Predestination or free will?

[ForestGreenCook]

Danny1988,

Please do not insult fellow believers who do not agree with your calvinistic doctrine by inferring that they do not believe God's Word or that they reject God's Word because they have wicked expectations. That behavior is juvenile and it points to your inability to support your beliefs with Scriptural accuracy.

Also, please follow the conversation. You already replied to the post you quoted above and I responded to your reply.

Here is the discussion:



Danny1988, Post #220:
The elect are slaves of Christ, we don't have a free will. The reprobate are free to sin to their hearts content.


reneweddaybyday, Post #226:
And yet the elect sin even though you claim they are "slaves of Christ" and God is okay with their sin because they are elect?


Danny1988, Post #231:
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.

We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.

So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.


reneweddaybyday, Post #232:
Yes, you sin just as the reprobate sin. In fact, someone could conclude that your sin is greater than the reprobate if, in fact, "that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation".

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it

First God limits trials/temptations so you are not tempted above your ability to endure it.

And God provides an escape.

For you to infer that you are "at war with sin" and yet you still sin (even though God provides a way to escape and God limits the trials so you are not tempted above your ability to endure) is pure fallacy on your part. You sin because you ignore the escape so you may enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

and I am sure you do the same, unless you are Jesus Christ!

 

[preston39]

Faith without works is dead, so no argument there but faith is a gift that God gives us so it's impossible to believe without the gift of faith.
The only action we perform to receive forgiveness of all our sins is to simply believe in Jesus Christ, nothing more and nothing less.

Christ's work on the cross was enough to pay for the sins of the whole world, but only Gods elect will respond by believing the Gospel.

The reprobate cannot believe, because they don't have the Holy Spirit so it's impossible for carnal people to believe spiritual things. You can present the Gospel to them every day but they will never believe unless God opens their spiritual eyes

D...,

I think that is a simplistic approach to G-d's word. Thus, your statement is miss leading too a newbie...too The Bible.

We must have faith, prepare our hearts thru forgiveness, baptism and maintain a righteous life according to G-d's commandments.
There are .......no short cuts....which you infer.

 

[Jewel5712]

Its understanding that God already KNOWS who will accept him or wont but WE still have that choice to make..accept or reject..

 

[preston39]

Man has no action in obtaining eternal salvation because that would be eternal salvation by works, and the scriptures deny that ( Eph 2:9 ). calibob is exactly right. Psalms 103:12, As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. As far as our eternal salvation, God looks at us as kings and priests, Jesus loved us ( those that God gave him, John 6 ) and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Jesus went to the cross as a sacrifice for God's acceptance, not man's acceptance. He was a sacrifice for our sins and God accepted the sacrifice.

F...,
Absolutely wrong and not scriptural.
We must repent, we must be baptized and then live a righteous life according to G-d's commandments and will....with full faith.

Call that process as you wish...it is required.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

and I am sure you do the same, unless you are Jesus Christ!

Please show me a post submitted by me which indicates believers "don't believe in God's Word" or that believers "reject God's word because God doesn't conform to your wicked expectations".

Thank you.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Its understanding that God already KNOWS who will accept him or wont but WE still have that choice to make..accept or reject..

Not so, Psalms 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven, upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. God is all powerful and accomplishes all his will ( Dan 4:16 ), is everywhere present, has foreknowledge, and this is what he saw by his foreknowledge, that is why ,Eph 1, that he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and predestined them to be adopted by Jesus and Jesus did just that by his death on the cross.

 

[Jewel5712]

Not so, Psalms 53:2-3, God looked down from heaven, upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. God is all powerful and accomplishes all his will ( Dan 4:16 ), is everywhere present, has foreknowledge, and this is what he saw by his foreknowledge, that is why ,Eph 1, that he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and predestined them to be adopted by Jesus and Jesus did just that by his death on the cross.

If everyone was predestined and didnt need to choose there WOULD be no NEED for Jesus..Jesus death on the cross made a way that the people that God created could once again be reconcilled to Him since sin had caused seperation..we still have to CHOOSE Jesus as Lord and Savior..the Jews WERR the chosen people of the OT but that all changed in the NT after Jesus death..we arent known to God via nationality or heritage but by our hearts..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Please show me a post submitted by me which indicates believers "don't believe in God's Word" or that believers "reject God's word because God doesn't conform to your wicked expectations".

Thank you.

First of all, the natural man that is void of the Spirit within him, will never believe, accept or confess Christ as his savior according to 1 Cor 2:14. Second, the born again man has two natures dwelling inside of him , the nature of man, ( the flesh ), and the Holy Spirit. Paul says this about his warfare. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not, For the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do. I sometimes lose my battle with the flesh, just as Paul admits he does. Are you saying that you do not?

Danny1988,

Please do not insult fellow believers who do not agree with your calvinistic doctrine by inferring that they do not believe God's Word or that they reject God's Word because they have wicked expectations. That behavior is juvenile and it points to your inability to support your beliefs with Scriptural accuracy.

Also, please follow the conversation. You already replied to the post you quoted above and I responded to your reply.

Here is the discussion:



Danny1988, Post #220:
The elect are slaves of Christ, we don't have a free will. The reprobate are free to sin to their hearts content.


reneweddaybyday, Post #226:
And yet the elect sin even though you claim they are "slaves of Christ" and God is okay with their sin because they are elect?


Danny1988, Post #231:
You missed the point, we don't sin as the reprobate do. They sin because that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation.

We are at war with our flesh, which is still corrupt util we receive our glorified bodies.

So there's a huge difference between the elect and the reprobate, one is at war with sin and the other is in love with sin.


reneweddaybyday, Post #232:
Yes, you sin just as the reprobate sin. In fact, someone could conclude that your sin is greater than the reprobate if, in fact, "that's all they can do, they don't have any power against it, where as we sin because we fall into sin unwittingly by accident. We are not given over to a life of sin, without fighting against the temptation".

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it

First God limits trials/temptations so you are not tempted above your ability to endure it.

And God provides an escape.

For you to infer that you are "at war with sin" and yet you still sin (even though God provides a way to escape and God limits the trials so you are not tempted above your ability to endure) is pure fallacy on your part. You sin because you ignore the escape so you may enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

You are accusing Danny wrongly! Here is what Paul says about his warfare. Romans 7:19-20, For I know that within me (that is , in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If everyone was predestined and didnt need to choose there WOULD be no NEED for Jesus..Jesus death on the cross made a way that the people that God created could once again be reconcilled to Him since sin had caused seperation..we still have to CHOOSE Jesus as Lord and Savior..the Jews WERR the chosen people of the OT but that all changed in the NT after Jesus death..we arent known to God via nationality or heritage but by our hearts..

Did you not read Eph 1 with an open mind,because it very plainly states that God did, indeed, predestined those that he choose.

 

[Jewel5712]

Did you not read Eph 1 with an open mind,because it very plainly states that God did, indeed, predestined those that he choose.

Again..then no need whatsoever for Jesus..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Its understanding that God already KNOWS who will accept him or wont but WE still have that choice to make..accept or reject..

Sorry, but that is eternal salvation by works, and God will not accept that. If you could understand that, yes, we are saved by our good works and that salvation we receive right here on earth, but our eternal salvation ( deliverance ) is not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Jewel5712]

Sorry, but that is eternal salvation by works, and God will not accept that. If you could understand that, yes, we are saved by our good works and that salvation we receive right here on earth, but our eternal salvation ( deliverance ) is not of works, lest any man should boast.

Its not "good works" that achieves salvation..again..its a CHOICE...why does it seem im repeating myself with you and youre getting hung up on a word..grasp the WHOLE concept please..re read!

 

[Deade]

t....,

G-d knows...or can know...anything. He may choose NOT to know something. That He can do also. Study the book of Job for G-d's application of either venue....it could have been both.

Free will ....is G-d granting us the freedom of doing as we please...sinful or righteous. He granted Adam and Eve free will and they applied free will....but, not righteousness...they sinned. He told them what NOT to do and they chose to do...free will... and thus sin.

We all make choices in this life. Some are good and some are bad, but none of them will bring us to God. No man can choose to serve God on his own volition. He must be drawn by the Father (John 6:65). That said, we still have the appearance of free will. If not truly drawn by God, Satan will make sure we have a counterfeit salvation. Most of Christianity are deceived into serving the wrong spirit. Unless of course, they just wallow in sinfull existence devoid of anything resembling religion.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Again..then no need whatsoever for Jesus..

Yes, there was very much a need for Jesus because if he had not died on the cross for those that God gave him no one would go to heaven. Jesus died for us when we were spiritually dead in sin Eph 2:5, and would not, or even could not respond according to the description of the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Jewel5712]

We all make choices in this life. Some are good and some are bad, but none of them will bring us to God. No man can choose to serve God on his own volition. He must be drawn by the Father (John 6:65). That said, we still have the appearance of free will. If not truly drawn by God, Satan will make sure we have a counterfeit salvation. Most of Christianity are deceived into serving the wrong spirit. Unless of course, we just wallow in sinfull existence devoid of anything resembling religion.

So..all of our choices in life are the "appearance" of a choice manipulated by God or is it just our "choice" to recieve salvation..God knows and sees all..He knows who will come to Him and who wont but he doesnt force or manipulate us into thinking we are making a choice (when we're really not?) He patiently waits and persues...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Its not "good works" that achieves salvation..again..its a CHOICE...why does it seem im repeating myself with you and youre getting hung up on a word..grasp the WHOLE concept please..re read!

I wish you could see that you are requiring man to do something to be saved. If it required man to choose, and he did not, he would be lost, That is making man have credit for saving himself, and that is saying that man is eternally saved by his works. It may help you if you read Dan 4:16.

 

[Jewel5712]

I wish you could see that you are requiring man to do something to be saved. If it required man to choose, and he did not, he would be lost, That is making man have credit for saving himself, and that is saying that man is eternally saved by his works. It may help you if you read Dan 4:16.

Romans 10:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

I guess Gods word spells it out.."good works" is a manifestation of God working in our lives AFTER weve recieved salvation...God doesnt NEED us to choose Him...we can do NOTHING (works included) that will EVER be good enough...salvation is a GIFT from my God to me SHOULD I (see scripture above)...

 

[Deade]

So..all of our choices in life are the "appearance" of a choice manipulated by God or is it just our "choice" to recieve salvation..God knows and sees all..He knows who will come to Him and who wont but he doesnt force or manipulate us into thinking we are making a choice (when we're really not?) He patiently waits and persues...

Just for salvation and the choices related to that. I do not think it is really healthy knowing that God knows the outcomes of our choices. It is real easy to get cocky and overconfident while serving God. That usually brings on chastisement and a humbling experience.

God can use us mightily and still let us turn away and be lost in the end. Look at Solomon, we have two books written by him but he still turned to idolatry in the end. I think he had too much wisdom and got cocky. All said and done, we need to work out our salvation soberly with a fixed heart.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are accusing Danny wrongly!

I did not accuse Danny wrongly.

Go back and read the post you quoted.

First, Danny stated:

"I know you don’t believe in God's Word" and

"You eject God's Word because God doesn't conform to your wicked expectations"

There was no call for those vicious words. God's Word tells us we are to be kind one to another, we are to be especially good to those who are of the household of faith, we are to each esteem other better than ourselves.

Secondly, Danny stated that "we don't sin as the reprobate do".

Do you believe your sins are any different than the sin of the unbeliever? I surely don't believe mine are any different. Sin is sin. Sin is "missing the mark; to err"

Here is what Paul says about his warfare. Romans 7:19-20, For I know that within me (that is , in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not, but the evil which I would not, that I do

Do you believe the "no good thing" which dwells in your flesh is any better than the "no good thing" that dwells in the flesh of the unbeliever?

 

[preston39]

I wish you could see that you are requiring man to do something to be saved. If it required man to choose, and he did not, he would be lost, That is making man have credit for saving himself, and that is saying that man is eternally saved by his works. It may help you if you read Dan 4:16.

F....,
Man must not do anything...... to receive eternal salvation...what?
Where did you get that from?
The Bible tells us what we must do...Repent, be baptized and live a righteous life.

I don't call that works....but, some do.