YOKE OF BONDAGE

[Studyman]

I think and interesting thing about the old Testament prophets is that they seem to talk most about Idol worship and the impression of the poor. We had talked to earlier about Mammon. we talked about how if one is serving Mammon one is not holding to God. I think that's basically Idolatry. serving Mammon of course is also likely going to involve oppression of the poor.
we do show our faith by our works
James 2: 1. My brothers, don't hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory with partiality. 2. For if a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, comes into your synagogue, and a poor man in filthy clothing also comes in; 3. and you pay special attention to him who wears the fine clothing, and say, "Sit here in a good place;" and you tell the poor man, "Stand there," or "Sit by my footstool;" 4. haven't you shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5. Listen, my beloved brothers. Didn't God choose those who are poor in this world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the Kingdom which he promised to those who love him? 6. But you have dishonored the poor man. Don't the rich oppress you, and personally drag you before the courts? 7. Don't they blaspheme the honorable name by which you are called? 8. However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10. For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12. So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom. 13. For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. 14. What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 15. And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 16. and one of you tells them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled;" and yet you didn't give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself. 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
what do you mean by the holy Sabbath is a work of God? what do you mean by walking in the Sabbath? are these phrases from the scriptures? God's instructions are to walk by the spirit.
Galatians 5: 25. If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit.

I think it's interesting to note that law here Galatians 5: 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
does not have a definite article with it. so I believe a possible translation is also law. so a reasonable translation would be if we are led by the spirit we are not under rules.
I'm not sure why you ask if Jesus intended for us to choose him. I think the answer would clearly be yes.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (this would include God's Holy, Sanctified Sabbath)

"But if you are led by the Spirit, (God's Law) you are not under the law".

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths,(Which God has before ordained) where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

But they said, We will not walk therein.

17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.


"Therefore it is Lawful to do "Good" on the Sabbath.

 

[Studyman]

actually I think we are Justified apart from laws about loving your neighbor. we are Justified freely. not on the basis of works that we have done. on the basis of the work that Christ did. once having been Justified, we pursue good works. not in order to be justified, but because we already are.


the thing that Abraham believed is that he would have a child, a son, through Sarah, and that by that he, Abraham, would become the father of many nations. I agree that Romans chapter 4 doesn't make void any scriptures. yes, no doubt Christ manifests himself to people who are righteous. but the New Covenant comes into effect with Jesus' blood.


do you believe that Abraham was born again?


Abraham was blessed because of his obedience. He was declared righteous because of his faith, because he believe God's promise about having a son.


looks like this is kind of a crucial issue here for us. What is it that Abraham believed for which he was declared righteous?


Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."


I think this is the passage Paul is referring to
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward." 2 Abram said, "Lord GOD, what will you give me, seeing I go childless, and he who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?" 3 Abram said, "Look, to me you have given no offspring: and, look, one born in my house is my heir." 4 Look, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir, but he who will come forth out of your own body will be your heir." 5 He brought him outside, and said, "Look now toward the sky, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And Abram believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
what is it that Abraham believes God for, what is Abraham believing? it is that God will give him a son, and that he will be the father of a great multitude. And not end up childless. that's what Abraham believed.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[Dan_473]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Mark 1: 14. Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News."

the righteous Deeds of Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation, their fellows, is indeed nothing when it comes to justification, being right in God's eyes. because everyone has sinned. and the result of sin, any sin, is death.

that is not a twisting of Paul's words. obedience towards God does mean something. believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.



this is a description of the Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation

Romans 3: 10. As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13. "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14. "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17. The way of peace, they haven't known." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." and that's also me and you. in the absolute sense, in what God requires. because the outcome of sin, any sin, is death.
Matthew 11: 11. Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant.

you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account.

so how do we reconcile them? the key is the context of what James is talking about James 2: 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. there it is, show me. James is talking about show me. Abraham was justified earlier, but the fruit of that justification was visible when he offered Isaac.

 

[Dan_473]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Continued

so it is with the Christian walk. we are Justified freely by faith. the principle of faith. believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. Then, the fruit of the spirit begins to grow.

God did bless Abraham, and prophesied About Eve. he cursed the snake. he said Abraham was righteous based on what Abraham believed.

no, Paul is not talking about the works of the law added after Abraham. because of Abraham was declared righteous because of his actions, then he can boast about that.

Romans 2 in context
Romans 2: 12. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified
Paul is leading up to the idea that no one is justified by doing the law. Because as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

yes indeed, do be a doer of the word. because what can we say about someone who says they believe yet the fruit of the spirit does not grow in their life. in fact what if we see the works of the flesh increasing? we would say they are probably deceived, and do not actually believe the gospel.

yes indeed, do keep the Commandments of God subsequent to being justified by faith. but which Commandments? Commandments about tassels? about executing people who murder? no, I say keep the Commandment to Bear one another's burdens, and to love one another as Jesus loved us.

 

[Dan_473]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

continuing on

you reference the story of the Rich Young Ruler. two important things to note. this is taking place under the old Covenant. Jesus also tells some lepers to do things under the old Covenant, that is to show themselves to the priest and offer a sacrifice for their purification, I believe. so we would not want to think that we ought to do everything that Jesus tells everyone to do Under the old Covenant.

the second important thing to note about the Rich Young Ruler is that he comes asking Jesus what he can do to get eternal life. What he, emphasizing himself, can do emphasizing his actions. he does not come asking Jesus for the free gift of eternal life.

I think this is an amazing lesson for those who wish to be justified, to be declared righteous on the basis a following the Commandments. if you believe that you can achieve that following the Commandments perfectly, without messing up, then you have no need of a savior. just keep the Commandments.

I found something very different in myself. Romans 7: 7. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? May it never be! However, I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." 8. But sin, finding occasion through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of coveting. For apart from the law, sin is dead. 9. I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10. The commandment, which was for life, this I found to be for death; 11. for sin, finding occasion through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
that's the experience that I had to. the law about coveting actually produced in me more coveting. it did not lead to life.

but if a person believes that they can keep the Commandments completely, purely, perfectly without sin, then the gospel isn't intended for them.

The gospel is for sinners.

 

[Studyman]

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the Law.​

(Galatians 3:21)​

then you err.

God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.​

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​

(Romans 7:25-26)​

man is justified by the 'law of faith' - so that He is just and the one who justifies the one who has faith in Jesus.
the 'law of faith' is exactly this: He justifies the one who has faith in Him. if: believe, then: He justifies. that's His law. grace, mercy, peace, true rest.

and what is justification?

The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.​

(Romans 4:23-25)​

it is the dead brought to life - even He:

I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.​

(Revelation 1:18)​

by this law of faith the dead are raised to life:

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. ​

(Ephesians 2:4-5)​

because it is God who justifies, and those He justifies are brothers ans sisters of The Firstborn:

For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.​

(Romans 8:29-30)​

born into what? into life, from death. resurrected unto eternal life. how?

anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over Him. ​

(Romans 6:7-9) ​

through His own death and resurrection: which we enter into, according to 'the law of faith' - by believing on Him.




oh but you think the law of faith is good works of the Law.
well, i suggest reading more than the one verse of chapter 2 of Romans that you are acquainted with.. and i suggest reading it in some version other than the SSV.

God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

True,

The Jews refused to "Glorify God" as Abraham did, and as a result their foolish hearts were darkened. They still claimed to be of God, and performed their version of the Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins. But Paul is explaining that Jesus is the High Priest now, that we must rely on Him for remission of sins, not "works of the Law" that Moses gave them until He came.

Your implication that Paul is speaking about "works of the Law" being "honor and respect to God" that is commanded, or "obedience to God" that is commanded is a deception. God has shown mercy on folks since the beginning and has given instruction on who receives His Mercy in the Examples He had written for our admonition.

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Zechariahs believed God as did Abraham, and it is prudent to note that God blessed Him as well.

I believe you have been tricked into believing that "works of the Law" means Love God, and Love your neighbors, along with the temporary priesthood duties God "ADDED" until the True Priest arrived.

I think this is why you reject so much of God's Word, because you believe Paul is teaching against ALL of God's Commandments and not just the "Works of the Law" for remission of sins that the Pharisees were still pushing.

As Paul said.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Once a person submits to God's Word, and understands that Paul's struggle with the Mainstream Preachers of his time was over a Priesthood that was no longer in force, and that these were the "works of the Law" for remission of sins that Paul was speaking to in Romans and Galatians, then the entire Bible fit's together like a glove.

You will then be able to understand, instead of ignore the rest of Pauls instructions.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Like Abraham)

 

[Studyman]

Mark 1: 14. Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News."

the righteous Deeds of Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation, their fellows, is indeed nothing when it comes to justification, being right in God's eyes. because everyone has sinned. and the result of sin, any sin, is death.

that is not a twisting of Paul's words. obedience towards God does mean something. believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.



this is a description of the Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation

Romans 3: 10. As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13. "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14. "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17. The way of peace, they haven't known." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." and that's also me and you. in the absolute sense, in what God requires. because the outcome of sin, any sin, is death.
Matthew 11: 11. Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant.

you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account.

so how do we reconcile them? the key is the context of what James is talking about James 2: 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. there it is, show me. James is talking about show me. Abraham was justified earlier, but the fruit of that justification was visible when he offered Isaac.

"I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant."

Of course you don't believe Paul is speaking about the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by Moses for the remission of sins until the Seed should come. Doing so changes the dynamic of the entire New Testament.

So to preserve the religious traditions of the land, God's instructions must be considered no different than man's instructions.

How can a man glorify God as God, if you equate "man's good works" with God's Works. Isn't this what the religious men did in Paul's time?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where God commanded to reject believing on those who He sent?

And can you also show me where the promise of the New Covenant mentioned eliminating or altering the "shalls and Shall nots"?

 

[gb9]

"I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant."

Of course you don't believe Paul is speaking about the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by Moses for the remission of sins until the Seed should come. Doing so changes the dynamic of the entire New Testament.

So to preserve the religious traditions of the land, God's instructions must be considered no different than man's instructions.

How can a man glorify God as God, if you equate "man's good works" with God's Works. Isn't this what the religious men did in Paul's time?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where God commanded to reject believing on those who He sent?

And can you also show me where the promise of the New Covenant mentioned eliminating or altering the "shalls and Shall nots"?

this would be a good opportunity to provide a source that translates the word " law " as being multiple . the greek language does not.

the pope and benny hinn did not write the greek language.

 

[Studyman]

Mark 1: 14. Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand! Repent, and believe in the Good News."

the righteous Deeds of Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation, their fellows, is indeed nothing when it comes to justification, being right in God's eyes. because everyone has sinned. and the result of sin, any sin, is death.

that is not a twisting of Paul's words. obedience towards God does mean something. believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Now I declare to you, brothers, the Gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2. by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4. that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.



this is a description of the Old Testament people who were righteous relative to their generation

Romans 3: 10. As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. 11. There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. 12. They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." 13. "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" 14. "whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood. 16. Destruction and misery are in their ways. 17. The way of peace, they haven't known." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." and that's also me and you. in the absolute sense, in what God requires. because the outcome of sin, any sin, is death.
Matthew 11: 11. Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant.

you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account.

so how do we reconcile them? the key is the context of what James is talking about James 2: 18. Yes, a man will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. there it is, show me. James is talking about show me. Abraham was justified earlier, but the fruit of that justification was visible when he offered Isaac.

"you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account."



Yes, he was justified at the first time God gave him instruction.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

So isn't Abram doing as God instructed him? What if Abram had chosen the same path as Eve? Would he still be blessed? Would he still be justified in your religion?

Could he have had faith in God, and decided God's instructions were a burden to him so he didn't honor God by following them?

Isn't the Word which became Flesh telling Abram the same thing He told me.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

You say the answer is "NO". But the Scriptures say Abram obeyed the instruction and it was for this reason he was given a son to begin with.

 

[Dan_473]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

continuing on

and yes as we've talked about before, Romans 3: 27 is referring to the principle of faith and verse 28 is talking about the Deeds or works of law, works of rules.

amen the blood of bulls and goats doesn't take away sins. There is only one Lamb of God.

A little leaven does leaven the whole lump.

Romans 8: 16. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17. and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.
that's not something Satan can imitate. The Spirit testifying within us. it actually takes a lot more faith to accept justification by grace through faith apart from works then it does to believe that you are Justified and that you have some hand in it, some role in the works of your hands have a part in your justification. That's why some people have faith to regard all days alike. and others still want to regard one day above another. and we know to accept the one who is weak in faith.

 

[posthuman]

Your implication that Paul is speaking about "works of the Law" being "honor and respect to God" that is commanded, or "obedience to God" that is commanded is a deception.

God has shown mercy on folks since the beginning and has given instruction on who receives His Mercy in the Examples He had written for our admonition.

amen

For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; ​

and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee.
(Psalm 86:5) ​

​

Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved​

(Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13)​

​

This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
(John 6:29)​

​

To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Romans 4:5)​

​

But Christ as a son over His own house; Whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
(Hebrews 3:6)​

by grace i have been saved, not of works, that every mouth be shut and no man can boast
the Perfect Way has chosen me; i choose a Perfect Way.

 

[Dan_473]

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I think satan has deceived "many" through the very cleaver twisting of Paul's words that Abel's honor and obedience towards God means nothing, that Noah's obedience and honor towards God means nothing, that Abraham's honor and obedience means nothing, that Caleb's honor and obedience means nothing, that Zechariahs honor and obedience to God means nothing. It certainly convinced Eve that honor and obedience to God means nothing,

Romans 4: 2. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

When a man rejects all the religious voices and just studies the Word, it becomes clear that Paul is speaking about the "Works of the Law" instituted by the Word which became Flesh, for the atonement of sins until the Seed should come. satan has cleverly convinced many that Paul isn't speaking about the "atonement Laws" the Jews were still pushing on the Gentiles and Galatians. Laws that Abraham didn't have as Paul points out. Many have been convinced that Paul is speaking about "ALL" of God's instructions, not just the Laws that were specifically for the justification of sins.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was given instructions, and He followed them, Eve was given instructions and rejected them. For this reason God blessed Abraham and cursed Eve. It's in your Bible.

If a man understands that Paul is speaking about the "Law of Works" that was "ADDED" and to be in place until the Christ came, everything falls in perfect place.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (As Abraham was)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, (Not the sacrificial "Works of the Levitical Priesthood) when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (A command from God)

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? (Which Laws, taking a goat to a Levite Priest? NO!!!)

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Ex. 20, Lev. 19.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
"Which"

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I could go on and on. Every Verse in the Bible teaches this truth. But if men have been deceived about one point, what does the scriptures say?

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump"

The entire Bible is changed by this one doctrinal issue. Is Paul referring to God's "good, Just, Holy and Spiritual Laws in Romans 3? Or is he talking about the justification Laws given by Moses through the Levitical Priesthood "Until the Seed Should come? A Priesthood that Jesus changed and became.

Laws Abraham most certainly didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet. Laws the Jews were still pushing because they didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah, because they didn't "Glorify God", as did Abraham, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Everything fits together when a man accepts this Biblical truth.

This is the reason there is so much confusion in modern day Babylon. This is why Jesus says to "Come out of her".

This is the crux of our disagreement, and the reason why we will probably never see eye to eye.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

continuing on

I think that in Romans 3: 27, in that section, The Works of the law can be any set of laws from the Old Testament you wish to insert in there. It can be the laws given at Sinai. It can be the laws given to Noah. it can be the law given to Adam. it doesn't matter, I can't do any of them perfectly. In fact the more I learn about them, the more I realize how far I fall short.

everything in the scriptures put together when one accepts justification by grace through faith apart from works.

Jesus never taught us to come out of believing in him. and that believing, we have life in his name.

Satan cannot duplicate the testimony of the Holy Spirit In My Heart. if he could, that testimony would not be of any value. But now, I do keep the commandments of Jesus, to love one another, and he did in fact send the spirit which testifies to my heart.

 

[Dan_473]

"I disagree that in Romans chapter 4 The Works of the law are referring to just certain specific things in the law of Moses. I think it is talking about Good Works of any kind. no, not all of God's instructions, because that would include rejecting believing in him whom he has sent. But all of the laws given in the law of Moses. The you shall and you shall nots commonly associated with the old Covenant."

Of course you don't believe Paul is speaking about the Priesthood "Works of the Law" given by Moses for the remission of sins until the Seed should come. Doing so changes the dynamic of the entire New Testament.

So to preserve the religious traditions of the land, God's instructions must be considered no different than man's instructions.

How can a man glorify God as God, if you equate "man's good works" with God's Works. Isn't this what the religious men did in Paul's time?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where God commanded to reject believing on those who He sent?

And can you also show me where the promise of the New Covenant mentioned eliminating or altering the "shalls and Shall nots"?

it sounds like you're saying that the law of Moses are man's instructions. yes?

If so, I strongly disagree. the scripture say that God spoke to Moses, and Moses wrote down God's words.

the rest of the post appears to be a straw man argument, where you want me to defend things that I never put forward. except one thing, the part about the eliminating or altering the shalls and Shall nots. they are not to be eliminated or altered, but we are not under them which we see in Galatians where it says that if we are led by the spirit we are not under the law, which can also be translated as under law.

 

[Dan_473]

"you bring up an excellent point about James asking the question that wasn't Abraham Justified by works when he offered Isaac? the answer of course is no. Abraham was justified many years earlier, before Isaac was even born. we see that clearly in Romans, Galatians, and in the Genesis account."



Yes, he was justified at the first time God gave him instruction.

1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

So isn't Abram doing as God instructed him? What if Abram had chosen the same path as Eve? Would he still be blessed? Would he still be justified in your religion?

Could he have had faith in God, and decided God's instructions were a burden to him so he didn't honor God by following them?

Isn't the Word which became Flesh telling Abram the same thing He told me.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

You say the answer is "NO". But the Scriptures say Abram obeyed the instruction and it was for this reason he was given a son to begin with.

I disagree that Abraham was justified multiple times. In Romans chapter 4 we read that the specific experience that Abraham had where God told him that he would be the father of many nations, told him that he would have a son, that's when Abraham believed, and that's when it was counted as righteousness for him. once having been counted as righteous, he didn't have to be counted again and again... Today he's righteous, the next day he's not counted righteous, the next day he's counted righteous again, and so on.

we do take up our cross everyday, and follow Jesus everyday. Not in order to get Justified, but because we are Justified, counted righteous as Abraham was. that is, if we accept the gospel, believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.

this is a classic straw man argument here "You say the answer is "NO"." no I say the answer is yes, and I showed how it all fits together.

 

[Dan_473]

View attachment 185511




amen

For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; ​

and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee.​

(Psalm 86:5) ​

​

Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved​

(Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13)​

​

This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.​

(John 6:29)​

​

To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

(Romans 4:5)​

​

But Christ as a son over His own house; Whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ​

(Hebrews 3:6)​

by grace i have been saved, not of works, that every mouth be shut and no man can boast
the Perfect Way has chosen me; i choose a Perfect Way.

love the proof using set theory

And amen, that every mouth may be shut

 

[Dan_473]

many people confuse the commandments of Jesus with things like the Ten Commandments. Jesus definitely did say if you love me keep my Commandments.

I do not believe that Jesus, the word which became flesh, is the same as yhwh in every respect.

that's because of verses like this one
Psalm 110: 1. the Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
the Lord who is speaking here is yhwh. he is speaking to the Son, who would take on flesh and be named Jesus.

Jesus isn't talking to himself in the verse, nor is he asking himself to sit at his own right hand.

so the commandments of Jesus are not the same as the Commandments of yhwh.

these are some of the Commandments of yhwh
Exodus 20: 1. And the Lord spoke all these words: 2. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

 

[Studyman]

I disagree that Abraham was justified multiple times. In Romans chapter 4 we read that the specific experience that Abraham had where God told him that he would be the father of many nations, told him that he would have a son, that's when Abraham believed, and that's when it was counted as righteousness for him. once having been counted as righteous, he didn't have to be counted again and again... Today he's righteous, the next day he's not counted righteous, the next day he's counted righteous again, and so on.

we do take up our cross everyday, and follow Jesus everyday. Not in order to get Justified, but because we are Justified, counted righteous as Abraham was. that is, if we accept the gospel, believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.

this is a classic straw man argument here "You say the answer is "NO"." no I say the answer is yes, and I showed how it all fits together.

I see your point. Abraham could have rejected God's Word's anytime he thought they were too burdensome for Him and he would still be justified in your religion.

I understand the Preaching, I just don't believe that was what God had the example of Abraham's faithfulness towards God written for us.

 

[Studyman]

many people confuse the commandments of Jesus with things like the Ten Commandments. Jesus definitely did say if you love me keep my Commandments.

I do not believe that Jesus, the word which became flesh, is the same as yhwh in every respect.

that's because of verses like this one
Psalm 110: 1. the Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
the Lord who is speaking here is yhwh. he is speaking to the Son, who would take on flesh and be named Jesus.

Jesus isn't talking to himself in the verse, nor is he asking himself to sit at his own right hand.

so the commandments of Jesus are not the same as the Commandments of yhwh.

these are some of the Commandments of yhwh
Exodus 20: 1. And the Lord spoke all these words: 2. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.

I know you don't believe "ALL" things were created by Him. Nor do you believe "all things" that are written in the Law and Prophets. You have made that abundantly clear in your posts. That would make the 10 Commandments which were "made" His, the Christ's, Commandments. That changes everything. So you can't believe "ALL" that is written about Him. And you can't believe "ALL" things were created by Him.

"so the commandments of Jesus are not the same as the Commandments of yhwh."

John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I just don't believe that Jesus didn't get His Direction from His Father, both as the Word, and as a man. It just doesn't line up with the scriptures.

Psalm 110: 1. the Lord says to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet."
the Lord who is speaking here is yhwh. he is speaking to the Son, who would take on flesh and be named Jesus.

Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't sit at God's Right Hand before He became Flesh? Where was He then?

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? Where was he?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

You preach He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? So where will He ascend if it isn't to the Right Hand of His father where He was before?

Col. 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

In your religion, was Abraham part of Christ's Church?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Why was he glad Dan? Could it be because Jesus, as the Word, gave him the "Good News of the Gospel"?

John 14:
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Do you believe the Father gave Him commandments on what to create? What to make Holy and Clean? Or did Jesus, as the Word, create these things apart from His Father?

The whole set of examples that were written for our admonition, do you believe the "Son" followed the Commandments of His Father in preparing them?

What God led them out of Egypt? What was the Rock they all drank from? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't show Noah how to create the Ark? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't create the Covenant with Israel or Promise a New Covenant where He will Write HIS Laws, that He created, on our hearts? Are you preaching it wasn't the Word which became Flesh that provided a sacrifice in the place of Abraham's Son?

And by whose direction did the Word create "ALL" Things?

John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

This discussion has been great Dan. I finally get to the crux of our disagreements and the truth about your religion. I don't expect anything to change, but the exercise was great and a huge Faith builder for me.

I hope others reading along can see the point of the post and then tie it to all the warnings the Word which became Flesh gave to us, both as the Word, and as the Man Jesus..

 

[gb9]

I know you don't believe "ALL" things were created by Him. Nor do you believe "all things" that are written in the Law and Prophets. You have made that abundantly clear in your posts. That would make the 10 Commandments which were "made" His, the Christ's, Commandments. That changes everything. So you can't believe "ALL" that is written about Him. And you can't believe "ALL" things were created by Him.



John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I just don't believe that Jesus didn't get His Direction from His Father, both as the Word, and as a man. It just doesn't line up with the scriptures.



Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't sit at God's Right Hand before He became Flesh? Where was He then?

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? Where was he?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

You preach He wasn't sitting at the Right Hand of God before He became Flesh? So where will He ascend if it isn't to the Right Hand of His father where He was before?

Col. 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

In your religion, was Abraham part of Christ's Church?

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Why was he glad Dan? Could it be because Jesus, as the Word, gave him the "Good News of the Gospel"?

John 14:
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Do you believe the Father gave Him commandments on what to create? What to make Holy and Clean? Or did Jesus, as the Word, create these things apart from His Father?

The whole set of examples that were written for our admonition, do you believe the "Son" followed the Commandments of His Father in preparing them?

What God led them out of Egypt? What was the Rock they all drank from? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't show Noah how to create the Ark? Are you saying the Word which became Flesh didn't create the Covenant with Israel or Promise a New Covenant where He will Write HIS Laws, that He created, on our hearts? Are you preaching it wasn't the Word which became Flesh that provided a sacrifice in the place of Abraham's Son?

And by whose direction did the Word create "ALL" Things?

John 7:
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

This discussion has been great Dan. I finally get to the crux of our disagreements and the truth about your religion. I don't expect anything to change, but the exercise was great and a huge Faith builder for me.

I hope others reading along can see the point of the post and then tie it to all the warnings the Word which became Flesh gave to us, both as the Word, and as the Man Jesus..

more oneness lies.

you see, the mount of transfiguration experience blows all this out of the water. everything you said here.

when God the Father said of the Son , " hear Him ". while Moses ( the Law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) were their. this elevtates and seperates Christ's words in red above the O.T.

 

[Studyman]

more oneness lies.

you see, the mount of transfiguration experience blows all this out of the water. everything you said here.

when God the Father said of the Son , " hear Him ". while Moses ( the Law ) and Elijah ( the prophets ) were their. this elevtates and seperates Christ's words in red above the O.T.

I know this is mainstream teaching. It's just that I don't believe your understanding of the vision erases or makes Void ANY of God's Words, let alone the entire Old Testament.

I also don't believe the widespread religious teaching that Jesus the Man taught differently than He did where He was before.

I see where it would be a natural human reaction to try and fit Him into the limitation of a human mind, and to create an image of Him that relates and fits the human mind. I believe Paul explained why religious man, The Jews, went off the rails in the examples the Christ had written for us.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

There can be no question that Mainstream Christianity has indeed created an "image" of the Christ. It is known world wide as the "Christian God" and is present in most of their churches, and homes. This behavior is expressly forbidden in the First of the 10 Commandments.

Paul explains that religious man then worshipped the "image" of God they created in their mind, more than the True God whose Word's we are discussing on this forum.

Rom. 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Of course most of the Religious men of his time didn't believe Paul when he exposed this to them. They called him names, they accused him of sinning against God, they tried to discredit him, silence him, even kill him for exposing this truth.

It is truly a fascinating read. "there is nothing new under the sun".