Speaking in tongues
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Well this is where we begin to have a problem. Scripture does not teach public and private use of the Holy Spirit and the gift of tongues. Every example of tongues in the NT is public and at the time of conversion of filling with the Holy Spirit for those who had been saved but not prepared for service in the witness for Christ.
I know you guys like to speak of praying in tongues but the apostle Paul clearly says that such prayer if it is without understanding is unfruitful. Understanding what you are praying is essential. We have been adopted into Gods family by Christ. We have full access to God as our heavenly Father. The OT Jews would not even write the name of God so great was their fear of Him. They were separated by the vail in the temple which Christ rent in twain for us.
Time to come out of the shadows and walk in the Light of the presence of Almighty God. Pray like Christ prayed and not like the Pharisees who knew they were unworthy. We have the righteousness of Christ wherein we stand faultless before the throne.
Praying without knowledge is not like the Holy Spirit making groanings for us because we cannot speak. That is the Holy Spirit sharing our burden before the Father but we do not speak. It is better to say nothing in that case than to say something of which we have no knowledge.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I know you guys like to speak of praying in tongues but the apostle Paul clearly says that such prayer if it is without understanding is unfruitful. Understanding what you are praying is essential. We have been adopted into Gods family by Christ. We have full access to God as our heavenly Father. The OT Jews would not even write the name of God so great was their fear of Him. They were separated by the vail in the temple which Christ rent in twain for us.
Time to come out of the shadows and walk in the Light of the presence of Almighty God. Pray like Christ prayed and not like the Pharisees who knew they were unworthy. We have the righteousness of Christ wherein we stand faultless before the throne.
Praying without knowledge is not like the Holy Spirit making groanings for us because we cannot speak. That is the Holy Spirit sharing our burden before the Father but we do not speak. It is better to say nothing in that case than to say something of which we have no knowledge.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 Cor 14:
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Cor 14:
18) I thank my God, I speak [present tense] with tongues more than ye all:
What does that mean, Roger?
It is unfruitful to the mind, it is not unfruitful to the person:
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Not when you are speaking in tongues. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know the language he is speaking, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
True, but it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, and the fact that God wants us to do it (1 Cor 14:5).
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Cor 14:
18) I thank my God, I speak [present tense] with tongues more than ye all:
What does that mean, Roger?
It is unfruitful to the mind, it is not unfruitful to the person:
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Not when you are speaking in tongues. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know the language he is speaking, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
True, but it has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, and the fact that God wants us to do it (1 Cor 14:5).
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
If you're attempting to imply something about what I am contending, be a man about it and quote me directly. Seeing as you can't quote me making such a contention, be a man and don't make the accusation.
Further, it is your understanding of 1 Cor 14:14 that is at the root of the problem. For some reason you can't read it for what it plainly says.
You are adding your commentary and assuming it is Scripture. Nowhere is it stated in Scripture that the tongues of fire appeared "so that those around would know that these had received the Holy Spirit". Everything based on that assertion is irrelevant to the discussion.
Further, it is your understanding of 1 Cor 14:14 that is at the root of the problem. For some reason you can't read it for what it plainly says.
You are adding your commentary and assuming it is Scripture. Nowhere is it stated in Scripture that the tongues of fire appeared "so that those around would know that these had received the Holy Spirit". Everything based on that assertion is irrelevant to the discussion.
So you agree that you must understand what you are saying to have a productive conversation. Good.
I can quote 1 Cor 14:14 a million times and you still will not receive it.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
OK what about Acts 10?
Acts 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Seems to me that Peter is saying that tongues were the sign for the circumcision to see in an undeniable form that God was saving Gentiles just as He was saving Jews. Just another reason that tongues ceased.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I can quote 1 Cor 14:14 a million times and you still will not receive it.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
OK what about Acts 10?
Acts 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:1 ¶ And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Seems to me that Peter is saying that tongues were the sign for the circumcision to see in an undeniable form that God was saving Gentiles just as He was saving Jews. Just another reason that tongues ceased.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We know that when a person speaks in tongues he does not know what he is saying:
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
We also know that when a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself:
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Therefore, your statement above is false.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
We also know that when a person speaks in tongues, he edifies himself:
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Therefore, your statement above is false.
Piling false assumptions one upon another does not make sound doctrine.
I hate to be so blunt but self edification is false edification. Jewish minds would never accept such a contention. Proverbs is full of texts showing the importance of knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Jewish men of the time of the apostles would have insisted that the only way to understand God is by knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Paul having been instructed under Gamaliel would have been a strong advocate of the teachings in Proverbs.
Paul also was likely able to speak more than one language. Hebrew, Aramaic and likely Latin since he was a Roman citizen. Tongues are languages and never incomprehensible meaningless sounds. So yeah Paul spoke in different languages more than most men who were less educated.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I hate to be so blunt but self edification is false edification. Jewish minds would never accept such a contention. Proverbs is full of texts showing the importance of knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Jewish men of the time of the apostles would have insisted that the only way to understand God is by knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Paul having been instructed under Gamaliel would have been a strong advocate of the teachings in Proverbs.
Paul also was likely able to speak more than one language. Hebrew, Aramaic and likely Latin since he was a Roman citizen. Tongues are languages and never incomprehensible meaningless sounds. So yeah Paul spoke in different languages more than most men who were less educated.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What false assumptions, Roger? I'm quoting scripture.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Jude
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
That has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
Paul's education, or that he might have known several languages, had nothing to do with his speaking in tongues.
Tongues are languages. But when a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying, he does not know or understand the language he is speaking (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
Speaking in tongues is not speaking a language that you know.
1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
Jude
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
That has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
Paul's education, or that he might have known several languages, had nothing to do with his speaking in tongues.
Tongues are languages. But when a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying, he does not know or understand the language he is speaking (1 Cor 14:2, 14).
Speaking in tongues is not speaking a language that you know.
Ok you are so far away from any reasonable definition of tongues that you cannot get back to biblical tongues on a jet plane.
Tongues are and always have been languages. The only other tongues are the organ in your mouth by which you produce languages.
Paul did say something about Gentiles being carried away with dumb idols. I wonder what he meant?
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Kind of low opinion of Gentiles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Tongues are and always have been languages. The only other tongues are the organ in your mouth by which you produce languages.
Paul did say something about Gentiles being carried away with dumb idols. I wonder what he meant?
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
Kind of low opinion of Gentiles.
For the cause of Christ
Roger