during present time of the past,completed work

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi TT.

I love your above post.

So much truth in it.

I have read it and read it again.

I often thought that the first act of grace in the Bible was that God clothed Adam & Eve.

As I pondered on this it is apparent he did so because they realised they were naked.

Genesis 3:8-10
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

As I pondered this and looked at the above verses and what hit me was.

Adam and Eve sinned.
God knew this.
Yet he still sought after them.

God says "Adam where are you?

To me that's the first act of grace in the Bible.

He then clothes them.

He clothes them with garment's of skin.

If that's the case then has he done so by killing an animal. Sacrifice an animal to clothe the sin of Adam & Eve.
If that's the case then to kill an animal is to shed it's blood.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The ultimate sacrifice, shedding of blood.

Jesus did that on the cross.

So when Adam & Eve sinned God knew it.
He seeks them out, he already had a plan in place.
Jesus would come to the world, he was with the Father in the beginning.

And yes we are clothed in his righteousness

Isaiah 61:10-11
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Amen Bill...man's first attempt by works to save himself....rejected by God and dealt with by God shedding blood and covering Adam's shame....Man's second attempt at works were by Cain...also rejected and Cain makes the list in Jude (1st on list of false teachers) of false teachers...he peddled his works just as many do on here....only work that will save man <--faith into the work of Christ....any embellishments = no salvation!

 

[TruthTalk]

Hi TT.

I love your above post.

So much truth in it.

I have read it and read it again.

I often thought that the first act of grace in the Bible was that God clothed Adam & Eve.

As I pondered on this it is apparent he did so because they realised they were naked.

Genesis 3:8-10
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

As I pondered this and looked at the above verses and what hit me was.

Adam and Eve sinned.
God knew this.
Yet he still sought after them.

God says "Adam where are you?

To me that's the first act of grace in the Bible.

He then clothes them.

He clothes them with garment's of skin.

If that's the case then has he done so by killing an animal. Sacrifice an animal to clothe the sin of Adam & Eve.
If that's the case then to kill an animal is to shed it's blood.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

The ultimate sacrifice, shedding of blood.

Jesus did that on the cross.

So when Adam & Eve sinned God knew it.
He seeks them out, he already had a plan in place.
Jesus would come to the world, he was with the Father in the beginning.

And yes we are clothed in his righteousness

Isaiah 61:10-11
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Appreciate your words, Jesus put believers back in a relationship with our heavenly Father as it was in the garden. Relationship restored; not fully yet. And the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that what God has promised is true. Just like a letter that you would send to your loved one, we are sealed guaranteeing our inheritance, joint heirs, a beautiful promise from our God.

The people who add works to God's gift, eternal salvation, are full of pride. They are hoping that by adding works to God's grace it will balance out their good deeds with the bad. You can not merit eternal salvation.

Galations3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Epheasians1:14
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[mailmandan]

Appreciate your words, Jesus put believers back in a relationship with our heavenly Father as it was in the garden. Relationship restored; not fully yet. And the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that what God has promised is true. Just like a letter that you would send to your loved one, we are sealed guaranteeing our inheritance, joint heirs, a beautiful promise from our God.

The people who add works to God's gift, eternal salvation, are full of pride. They are hoping that by adding works to God's grace it will balance out their good deeds with the bad. You can not merit eternal salvation.

Galations3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Epheasians1:14
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

It’s a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through FAITH.

 

[TruthTalk]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

It’s a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through FAITH.

Amen dan, if you can show them that their grace plus works gospel if false from the very beginning such as God providing a sacrifice and clothing to Adam and Eve, then their attempt at creating a counterfeit gospel will fall
apart like a house of cards.

These people who promote a grace plus works gospel are nothing more than a "Modern Day Pharisee." They read the bible hoping they will find verses that will support their counterfeit gospel, not so that they can learn and mature unto Christ likeness.

Jesus had plenty to say about Pharisees pronouncing them, "wow unto you pharisees"

 

[Studyman]

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

It’s a shame that HUMAN PRIDE will not allow works-salvationists to come to Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through FAITH.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Amen and Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Amen and Amen.

We are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Amen and Amen

 

[theanointedsinner]

each individual (or advocate of their own method of salvation) would want as much people to abide by their own individual's method of salvation, even though it contradicts another person's method of salvation

for example: Seohce want everyone to abide by the believe that OSAS is false
even though this clearly contradicts dcontroversal's

 

[Sagart]

Click the link below and see post #67,911.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3396#post-3668115

Post #67,911 is highly imaginative, but not at all biblical. Indeed, post #67,911 says in part,

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can thatfaith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

None is this is true! In James 2:14 we read,

14 Τί ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (NASB, 1995)

Therefore, we do not read of one who “says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to substantiate his claim),” but rather we read of “πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ (someone/anyone who says he has faith but has no works). There is no mention in this verse, or anywhere else this passage, of works resulting as a consequence of faith Indeed, Biblical faith is a faith that is inseparable from good works which are an integral and essential part of that faith rather than a mere consequence of that faith.

Post #67,911 also says in part,

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18),not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

None is this is true! In James 2:24 we read,

24 ὁρᾶτε ὅτι ἐξ ἔργων δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος καὶ οὐκ ἐκ πίστεως μόνον.

24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (NASB, 1995)

Where in this verse or in this passage do we find that “James is discussing the evidence of faith?” Answer: We do not find it anywhere! What we do find is James saying that we see from what he has written that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Indeed, in vv. 21-23 we read,

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

James is teaching the doctrine of Justification by Faith, the very same doctrine that Paul is teaching in Romans 4:2-3—using the very same Abraham as an example! We are “justified by works and not by faith alone.”

There is nothing—absolutely nothing—more important to me that the truth. Therefore, when I find the Bible being falsely manipulated to distort the truth, I am deeply grieved.

 

[theanointedsinner]

I am not able to force myself to believe that the Not By Works thread is the most peaceful possible thread in all of cc.com

just like that, even if there's free will involved in believe, there's limits to how much free will we can have, in choosing faith

 

[Seohce]

Amen dan, if you can show them that their grace plus works gospel if false from the very beginning such as God providing a sacrifice and clothing to Adam and Eve, then their attempt at creating a counterfeit gospel will fall
apart like a house of cards.

These people who promote a grace plus works gospel are nothing more than a "Modern Day Pharisee." They read the bible hoping they will find verses that will support their counterfeit gospel, not so that they can learn and mature unto Christ likeness.

Jesus had plenty to say about Pharisees pronouncing them, "wow unto you pharisees"

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)



OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:



Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.



THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.



JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)



WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?



WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)



IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?



JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.



Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.



Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?



GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )



Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.



2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)



NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?



Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.



ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?



DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?



Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.



James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)

 

[Seohce]

Perfect tense verbs saturate the verses that deal.with salvation...below is just one example of dozens...and the bible is clear...

a. We were saved eternally the micro second be believed.
b. We are saved right now
c. We are CONTINUING to he saved into the future

Perfect tense Greek verb....past completed action with a present continuing result....ENGLISH does not have this application within it's grammatical construx...and exactly why MANY erroneously teach that scripture teaches a losable salvation....

In Ephesians 2:8, the words in the corrected text, “you have been saved,” is a translation of two Greek words which form what is called in the Greek text a “periphrastic perfect.” The “perfect” tense refers to action completed in past time, with the results of this action extending into present time and existing in a finished state. The “periphrastic” construction places additional emphasis on the present, finished state and refers to the persistent results during present time of the past,completed work

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.

THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE JUDGMENT ANYMORE?

Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your souls.

SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

JESUS SAID;

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15

…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17

“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john 14:21-24

THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:

Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM.

(2john 1:4-11)

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST?

They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.



WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17) WE HONOR AND GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)


Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”


1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.


2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.


Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from

God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)

“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus goes into great detail to warn about those who are convinced they had "Faith" but refused to trust Jesus enough to follow His Instructions.

The problem with these many people in Matthew 7:22 was not that they actually had faith but failed to follow His instructions. Also, seeking salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is not following His instructions. Following His instructions after we have been saved through faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

Matt. 7:22

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so calling Jesus Lord was merely lip service and their attempted external obedience was stained with sin/filthy rags.

These "Believers" had fruits as you said all genuine believes have. They were also convinced in their mind that they were "Saved". They taught in Christ's name, surely they claimed"Belief" in Jesus. Yet, they were rejected from His Kingdom.

These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not believers, but unbelievers. That was the heart of the issue here. Believers trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). Unbelievers trust in works for salvation.

Why? Because of their "WORKS". Their "Works" showed who they really had "faith" in, who they really trusted. Had they truly believed in the Jesus of the Bible, they would have followed His teaching.

The problem wasn't merely about them not sufficiently following enough of His teachings in order to merit eternal life. Following His instructions after we have been saved through faith is the fruit of salvation, but not the root of it. *We are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

titus 1:16

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 1:15 - To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

Jesus warned that "MANY" would take this broad "Path". He said to "Strive to enter" (Work) into a different path.

Of course many would take this broad road. Look at how many false religions and cults in the world teach salvation by works. Jesus was not suggesting here that we could earn heaven by striving for it hard enough "works based salvation." Jesus made that clear in John 6:28-29. Entering through the narrow gate is nonetheless difficult because of it's cost in terms of human pride which prevents the sinner from coming to faith in Christ. It's a struggle and an endeavor for sinner's to turn from their sinful lifestyles, let go of their works (many trust in works for salvation) and take hold of Christ through faith.

34

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. ( All Works)

Denying ourselves, taking up our cross and following Jesus involves works "after we have been saved through faith." You are trying to turn works into the basis or means of salvation in these passages of scripture.

15

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Works)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If we love Him (descriptive of believers) then we will keep "tereo" (guard, observe, watch over, keep intact) His commandments which demonstrates that we have come to know Him (1 John 2:3). This is saved FOR works, NOT saved by works. *Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

John 8:
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word,( Works) then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. Those who continue in His word demonstrate they are truly disciples of Jesus. Again, this is saved FOR works NOT saved by works. In John 8:31-59, notice where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

 

[mailmandan]

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

But they all thought they did believe Dan. They were "convinced" that they were "Genuine believers", God's People. They had "fruits", some more than others. So why did Jesus say He rejected them?

Was it not because they omitted parts of His Instructions? Isn't that the reason why they were rejected? Wasn't that the "fruit" that allowed us to see their true faith?

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored). Romans 11:1 - I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not get arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God

23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,(God's instructions) judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If the scribes and Pharisees were genuine believers (instead of unbelieving hypocrites) then they would not have omitted the weightier matters of the law -- judgment, mercy, and faith, but keep in mind that we are not justified by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22-28; Galatians 2:16 etc..).

So even though they claimed God as their savior, and they claimed to have "Faith" "Belief" in Him, they were deceiving themselves because if they had truly loved, trusted, had Faith in Him, they would have done as He instructed as did Abraham.

That's true, yet keep in mind that Abraham was not saved by works and neither are we. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Paul is using them as a tool of warning for us.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: (Works) otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

This is not salvation by works, as you continue to teach. Paul admonishes the Gentiles to "stand by your faith." Paul is speaking to the church at Rome who felt that Gentiles were somehow better than Jews because God had chosen them for salvation. This was a bigoted position, and Paul is trying to correct their error. He says that if the Gentiles as a whole were to become an unbelieving people, then God would just as readily cut them off from the promises of salvation. This position was to be understood as a cultural comparison, not on an individual basis (verse 13 says, "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.") In fact, later in the chapter Paul argues for the security of the believer in God's calling. "For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." (vs.29)

As it is written;

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (mans) works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Why did you "add" (mans) works to Ephesians 2:9? Roman Catholics also try to twist verse 9 to make it say we are not saved by "these" works (then give a list of works that don't save) but we are saved by "those" works (then give a list of works that they believe save). Paul DID NOT say saved through faith "plus these works" but just not "those" works. Elsewhere, Paul said not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) Also, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. So Paul is talking about works in general and is not teaching saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, as works-salvationists erroneously teach. Also, we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

So to conclude, those who have true "Faith" in Jesus with trust Him enough to do as He says. We will deny our thoughts, take up our individuality, and follow Him. Not the religious traditions of man as "Many" did in Christ's time. But we will submit our self to Him and HIS Ways.

Those who have true faith in Jesus trust in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. Those who are born of God do as He says and not what false religions and cults say. Genuine believers submit themselves to Him and His ways, which does not include perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

"IF" we do these things He is faithful to give us what we need to endure all the religious snares and traps out there. But if we refuse to believe in Him enough to follow His instructions, then because of this "unbelief" we will also be cut of as the Mainstream Preachers and those who followed their teaching were cut off in Christ's time.

How do you know that you are any better than these "mainstream preachers" that you continue to condemn? Seeking to follow the right instructions for the wrong reasons in a vain effort to receive salvation by works is not believing in Him. All you continue to do is promote salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" and accuse everyone else of not following the Lord's instructions with the implication that you sufficiently follow the Lord's instructions then confidently and self righteously declare that you qualify for heaven under those terms.

 

[mailmandan]

Believe with our heart and confess with our mouth.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10


with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


THis is the obeying part that brings about salvation: regenation - being born again.

Once again, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heartthat God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confession is not a work for salvation, but is an expression of faith.

The obeying part that brings salvation is we obey the gospel by CHOOSING TO BELIEVE THE GOSPEL (Romans 1:16; 10:16).

you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit

"Purified your souls in obeying the truth" (1 Peter 1:22) -- Purified their hearts by faith (Acts 15:9). Salvation by works (as you continue to teach) is not in view here.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

“All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.”
Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To “believe” the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

 

[justpassinthrough]

No, actually believe does not mean obey....obey means obey....are you to dense to understand language and definitions or do you just twist them to fit your false dogma?

be·lieve
bəˈlēv/
verb

1. 1.
   accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.
   "the superintendent believed Lancaster's story"
   synonyms:be convinced by, trust, have confidence in, consider honest, consider truthful

Are you using a secular dictionary to define a biblical word?


Is that an honest attempt at discovering the truth?


Why not use the bible itself and the context, or at least use a bible study concordance or lexicon.


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


The biblical word believe carries the idea of trust, and commit as well as obey.

• Unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeable and are the same Greek word.

Example:


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV



Those who do not obey the Gospel will suffer His vengeance on that Day.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JPT

 

[grace77]

Are you using a secular dictionary to define a biblical word?


Is that an honest attempt at discovering the truth?


Why not use the bible itself and the context, or at least use a bible study concordance or lexicon.


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


The biblical word believe carries the idea of trust, and commit as well as obey.

• Unbelief and disobedience are used interchangeable and are the same Greek word.

Example:


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV



Those who do not obey the Gospel will suffer His vengeance on that Day.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JPT

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard (even in this forum) lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the Word spoken by angels was steadfast and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed by those that heard him.
Heb 2:1-3

 

[justpassinthrough]

Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard (even in this forum) lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the Word spoken by angels was steadfast and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed by those that heard him.
Heb 2:1-3

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth

James is addressing Christians, who go astray.

• someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way

A Christian who wanders from the truth, is a sinner in need of repentance.

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

Christians who neglect their salvation and wander from the truth will face eternal death unless they are turned back to the truth.




JPT