Christ is God

[Noose]

You are limiting God by your physical experience. You cannot be on various places in one time, because you are a 4D being, isolated in one physical body.

Do you believe that Jesus as a person existed before His birth in Betlehem?

You are the one trying to limit God with your trinity description.
According to you, Jesus was on earth and the Father was in heaven (not earth), these are two places therefore they can't share one being. In this argument, at times i feel like i'm the one supporting trinity

Do i believe Jesus existed before His birth? I believe He is the one and only Almighty God. He met Abraham as Melchizedek/ He created all that was created/ He commanded Adam & Eve/ He is the rock of ages/ He is the ancient of days.

 

[trofimus]

Do i believe Jesus existed before His birth? I believe He is the one and only Almighty God. He met Abraham as Melchizedek/ He created all that was created/ He commanded Adam & Eve/ He is the rock of ages/ He is the ancient of days.

Did Jesus exist as a distinct personality, "with God", before he was born physically?

If not, what about: "In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with the God"

 

[Noose]

Did Jesus exist as a distinct personality, "with God", before he was born physically?
If not, what about: "In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with the God"

That is not distinct personality; God is eternal attributes that are true, found in His spirit, expressed as His word.
The attributes are found in the spirit. For instance- the spirit of Knowledge and wisdom
The spirit is expressed as the word - word of knowledge and wisdom which is creation.

This applies to all attributes. For instance- God is love found in the spirit of love, expressed as word which became flesh and died for us (the greatest of all love).

You have to know that the spirit is the mind/consciousness and how does one express what is in their mind? by their actions (works of the flesh) and/or words that they speak.

The word of God is how the spirit of God is expressed- the reason said both His words and flesh are the bread of life. At one point He said, if they don't believe His words, they should at least believe the works - because it meant the same thing which is expression of the spirit of God.

So, when the scripture says the word was with God it is with this respect only; the attributes in the spirit which is in the word. It is not a person separate from the spirit and the attribute.

 

[trofimus]

That is not distinct personality; God is eternal attributes that are true, found in His spirit, expressed as His word.
The attributes are found in the spirit. For instance- the spirit of Knowledge and wisdom
The spirit is expressed as the word - word of knowledge and wisdom which is creation.

This applies to all attributes. For instance- God is love found in the spirit of love, expressed as word which became flesh and died for us (the greatest of all love).

You have to know that the spirit is the mind/consciousness and how does one express what is in their mind? by their actions (works of the flesh) and/or words that they speak.

The word of God is how the spirit of God is expressed- the reason said both His words and flesh are the bread of life. At one point He said, if they don't believe His words, they should at least believe the works - because it meant the same thing which is expression of the spirit of God.

So, when the scripture says the word was with God it is with this respect only; the attributes in the spirit which is in the word. It is not a person separate from the spirit and the attribute.

You do not understand what Logos represents in the time of John.

Logos was a basic princip of philosophy. Then, just before Christ came, Philo of Alexandria used Logos as a name for a being, who naturally proceeds from God. It was not any attribute.
John said that this Logos was Jesus Christ.

Your ideas are simply out of cultural and church context.

 

[Noose]

You do not understand what Logos represents in the time of John.

Logos was a basic princip of philosophy. Then, just before Christ came, Philo of Alexandria used Logos as a name for a being, who naturally proceeds from God. It was not any attribute.
John said that this Logos was Jesus Christ.

Your ideas are simply out of cultural and church context.

Philo was not appointed by God and his ideas are definitely out of sync with the scripture. The distinction in John 1:1 is necessary but it doesn't mean they are two persons. We know for sure that it is one person and a clear example of how the word came from God/ Jesus came from God/ Son came from the Father is in Malachi 3:1, also as prophesied in Isaiah 40:3 and explained in Mark 1

Mal 3:1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LordAlmighty.

Isa 40:
3A voice of one calling:
“In the wilderness prepare
the way for the Lorda ;
make straight in the desert
a highway for our God....

Mark 1:
1The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,a the Son of God,b 2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:

“I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way”c —
3“a voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’ ”d
4And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6John wore clothing made of camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you withe water, but he will baptize you withf the Holy Spirit.”

9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

In Malachi, God says He is coming on earth and He quickly changes and calls Himself the messenger of the covenant when on earth right in that prophesy thereby drawing a distinction between His authority in heaven and His authority on earth. But we know from Malachi that it is the same person not two persons. This is the same thing in John 1:1- a distinction is necessary but it doesn't mean two persons.

Isaiah calls Jesus God and from Marks explanation, we know the messenger of the covenant who was promised in Malachi is Jesus. But we also know that the master sends the messenger by becoming the messenger Himself.

 

[trofimus]

Philo was not appointed by God and his ideas are definitely out of sync with the scripture.

Actually, not so much. His ideas are very out of sync with your intepretation of Scriptures, but your interpretation of Scriptures is also very much out of sync with historical christianity. John was not inventing terms, he used common used terms of his time. You cannot invent your own meanings and put them into 2,000 old text.

The distinction in John 1:1 is necessary but it doesn't mean they are two persons. We know for sure that it is one person and a clear example of how the word came from God/ Jesus came from God/ Son came from the Father is in Malachi 3:1....

Or, we can read what John is saying next:

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was with God in the beginning.
The Logos became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[Noose]

Actually, not so much. His ideas are very out of sync with your intepretation of Scriptures, but your interpretation of Scriptures is also very much out of sync with historical christianity. John was not inventing terms, he used common used terms of his time. You cannot invent your own meanings and put them into 2,000 old text.


Or, we can read what John is saying next:

In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Nope.

Your word is with you (in your mind/spirit before being spoken) and your word is you because if you confess to killing someone, you will be jailed, they can not isolate your word and jail it while you walk free. It would be absurd for Philo or anyone to think that your word is a distinct person from yourself.

The Logos became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Malachi 3:1 “I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LordAlmighty.

Explains perfectly how the son came from the Father; the Father became the son so they are one person, not two.

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

The word seen as used here means understanding and the relationship is that the Father is in the son- they are not two separate persons. Understanding is something that is within someone and Jesus explains it further here:

John 14:
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


Was Jesus talking about physically seeing a person? of course not, He was talking about understanding and even if He was talking about a person, then that person is Jesus.

 

[trofimus]

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world,
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
John 17

It needs an absurd amount of twisting the text to believe that its just about one person.

 

[Noose]

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me.
I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world,
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
“Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
John 17

It needs an absurd amount of twisting the text to believe that its just about one person.

Nope.

All these makes it two beings, it's already an absurd amount of twisting texts to make it to one being. How can you convince anyone that all these amounts to one being? the joke is on your side.

 

[trofimus]

Nope.

All these makes it two beings, it's already an absurd amount of twisting texts to make it to one being. How can you convince anyone that all these amounts to one being? the joke is on your side.

So you believe that Son and Father are two different beings?

 

[Noose]

So you believe that Son and Father are two different beings?

Nope.

One person, one being.

More scriptures to support, Jesus applied Isa 43 here:

John 8:24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Isa 43:
10“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?”

Isa 44:6Thus says the LORD, the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God but Me. 7Who then is like Me? Let him say so! Let him declare his casebefore Me, since I established an ancient people.Let him foretell the things to come, and what is to take place. 8Do not tremble or fear. Have I not told you and declared it long ago? You are My witnesses! Is there any God but Me? There is no other Rock; I know not one.”

There's no other God or person besides God.

 

[trofimus]

Nope.

One person, one being.

So, read John 17 and tell somebody its just one person. If you will read John 17 without a bias, you will need to conclude that the orthodox Christianity got it right.

 

[trofimus]

There's no other God or person besides God.

There is the God and then there is Logos who is also God. There is Father and then there is the Son.

And also the Holy Spirit, who is also God.

God is one, complex being composed of three personalities that are in unity, are coeternal and share the same power.

 

[Noose]

So, read John 17 and tell somebody its just one person. If you will read John 17 without a bias, you will need to conclude that the orthodox Christianity got it right.

There's nothing new in John 17, just what i have been talking about.

There is the God and then there is Logos who is also God. There is Father and then there is the Son.

And also the Holy Spirit, who is also God.

God is one, complex being composed of three personalities that are in unity, are coeternal and share the same power.

Malachi 3:1 is recommended for you. It clearly shows the Father sent the son by becoming the son- no two persons, just one person.

 

[trofimus]

There's nothing new in John 17, just what i have been talking about.

it does not have to be new. Its old. And making your view to be absurd.

Malachi 3:1 is recommended for you. It clearly shows the Father sent the son by becoming the son- no two persons, just one person.

Cherry picking. You have full chapter in John 17 and still, you rather ignore the full and clear chapter and go with "here a little, there a little" position.

 

[Noose]

it does not have to be new. Its old. And making your view to be absurd.


Cherry picking. You have full chapter in John 17 and still, you rather ignore the full and clear chapter and go with "here a little, there a little" position.

Nope, it doesn;t, it affirms what i have been saying here.

John 17:
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The son (authority on earth) adore the Father (Authority in heaven) and the father Glorifies the son. Father and son are authorities not persons. And how does this show one being?
The joke is till on your side not mine.

 

[trofimus]

Nope, it doesn;t, it affirms what i have been saying here.

John 17:
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The son (authority on earth) adore the Father (Authority in heaven) and the father Glorifies the son. Father and son are authorities not persons. And how does this show one being?
The joke is till on your side not mine.

How can authority of a person talk to another authority of the same person? How can one authority want the other authorty to glorify it? Your view is totally absurd and I think you know it.

 

[Noose]

How can authority of a person talk to another authority of the same person? How can one authority want the other authorty to glorify it? Your view is totally absurd and I think you know it.

No it's not.
The father is an authority in heaven
The son is an authority on earth- the authority on earth submits to the Father
The Holy spirit is an authority that connects the Father and the son
Jesus is an authority above all authorities. It is not a name like Trofimus, it is a name(authority) above all names (Authorities).

And Jesus when He relinquishes His authority here on earth to believers, He acquires a new name/authority:

Rev 3:12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.

yes it is about authorities and not persons. Authorities don't talk, the holder of the authorities is the one talking.

 

[trofimus]

yes it is about authorities and not persons. Authorities don't talk, the holder of the authorities is the one talking.

Talking to whom? Who is "you" and who is "I"?

 

[Noose]

Talking to whom? Who is "you" and who is "I"?

Those should be two beings not one.
but of course not, the son praises the authority of the Father and the Father glorifies the son.
I can praise my job while at home and i can also praise how i'm a good father while at work, doesn't mean two persons or two beings, just one.