Christ is God

[trofimus]

Refuting yourself; when Jesus said "i and the Father are one" or "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.." did He actually mean if you see a distinct person, you have seen the other distinct person?
You are the one who has torn scriptures apart and given them a new false meaning. All the scriptures that you have quoted don't support your doctrine, none. That why you have to add your own creations and the idea that first century church believed in it. Simply put; there's no verse in the entire bible that suggests three distinct persons in one being - where the Father is not the son and the son is not the Holy spirit.

I believe that Son and Father are one [God]. You read it that Son and Father are one [person]. This verse is not useful for the issue, it can be read in both ways.

You are still trying to propagate that trinitarians are the ones changing Scriptures, torning them apart, giving them FALSE meanings atd. Which is not true. Oneness is a heresy, as I said in my previous post:

There are hundreds of such verses you must either:
a) throw out of the Bible (Mt 28:19)
b) invent strange explanations like "almost reality" (Lord said to my Lord) or "it happened only in mind" (Jesus's baptism)
c) ignore all together (John chapter 17)
d) talkings and prayings of the Son to Father you must dismiss as "only examples without literal meaning"
e) sayings of Father from heaven when the Son was on the Earth you must dismiss as a theatre for the audience, without any real distinction between Father and Son
f) you must ignore places where Jesus says that He and His Father are two independent witnesses

You must also:
a) ignore the first church and its writings
b) ignore the first christian creeds that are universally accepted by Christianity

 

[posthuman]

I believe that Son and Father are one [God]. You read it that Son and Father are one [person]. This verse is not useful for the issue, it can be read in both ways.

You are still trying to propagate that trinitarians are the ones changing Scriptures, torning them apart, giving them FALSE meanings atd. Which is not true. Oneness is a heresy, as I said in my previous post:

There are hundreds of such verses you must either:
a) throw out of the Bible (Mt 28:19)
b) invent strange explanations like "almost reality" (Lord said to my Lord) or "it happened only in mind" (Jesus's baptism)
c) ignore all together (John chapter 17)
d) talkings and prayings of the Son to Father you must dismiss as "only examples without literal meaning"
e) sayings of Father from heaven when the Son was on the Earth you must dismiss as a theatre for the audience, without any real distinction between Father and Son
f) you must ignore places where Jesus says that He and His Father are two independent witnesses

You must also:
a) ignore the first church and its writings
b) ignore the first christian creeds that are universally accepted by Christianity

it seems obvious to me from scripture that Jesus Christ both positively identifies Himself with I AM and that He also distinguishes Himself from the Father -- yet there is one God and God is one.

it is a difficult thing to comprehend as an human. being human i am not surprised that it is marvelous and almost incomprehensible -- but both are true: that God was manifest in the flesh, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth - who, being the Son of God, is fully God and fully man.

i confess i am not up on 'oneness' to the degree that a lot of you are, and that i have been to busy to keep up with how this thread has proceeded over the last week, so there are a lot of pages worth of posts i haven't read. a lot that i've skimmed i don't feel qualified to comment on..

but i wanted to pop in and say, i believe and am sure, that Christ is God, He is never not God: the Son of God, the Messiah, is I AM manifest in the flesh, uncreated, eternal, equal to the Father yet somehow distinct in a way that i don't think we will comprehend until we are fully changed, able only then to know Him as we are known by Him.

 

[trofimus]

it seems obvious to me from scripture that Jesus Christ both positively identifies Himself with I AM and that He also distinguishes Himself from the Father -- yet there is one God and God is one.

it is a difficult thing to comprehend as an human. being human i am not surprised that it is marvelous and almost incomprehensible -- but both are true: that God was manifest in the flesh, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth - who, being the Son of God, is fully God and fully man.

i confess i am not up on 'oneness' to the degree that a lot of you are, and that i have been to busy to keep up with how this thread has proceeded over the last week, so there are a lot of pages worth of posts i haven't read. a lot that i've skimmed i don't feel qualified to comment on..

but i wanted to pop in and say, i believe and am sure, that Christ is God, He is never not God: the Son of God, the Messiah, is I AM manifest in the flesh, uncreated, eternal, equal to the Father yet somehow distinct in a way that i don't think we will comprehend until we are fully changed, able only then to know Him as we are known by Him.

For a natural human its of course more simple to imagine God as one person playing three roles because thats what humans can do, too.

Trinity truly contains some mystery for humans, because its not so easy to grasp, that one being have three persons.

But our theology should not be based on "which idea of God is more simple for my human brain".

 

[Noose]

For a natural human its of course more simple to imagine God as one person playing three roles because thats what humans can do, too.

Trinity truly contains some mystery for humans, because its not so easy to grasp, that one being have three persons.

But our theology should not be based on "which idea of God is more simple for my human brain".

Trinity is not biblical. look keenly and take care that you may not fall, but i'm afraid you have swallowed the bait and the sinker like majority of the Christians have. Some say it is just a pass time topic that can not affect our faith; it is not, your description of God ends up denying the Father and the son concept which is the salvation concept of God.

Only God lives forever and if anyone is to have any hopes of living forever, they must be one with God; God in them and them in God, so that they become one. For this reason, God has created a vacancy for us -the authority of the son that He being our Father may indwell us. If you don't believe that Jesus is He then you have missed the mark. I'm sorry.

Rom 8: 9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, yourbody is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.

It is not that people will go to hell for such but it has devastating effect.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Is the son one person and two beings or one person and one being?

"And you shall call his name Immanuel, meaning God with us." God said he is one, the only, and there is no other beside him. If God had said, I divide myself into three natures so thou shalt see my covering power.... or something of that nature, he would be three. God is one.
I think where people become confused is they think of "God" as a name. But God is used in scripture as the verb forum behind what are the names of God given in the old testament. There we also read God is holy, God is a spirit and must be worshiped in the spirit. That's where we arrive at thinking of YHWH, I Am, EL, as holy spirit. Emmanuel, Immanuel, Yeshua, Jesus, was therefore the holy spirit in flesh.

EL, I Am, created everything that exists. He created humans and he formed himself in the womb of Mary, begat himself, to arrive on earth and deliver the fulfillment of the old testament prophecy of Messiah and establish the new covenant of immortal life and eternal salvation. It is all El, I Am, YHWH. There is only one. And all there is that exists seen and unseen are of that eternal all powerful omni-present holy spirit. Jesus "Christ". Anointed Immanuel. God power in a "man" who walked among us.

KJV Dictionary Definition: beget
beget
BEGET', v.t. pret. begot, begat; pp. begot, begotten.

1. To procreate, as a father or sire; to generate; as, to beget a son.

2. To produce, as an effect; to cause to exist; to generate; as, luxury begets vice.

 

[rlm68]

i confess i am not up on 'oneness' to the degree that a lot of you are, and that i have been to busy to keep up with how this thread has proceeded over the last week, so there are a lot of pages worth of posts i haven't read. a lot that i've skimmed i don't feel qualified to comment on..

The name Yeshua (Jesus' real name) means Yahweh's Salvation. We obviously know who Yahweh is since the original Hebrews used that term for the All Powerful One God. So, it is rather interesting that the Messiah's NAME has Yahweh in it = Yahweh's Salvation, or Yeshua!!

Genesis 6:3 is also Specific of Yahweh and His personal Spirit (capital S = Holy Spirit) living in us like we know the Holy Spirit lives in us now

Original Hebrew translation Genesis 6:3
3 YAHWEH said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years."

Here are 2 examples of YAHWEH being involved with both the Messiah (WORD made flesh) and the Holy Spirit.
From these examples according to actual HEBREW, the Holy Spirit is the personal Spirit of YAHWEH (like we humans have a personal spirit), and the WORD made flesh is actually YAHWEH's Salvation. So it is clear, they are distinctly members of YAHWEH.

In Aramaic, Malala = Word, speech. Logos. The definition is Spoken WORD. Literally, YAHEWEH spoke and His WORD who was made flesh performed the action. Much like Christ said in John 14, the Father living inside Me is doing the things you see and saying the things you hear.

So, it is clear that in the Hebrew, the Holy Spirit means personal Spirit of YAHWEH, and the WORD means, Spoken WORD of YAHWEH.
example: YAHWEH said, "Let there be light," and His spoken WORD created light.

When you see it in this Hebrew context, you obviously can see God is YAHWEH, the Holy Spirit is YAHWEH (since it is His personal Spirit), and the WORD is YAHWEH (since the WORD is the spoken word from the lips/mouth of YAHWEH) and the WORD's name means (YAHWEH's Salvation).

It then is rather conclusive that there is only one person of God (YAHWEH), which relates to our first Commandment (have no other gods before ME [singular meaning]).

So, if we are referring to the Holy Spirit or to the Messiah (WORD), we still are referring to YAHWEH!!

 

[Zmouth]

True theology should not have to dismiss Bible verses or even full chapters like "its just a theatre for our example, He did not mean what He was saying, actually.".

Good point, so in consideration of the fact that it is written in 2 John 9 the following:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.​

Then the doctrine of Christ must be the doctrine of Jesus, since Jesus is the Christ, right?

​

 

[Enoch987]

Please, for the sake of argument expand on your meaning. Also for a few post now you've been citing Col 2:15, our discussion is about Col 1:15 not 2:15.

You defined firstborn as something/someone that is "born as the first in a line", in a line of what? Can you expand and give me an example?

You also defined it as the "head, somebody who is over something, preeminent", can you give me an example of this from the scriptures so I can better understand what you mean.

Also, where have you taken this definition from, is it sourced from somewhere or is it from your own understanding?

I don't know Greek or Hebrew but the way firstborn is used in 1 Chronicles 26:10 is a son who was not born first was appointed by the father to be the firstborn. Jesus is the chosen Son (Luke 9:35). Christian Orthodoxy doesn't know what to do with this other than saying firstborn means preeminent (over all things).
Satan wanted to be like God (Isaiah 14:13-14). Satan said, "I will ascend above the stars (the sons) of God. I will make my self like God."
Jesus is like God. He was chosen by the Father to be like the Father.
Why not go with what the Bible says rather than the Creeds?

 

[Zmouth]

it seems obvious to me from scripture that Jesus Christ both positively identifies Himself with I AM and that He also distinguishes Himself from the Father -- yet there is one God and God is one.

Since the scriptures are written about him and not by him then I will pose this question I previously asked another member ;

the Son of God, the Messiah, is I AM manifest in the flesh, uncreated, eternal, equal to the Father yet somehow distinct in a way that i don't think we will comprehend until we are fully changed, able only then to know Him as we are known by Him.

Uncreated? So do yo consider the universe (the heaven and earth) was created or uncreated since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but can only change forms?

 

[Zmouth]

>>>>> Posthuman

Not sure why it posted the way it did, but after

Since the scriptures are written about him and not by him then I will pose this question I previously asked another member ;

it should have been followed by a copy of my quote in # 707

Good point, so in consideration of the fact that it is written in 2 John 9 the following:​

​

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. ​

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.​

​

Then the doctrine of Christ must be the doctrine of Jesus, since Jesus is the Christ, right?​

​

And our course the quote following was the one you made in post # 702

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please, for the sake of argument expand on your meaning. Also for a few post now you've been citing Col 2:15, our discussion is about Col 1:15 not 2:15.

You defined firstborn as something/someone that is "born as the first in a line", in a line of what? Can you expand and give me an example?

You also defined it as the "head, somebody who is over something, preeminent", can you give me an example of this from the scriptures so I can better understand what you mean.

Also, where have you taken this definition from, is it sourced from somewhere or is it from your own understanding?

The word firstborn (πρωτοτόκος, prototokos) in Colossians 1:15, refers to the rights of the firstborn. In the days of the patriarchs inheritance passed via primogeniture, in which the firstborn son inherited everything. There were two aspects to this right: the blessing and the headship of the family. In the cases of Isaac, Jacob and Joseph (none of these were actually born first, but GOD made them the firstborns), they inherited the family name (headship) and the blessing (which included the promises of GOD made to Abraham).

 

[posthuman]

Since the scriptures are written about him and not by him then I will pose this question I previously asked another member ;

Uncreated? So do yo consider the universe (the heaven and earth) was created or uncreated since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but can only change forms?

do you think Jesus is merely flesh and bone?

are humans nothing more than the dust their bodies are formed from, abs is Christ not infinitely more than man?

 

[Zmouth]

do you think Jesus is merely flesh and bone?

Since I hold a firm reliance on the principle that all men are created equal, I don't equate the flesh of the male and female as being more than the body of mass in which the living soul indwells.

But I did notice that you didn't answer the question I submitted in post # 707 for your response.

are humans nothing more than the dust their bodies are formed from,

Since the human body is composed on averages of 78% water at birth, have you considered maybe re-evaluating your interpretation of the Book? (See Isaiah 29:11).

While you didn't answer the question I submitted in post # 797 for your response, which neither did the person who was quoted in the post. Since neither of you replied then I when it is written in 1 Peter 3:15, then how do you sanctify the Spirit of truth within your soul if it is written "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason for the hope that in you"?

is Christ not infinitely more than man?

Since you can't answer the question regarding the doctrine of Christ, then in reply to your question above I will aver to John 8:17-18

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.​

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

 

[Noose]

Since I hold a firm reliance on the principle that all men are created equal, I don't equate the flesh of the male and female as being more than the body of mass in which the living soul indwells.

But I did notice that you didn't answer the question I submitted in post # 707 for your response.



Since the human body is composed on averages of 78% water at birth, have you considered maybe re-evaluating your interpretation of the Book? (See Isaiah 29:11).

While you didn't answer the question I submitted in post # 797 for your response, which neither did the person who was quoted in the post. Since neither of you replied then I when it is written in 1 Peter 3:15, then how do you sanctify the Spirit of truth within your soul if it is written "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason for the hope that in you"?



Since you can't answer the question regarding the doctrine of Christ, then in reply to your question above I will aver to John 8:17-18

17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.​

18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

You mean #post 697?

 

[trofimus]

Good point, so in consideration of the fact that it is written in 2 John 9 the following:

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.​

Then the doctrine of Christ must be the doctrine of Jesus, since Jesus is the Christ, right?

​

Yes, jesus is Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Since the scriptures are written about him and not by him then I will pose this question I previously asked another member ;

Uncreated? So do yo consider the universe (the heaven and earth) was created or uncreated since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but can only change forms?

The Universe was created (had a finite beginning).

Matter and energy inside this univers cannot be created or destroyed. But these laws are properties of the Universe, these laws cease when the Universe cease to exist.

The Logos is eternal and begotten (i.e. from God), not created. Everything else is created (i.e. from nothing).

 

[Noose]

The Universe was created (had a finite beginning).

Matter and energy inside this univers cannot be created or destroyed. But these laws are properties of the Universe, these laws cease when the Universe cease to exist.

The Logos is eternal and begotten (i.e. from God), not created. Everything else is created (i.e. from nothing).

Matter is created, it can't be eternal. Energy can also be destroyed so it also must have a beginning.
There are so many other things in this world that were not created and can not be destroyed- anything that is immaterial is eternal, it can not be created or destroyed because it is immaterial.

 

[JaumeJ]

[HR][/HR]~—•—○— CHALLENGE —○—•—~
[HR][/HR]
​

Show from scripture that Jesus the Messiah is God.

[HR][/HR]

i'll go first:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.​

(John 1:1-5) ​

​

The Christ is that Word, who pitched His tent with us, came to His own, but wasn't known by them, who loved me, and gave Himself! He is the Light and the Resurrection and the Life!


[HR][/HR]

OK, your turn! Go!!

Absolutely, clear as water and AMEN.

 

[trofimus]

Matter is created, it can't be eternal. Energy can also be destroyed so it also must have a beginning.
There are so many other things in this world that were not created and can not be destroyed- anything that is immaterial is eternal, it can not be created or destroyed because it is immaterial.

Only God is eternal. Immateriality does not equal immortality or being without a beginning.

God created spiritual angels, angels can be created and destroyed, they are neither immortal nor eternal.

 

[Noose]

Only God is eternal. Immateriality does not equal immortality or being without a beginning.

God created spiritual angels, angels can be created and destroyed, they are neither immortal nor eternal.

Ok, when was darkness created?