Christ is God

[Noose]

I answered your question about this (if is this or that person is a being) 5 times, please find it in my posts, if you forgot what the answer was.

Wait, you do not believe that the Son, Jesus Christ, has a body now? The resurrected Jesus disappeaerd when he ascended in body to heaven and his body is gone?

You didn't answer anything and you can't answer it now coz you believe three persons are one being.
Q. Is the Father a being when He is alone?

If Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, how did he come into the disciples?

John 14:23Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stayed with him.

 

[trofimus]

You didn't answer anything and you can't answer it now coz you believe three persons are one being.
Q. Is the Father a being when He is alone?

If Jesus has a body of flesh and bones, how did he come into the disciples?

Again, it depends on our level of discernment.
Several triangles can create a higher triangle. Several organisms can create an organism of a higher order. Father can be called being, Son can be called being and still they can "create" a one being of higher order. I wrote this like 6 times now.

Jesus does not have a body of bones and flesh, he is resurrected and have a spiritual body, but still able to eat and drink, able to be touched. Like gospels say.

John 14:23Jesus answered and said to him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stayed with him.

We? Ouch, oneness destroyed again.

 

[Noose]

You believe that somebody who believes that Jesus Christ does not exist now, is saved, just because he believes that Jesus was God?

For me, this is even worse than JW ideas, even though its hard which of these two heresies is worse.

Someone who believes Jesus doesn't exist now should be an atheist. It shows that you haven't grasped a thing from what i said.
The person who denies Jesus has already denied the Father and son, there's nothing like accepting them as distinct persons.

1 John 2:22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son can have the Father; who ever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

 

[trofimus]

Someone who believes Jesus doesn't exist now should be an atheist. It shows that you haven't grasped a thing from what i said.
The person who denies Jesus has already denied the Father and son, there's nothing like accepting them as distinct persons.

1 John 2:22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son can have the Father; who ever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

For you, jesus Christ is only a concept, plan, role, authority. Not a living person having will like Father, being with Father.

 

[Noose]

Again, it depends on our level of discernment.
Several triangles can create a higher triangle. Several organisms can create an organism of a higher order. Father can be called being, Son can be called being and still they can "create" a one being of higher order. I wrote this like 6 times now.

Jesus does not have a body of bones and flesh, he is resurrected and have a spiritual body, but still able to eat and drink, able to be touched. Like gospels say.


We? Ouch, oneness destroyed again.

Again you'll claim that you have answered but you haven't. There's no level of discernment needed and you can't complicate a simple matter such as this. A being fundamentally shows existence- if you ask me if i'm a being you are actually asking if i exist and the answer should be a simple yes or no.

Does the Father exist alone? Yes. Is the Father a being? Yes.
You can't bring organisms in here because you can't compare organisms with the creator of organisms. I do understand however the predicament you are in for thinking that three persons are one being. You are obviously wrong.

Yes. Jesus has a spiritual body- A spiritual body means spirit and now you acknowledge that Jesus is the Holy spirit and the Father even though you don't realize it.

 

[Noose]

For you, jesus Christ is only a concept, plan, role, authority. Not a living person having will like Father, being with Father.

Nope.
Jesus is one person and one being who holds the authorities of the Father/Son/Holy spirit. Right now He is our Father in heaven and He indwells us as the Holy spirit because we are the sons.
About having a will like the Father - wrong. Jesus said all the Father has belongs to Him; He simply meant that the office of the Father belongs to Him.
All actually means ALL (Everything- including the will).

 

[trofimus]

Jews, muslims, mormons, JW, oneness

Nope.
Jesus is one person and one being who holds the authorities of the Father/Son/Holy spirit. Right now He is our Father in heaven and He indwells us as the Holy spirit because we are the sons.
About having a will like the Father - wrong. Jesus said all the Father has belongs to Him; He simply meant that the office of the Father belongs to Him.
All actually means ALL (Everything- including the will).

"I am going to my Father... My Father is greater than I" J 14:28
"...that hour knows no man, nor angels, nor the Son, only Father" Mk 13:32

If Jesus is both Father and Son, such verses, again, make no sense. You must, again, twist it to absurdity.

And there are hundreds of such verses you must:
a) throw out of the Bible (Mt 28:19)
b) invent strange explanations like "almost reality" (Lord said to my Lord) or "it happened only in mind" (Jesus's baptism)
c) ignore all together (John chapter 17)
d) talkings and prayings of the Son to Father you must dismiss as "only examples without literal meaning"
e) sayings of Father from heaven when the Son was on the Earth you must dismiss as a theatre for the audience, without any real distinction between Father and Son
f) you must ignore places where Jesus says that He and His Father are two independent witnesses

You must also:
a) ignore the first church and its writings
b) ignore first christian creeds that are universally accepted by Christianity

If you willingly reject the truth that there is a real Father and a real intermediate between Father and us, Jesus Christ, I am afraid your salvation is in a danger.

 

[Noose]

Jews, muslims, mormons, JW, oneness


"I am going to my Father... My Father is greater than I" J 14:28
"...that hour knows no man, nor angels, nor the Son, only Father" Mk 13:32

If Jesus is both Father and Son, such verses, again, make no sense. You must, again, twist it to absurdity.

And there are hundreds of such verses you must:
a) throw out of the Bible (Mt 28:19)
b) invent strange explanations like "almost reality" (Lord said to my Lord) or "it happened only in mind" (Jesus's baptism)
c) ignore all together (John chapter 17)
d) talkings and prayings of the Son to Father you must dismiss as "only examples without literal meaning"
e) sayings of Father from heaven when the Son was on the Earth you must dismiss as a theatre for the audience, but having no real distinction between Father and Son
f) you must ignore places where Jesus says that He and His Father are two independent witnesses

Nope.

You are the one who has to twist everything including a simple question; Is the Father a being when He is alone? the eighth time i'm asking. Yes or No would do it.

The father is greater than the son because Father and son are offices. The teacher is greater than the student. The Mother is greater than the daughter- it doesn't really matter whether the daughter has a daughter because we are talking about offices here.

Jesus is going to the Father because He takes up the new role as the Father as we take up the new role as His sons. That's why all over the bible it is prophesied "...i'll be their God and they will be my Children..".

a-f. There are hundreds or even thousands and none says the Father is not the son and the son is not the Holy spirit and none says three distinct persons in one being.

You must also:
a) ignore the first church and its writings
b) ignore first christian creeds that are universally accepted by Christianity

The bible says "..in these last days, God has spoken to us through His son.." It never said He has or will speak to us through extra-biblical creeds.
There's nothing like the first church, the idea of the church is every believer from all over the globe through out time (from Jesus' time) starting with Jesus as the chief corner stone, the foundations of the Apostles and believers being added one at a time even today. There's no first or second church, if an idea was wrong in the first century, it would still be wrong today.

 

[trofimus]

Please, for the sake of argument expand on your meaning. Also for a few post now you've been citing Col 2:15, our discussion is about Col 1:15 not 2:15.

Yeah, its Col 1:15.

You defined firstborn as something/someone that is "born as the first in a line", in a line of what? Can you expand and give me an example?

The first child born before other children.

"and she gave birth to her firstborn son...."
Luke 2:7

You also defined it as the "head, somebody who is over something, preeminent", can you give me an example of this from the scriptures so I can better understand what you mean.

"Joel the first-born, and Sapham the second, and Janin the scribe in Basan"
1 Chronicles 5:12

"And I will make him [David] my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth."
Psalm 88:27

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."
R 8:29

It can also indicate a special relationship with God:

"And thou shalt say to Pharao, These things saith the Lord, Israel is my first-born.
Ex 4:22

Also, where have you taken this definition from, is it sourced from somewhere or is it from your own understanding?

Jackson, Wayne. "Was Jesus Created First?" ChristianCourier.com. Access date: July 23, 2018. https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/651-was-jesus-created-first

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1997-02/17330.html

 

[OstrichSmiling]

Jews, muslims, mormons, JW, oneness


"I am going to my Father... My Father is greater than I" J 14:28
"...that hour knows no man, nor angels, nor the Son, only Father" Mk 13:32

If Jesus is both Father and Son, such verses, again, make no sense. You must, again, twist it to absurdity.

And there are hundreds of such verses you must:
a) throw out of the Bible (Mt 28:19)
b) invent strange explanations like "almost reality" (Lord said to my Lord) or "it happened only in mind" (Jesus's baptism)
c) ignore all together (John chapter 17)
d) talkings and prayings of the Son to Father you must dismiss as "only examples without literal meaning"
e) sayings of Father from heaven when the Son was on the Earth you must dismiss as a theatre for the audience, without any real distinction between Father and Son
f) you must ignore places where Jesus says that He and His Father are two independent witnesses

You must also:
a) ignore the first church and its writings
b) ignore first christian creeds that are universally accepted by Christianity

If you willingly reject the truth that there is a real Father and a real intermediate between Father and us, Jesus Christ, I am afraid your salvation is in a danger.

Of course the Father was greater than Emmanuel, Yeshua, Jesus. Jesus, Emmanuel, Yeshua, was God in flesh. Though he had the powers of God to heal, raise the dead, cast out devils, etc.... He was still a body that encased a portion of the great creator and holy spirit that is God.
God isn't the size of a man. God is all who begat himself upon a virgin woman so as to deliver the new covenant to the world. No one can look upon God and live. We're told this in the OT. To bring the new covenant to us and so that Disciples could look upon that master teacher of it, Jesus, Emmanuel, Yeshua, God arrived in human form.

Jesus was God. There is no argument there.

 

[Placid]

Hi,

I had written this to Nehemiah in post 444, page 23:
We must go back to this to establish the right order.

Response: ---
We can understand that the Word, and the Logos are synonymous. The Logos is the ‘all knowing power and wisdom of God’ (Theov). And the Word (Logos) was with God in the beginning. --- Also, the Word was the only begotten Son of God. This is borne out in the Greek terms for God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Theov), and the Word was God Theos).
John 1:18 No one has seen God (Theov) at any time. The only begotten God (Theos) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him

--- Notice two things, --- The Word was ‘begotten of God’ and was called both God (Theos), and ‘the begotten Son of God,’ so it is a ‘unique’ position that no one else can ever attain unto
--- The second thing to notice is that God (Theov) is identified as ‘Father,’ so not only the Father of the Word, who is in His bosom, or in ‘the closest relationship with Him.’ --- But the Eternal Father. --- So when we say, ‘out Father in heaven,’ we are speaking of “The First Cause.” --- The Father of all.

So the ‘Three in heaven are, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.

GodisOne responded in 445 using these verses from 1 John 5:

6 He is the one who came by means of water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah - not with water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth
7 There are three witnesses
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood - and these three are in agreement

Verse 7 is very short because the Manuscript used when the Verses were numbered would obviously have contained the full verses.

The Latin Vulgate published by the Scholar Jerome about 400 AD had the whole verses, so therefore the Douey-Rheims Catholic Bible, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate about 1600 says this;
5:7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

Also the King James Bible which was translated from Greek Manuscripts in 1611, says:
5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

These were the two Authorized Bibles for the hundreds of years since they were published, and are still used today.

The New King James contains both verses, but my NKJ Study Bible includes a footnote saying some mss do not include ...in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit -

The NASB says: 7 For there are three that testify: 8 [j]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
The footnote [j] says: A few mss have …’in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit’
The NIV says the same as above.

But the truth is there whether some want to believe it or not.
Also the phrase, “And these three are one,” has distorted the idea of a trinity, rather than --- ‘three in harmony and purpose.’
Next I will give an example from Deuteronomy 6:4.

 

[posthuman]

You believe that somebody who believes that Jesus Christ does not exist now, is saved, just because he believes that Jesus was God?

For me, this is even worse than JW ideas, even though its hard which of these two heresies is worse.

that would make Jesus not divine, so no.

tbh I'm a dozen pages behind in reading this thread; it's been a busy time for me with my work. so I'm not quite up to speed on the discussion going on.

as for me I know He said 'unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins' - I believe He is God. it's with regard to whether three persons of one God whether one in three manifestations I think so long as we recognize He is the divine Son of God how we wrap our little minds around this amazing appearance of Him in flesh isn't so important as believing He came, died, rose and ascended and is coming again for us. if that makes sense. I hope in a few days to catch up with the thread.

 

[trofimus]

that would make Jesus not divine, so no.

tbh I'm a dozen pages behind in reading this thread; it's been a busy time for me with my work. so I'm not quite up to speed on the discussion going on.

as for me I know He said 'unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins' - I believe He is God. it's with regard to whether three persons of one God whether one in three manifestations I think so long as we recognize He is the divine Son of God how we wrap our little minds around this amazing appearance of Him in flesh isn't so important as believing He came, died, rose and ascended and is coming again for us. if that makes sense. I hope in a few days to catch up with the thread.

Oneness leads them into various heretical positions, for example that Jesus, when died on the cross, was only man because Father (his divine part) left him.

 

[rlm68]

Oneness leads them into various heretical positions, for example that Jesus, when died on the cross, was only man because Father (his divine part) left him.

Since God is a Spirit that became flesh, God exiting the flesh for means of sin atonement does not require more than one being of God. It just required God the Spirit to exit the flesh body. Clearly the Spirit returns back to the body when He resurrects and becomes God in the flesh again.

just another way of viewing it.

 

[trofimus]

Since God is a Spirit that became flesh, God exiting the flesh for means of sin atonement does not require more than one being of God. It just required God the Spirit to exit the flesh body. Clearly the Spirit returns back to the body when He resurrects and becomes God in the flesh again.

just another way of viewing it.

So, Jesus ceased to be God before He died on the cross, He died as a mere human for us and He became God again after he was resurrected.

If this is not a heresy, I do not know what is.

 

[Noose]

So, Jesus ceased to be God before He died on the cross, He died as a mere human for us and He became God again after he was resurrected.

If this is not a heresy, I do not know what is.

You are trying to put words in people's mouth to validate your already false doctrine. No one said Jesus ceases to be God because God is an eternal spirit. Jesus overcame death for us.
The idea of sin/death is that it is also eternal and has a strangle hold over man because man is with sin. The only way to overcome this is by becoming one with God (who is the spirit that gives eternal life)- and how do we become one with God? by taking up the authority of the sons and He our Father who indwells us as the Holy spirit. Same script as Jesus, He lead the way for us so that we may believe that He being our Father will raise us (His sons).

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you,He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit,who dwells within you.

John 6:40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again, your doctrine is destroyed here.

 

[trofimus]

You are trying to put words in people's mouth to validate your already false doctrine. No one said Jesus ceases to be God because God is an eternal spirit. Jesus overcame death for us.
The idea of sin/death is that it is also eternal and has a strangle hold over man because man is with sin. The only way to overcome this is by becoming one with God (who is the spirit that gives eternal life)- and how do we become one with God? by taking up the authority of the sons and He our Father who indwells us as the Holy spirit. Same script as Jesus, He lead the way for us so that we may believe that He being our Father will raise us (His sons).

Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit gives you life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you,He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit,who dwells within you.

John 6:40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Again, your doctrine is destroyed here.

Did Jesus die on the cross as fully God and fully man or did He die as a mere human? Simple answer.

 

[Noose]

Did Jesus die on the cross as fully God and fully man or did He die as a mere human? Simple answer.

Zacharia 12:10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

So was the Almighty God speaking in Zacharia 12:10 as a man or God?

The false idea of a full God and full man only comes from Trinity doctrine because they think there's such a thing as a half God and half man. God is God even in the shape of a man. I told you the son of God is an authority that the fullness of God occupied at one point and overcame death for us.

 

[trofimus]

Zacharia 12:10“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirita of grace and supplication. They will look onb me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

So was the Almighty God speaking in Zacharia 12:10 as a man or God?

The false idea of a full God and full man only comes from Trinity doctrine because they think there's such a thing as a half God and half man. God is God even in the shape of a man. I told you the son of God is an authority that the fullness of God occupied at one point and overcame death for us.

Was Jesus God when he died on the cross for our sins? Yes/no.

Was Jesus man, when he died on the cross for our sins? Yes/no.

 

[Noose]

Was Jesus God when he died on the cross for our sins? Yes/no.

Yes

Was Jesus man, when he died on the cross for our sins? Yes/no.

Yes