Not By Works

[TruthTalk]

You know what is going on. You are not the common Christian who is struggling to keep their heads above water with the challenges of this world. You are not the common Christian that is tempted by satan every day to give up on Christianity because it is not true. There are billions of Christians that exist and at any time there are thousands that are on the verge of falling away.

You OTOH are comfortable in your belief of Jesus Christ and have gone through the gauntlet of temptation and have come out the other end ready to stand up for Jesus and defend your beliefs. You are an anomaly in the Christian world, because you are trying to live like Jesus lived. It is not so for the masses of Christians.

If you were a nominal Christian that believes they are saved, and they hear their pastor tell them that they are saved and Jesus will never let them go, no matter what they do, and because they are under grace, if they do sin, Jesus will just immediately wipe it clean, do you not see that this preaching is setting up common Christians to sin, rather than be more righteous. In fact they are told righteousness is not a good thing because it brings on boasting. What a perfect scenario for laziness and sin. If you can't see that, then wait another 10 years and see where the Christian churches will be. Church pews are slowly emptying, as Christians try to come to some reason why they must even come to church, being under the "so called" freedom of grace. It is not a good thing.

Hi benhur, stop a moment and think about what you are saying, Jesus told peter that "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail." Matthew16:18. Church attendance will wax and wane, but God will always have a true and strong remnant who will not bow the knee to false gods.

Gallup's data found an average of 39 percent of Catholics reported attending church within the past seven days between 2014 and 2017, compared with 45 percent from 2005 to 2008.

Within the same period of time, weekly church attendance among Protestants remained relatively unchanged, declining by about 1 point to 45 percent.

The largest decrease in weekly church attendance among Catholics occurred between the 1950s and 1970s when it fell from nearly 75 percent to less than 50 percent. Gallup say's

God will always have a remnant even during the Great Tribulation.
1Kings18:13
13 Haven’t you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the Lord? I hid a hundred of the Lord’s prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.

1Kings19:14
14 He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

 

[Metternich]

So the Bible study notes concerning this passage are incorrect?

Well all I can say is that I do not believe it. Here is a section of a Catholic commentary I have.

In 19–24 Paul derives further motives for humility from the simile of the olive tree in 16, 17–18. He evidently has reason to think that the Gentile Christians may feel inclined to insist on the fact that whatever their origin may have been, at present they are the living branches of the Church while almost all the old branches have been cut off and thrown away on the heap of dry wood. This fact is undoubtedly true. But what the Gentile Christians should learn from it is: (1) fear of God’s severity, since he did not spare even his own chosen people, 21, 22a; (2) gratitude for the grace of their own faith, 22; (3) respect for God’s omnipotence, 23. The wonderful way in which God, contrary to all that could be expected, has engrafted the Gentiles into the ancient stem of Israel should be a constant reminder to them that he can do the same at any time with those branches that are at present rejected. To belong to the Church is a grace of God; the one condition on men’s part is faith. Gentiles have been received into the Church because they believed, and Israelites have been excluded because they refused to believe.

Theissen, A. (1953). The Epistle to the Romans. In B. Orchard & E. F. Sutcliffe (Eds.), A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (p. 1072). Toronto; New York; Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson.

 

[benhur]

I must disagree with this.
Church pews are not slowly emptying based on what you say.
People are not coming to church because the church is not welcoming.
It's judgemental, clean yourself up otherwise your not welcome.

Do this do that before you can be baptised. Be perfect.
Things like baptism saves, if you speak in tongues it's evidence you are saved, if you don't give 10% of your income then you are robbing God, then the reverse is if you give 10% God will give you more back. When it does not happen then what.

The church is not united.
Belivers tear each other apart.

Mainstream church comes across as holier than thou attitude.

We are seen as hypocrites.

The church is not and should not be a museum/hotel for the saints but a hospital for the sinners.

It is based on what I say and it is also based on what you say. I have had many discussions with Christians that tell me they don't have to go to church because they are not under the law any more and do not have to get circumsized or observe feasts and sabbaths. Wow, it is out of hand what the pastors are telling people today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is not every word of Scripture inspired? Did not Paul make a big deal about the word seed as opposed seeds plural. Further scripture does not contradict itself. We cannot say Jesus said A 10 times and NOT A one time and then conclude A is correct. We must conclude that all 11 statements are true and we must find someway to harmonize the apparent contradiction.

Your right, It is inspired.
‘In factr, it proves my point, No place EXCEPT mark did he mentions baptism.
And you only ASSUMER he meant water baptism in mark, and not the fact that whoever believes IS BAPTISED by God, (it never says baptised in water, You just assume he meant that, I trynot to base my bible beliefes on assumptions)
So my interpretation does not contradict scripture at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please interpret for me Rom 11:22

Rom 11:22
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Romans 11 talks abut 2 groups of people. Jews and gentiles

His point is, If jews can be cut off because of their unbeliefg, do not be so proud, because just as they (as a group) have been cut off. You can also. If you fall in unbelieve (which the OT and paul said they would)

It is not speaking of induvidual salvation.


‘

 

[50C1AL0N3]

Hi benhur, stop a moment and think about what you are saying, Jesus told peter that "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail." Matthew16:18. Church attendance will wax and wane, but God will always have a true and strong remnant who will not bow the knee to false gods.

Gallup's data found an average of 39 percent of Catholics reported attending church within the past seven days between 2014 and 2017, compared with 45 percent from 2005 to 2008.

Within the same period of time, weekly church attendance among Protestants remained relatively unchanged, declining by about 1 point to 45 percent.

The largest decrease in weekly church attendance among Catholics occurred between the 1950s and 1970s when it fell from nearly 75 percent to less than 50 percent. Gallup say's

God will always have a remnant even during the Great Tribulation.
1Kings18:13
13 Haven’t you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the Lord? I hid a hundred of the Lord’s prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water.

1Kings19:14
14 He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

Someone who has had the imputing of the Holy Spirit will not (continually) use Gods grace as a cloak for sin... I would think anyhow. I'll be honest, there are times in which I sin and my thoughts at the time are far from God. I even sometimes get so angry I'll sin to show my anger. I know that's very immature, but I do have some anger issues stemming from PTSD God and I are working on. Would you doubt my salvation because I boldly sin in anger? I do repent most all the time but there are those times where one thing leads to another and its left as history. Blinds scary huh?

 

[benhur]

You really misinterpret almost everything. The apostles were only by laying their hands on someone saying to GOD, "LORD, SAVE THIS ONE". IT IS NOT WATER THAT SAVES, it is the HOLY SPIRIT immersing one into the spiritual body of CHRIST.

"Time to kick the dust of your UNBELIEF from my feet."

Don't be kicking the dust off your feet over me, I believe in Jesus Christ like you.

But, interpret this passage of scripture?

Acts 8:14-17 King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

So Peter and John are sent to Samaria and there they find people that obviously believed in Christ, and did what they were supposed to do and got baptized by water immersion.

But, and here is the twist of this story: They had not received the full immersion of the Holy Spirit yet. How can that be? How can one believe and even get water baptized, without having the full immersion of the Holy Spirit?

Peter and John then layed their hands upon their heads and gave them the full immersion of the Holy Spirit in this manner.

Was Peter and John overstepping their authority to do such a work that is supposedly done by God himself? Or can men be involved in the full immersion of the Holy Spirit as the holy bible indicates, contrary to what some Christian churches teach today?

What do you think?

 

[Metternich]

Your right, It is inspired.
‘In factr, it proves my point, No place EXCEPT mark did he mentions baptism.
And you only ASSUMER he meant water baptism in mark, and not the fact that whoever believes IS BAPTISED by God, (it never says baptised in water, You just assume he meant that, I trynot to base my bible beliefes on assumptions)
So my interpretation does not contradict scripture at all.

Acts 10:47
47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 8:38
38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

1 Pet 3:20-22
20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Peter says the 8 people on the ark were saved through water. Then he says Baptism corresponds to this and it now saves them. He goes on to say not as a removal of dirt from the body to disabuse them of the idea that the water Baptism was just a washing of the outside but a cleansing from sin.

 

[Metternich]

Romans 11 talks abut 2 groups of people. Jews and gentiles

His point is, If jews can be cut off because of their unbeliefg, do not be so proud, because just as they (as a group) have been cut off. You can also. If you fall in unbelieve (which the OT and paul said they would)

It is not speaking of induvidual salvation.


‘

It says being connected to the vine or not has to do with belief or unbelief and you still do not think it has to do with salvation?

 

[BillG]

It is based on what I say and it is also based on what you say. I have had many discussions with Christians that tell me they don't have to go to church because they are not under the law any more and do not have to get circumsized or observe feasts and sabbaths. Wow, it is out of hand what the pastors are telling people today.

Whatever.
I've never heard anything of the sort.
But whatever.

 

[benhur]

Someone who has had the imputing of the Holy Spirit will not (continually) use Gods grace as a cloak for sin... I would think anyhow. I'll be honest, there are times in which I sin and my thoughts at the time are far from God. I even sometimes get so angry I'll sin to show my anger. I know that's very immature, but I do have some anger issues stemming from PTSD God and I are working on. Would you doubt my salvation because I boldly sin in anger? I do repent most all the time but there are those times where one thing leads to another and its left as history. Blinds scary huh?

You are not a lot different than other people. We all have our sinful natures to deal with.

Jesus has given us the solution to our daily sinning and that is a sincere repentance process. If we repent, he will forgive us our sins, and we can remain clean.

The problem comes, when a person sins to show his anger, and is not willing to repent, and then things happen and they get so angry that they stop listening to the Holy Spirit at all. This is a sort of denying the Holy Spirit and it can lead to a point where the Holy Spirit is grieved (Eph, 4: 30). You do not want to get to this point. If the Holy Spirit is grieved, the Holy Spirit will withdraw, and you may find yourself drifting quickly away from God. If that is not turned around, you can lose your salvation and find yourself out of EL.

The good news is, no matter where you are on that sliding scale, you can stop and repent and the Holy Spirit will return to help you find your way again to the sunlight and God. It is a happy day when one who was lost, is found and the angels in heaven rejoice.

Stay strong and let's meet in heaven.

 

[BillG]

Well all I can say is that I do not believe it. Here is a section of a Catholic commentary I have.

In 19–24 Paul derives further motives for humility from the simile of the olive tree in 16, 17–18. He evidently has reason to think that the Gentile Christians may feel inclined to insist on the fact that whatever their origin may have been, at present they are the living branches of the Church while almost all the old branches have been cut off and thrown away on the heap of dry wood. This fact is undoubtedly true. But what the Gentile Christians should learn from it is: (1) fear of God’s severity, since he did not spare even his own chosen people, 21, 22a; (2) gratitude for the grace of their own faith, 22; (3) respect for God’s omnipotence, 23. The wonderful way in which God, contrary to all that could be expected, has engrafted the Gentiles into the ancient stem of Israel should be a constant reminder to them that he can do the same at any time with those branches that are at present rejected. To belong to the Church is a grace of God; the one condition on men’s part is faith. Gentiles have been received into the Church because they believed, and Israelites have been excluded because they refused to believe.

Theissen, A. (1953). The Epistle to the Romans. In B. Orchard & E. F. Sutcliffe (Eds.), A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (p. 1072). Toronto; New York; Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson.

You go with the Catholic commentary.
I'll go with the KJV or NKJV explanation and my own research.

 

[TruthTalk]

Someone who has had the imputing of the Holy Spirit will not (continually) use Gods grace as a cloak for sin... I would think anyhow. I'll be honest, there are times in which I sin and my thoughts at the time are far from God. I even sometimes get so angry I'll sin to show my anger. I know that's very immature, but I do have some anger issues stemming from PTSD God and I are working on. Would you doubt my salvation because I boldly sin in anger? I do repent most all the time but there are those times where one thing leads to another and its left as history. Blinds scary huh?

No I would not doubt your salvation, we grow and mature at our own speed, God knows how much is too much and He loves us just the same as He loves His son with agape love , not based on our performance.

 

[BillG]

You are not a lot different than other people. We all have our sinful natures to deal with.

Jesus has given us the solution to our daily sinning and that is a sincere repentance process. If we repent, he will forgive us our sins, and we can remain clean.

The problem comes, when a person sins to show his anger, and is not willing to repent, and then things happen and they get so angry that they stop listening to the Holy Spirit at all. This is a sort of denying the Holy Spirit and it can lead to a point where the Holy Spirit is grieved (Eph, 4: 30). You do not want to get to this point. If the Holy Spirit is grieved, the Holy Spirit will withdraw, and you may find yourself drifting quickly away from God. If that is not turned around, you can lose your salvation and find yourself out of EL.

The good news is, no matter where you are on that sliding scale, you can stop and repent and the Holy Spirit will return to help you find your way again to the sunlight and God. It is a happy day when one who was lost, is found and the angels in heaven rejoice.

Stay strong and let's meet in heaven.

You on one hand place a timeframe then the next not.
Truth is given your thoughts on baptism saves if you repent of sins but are not baptised it's irrelevant anyway.

Unless of course not being baptised in water is a sin.

 

[BillG]

No I would not doubt your salvation, we grow and mature at our own speed, God knows how much is too much and He loves us just the same as He loves His son with agape love , not based on our performance.

If God dealt with everything that is wrong in our lives at a snap of his fingers what use would we be to others?

Zero.

The following would not apply

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Conform us to the image of Christ, as he does then people see Jesus in us, but also we ourselves see Jesus in us and working in us.
Being different and growing.

Then we praise him.

 

[theanointedsinner]

If God dealt with everything that is wrong in our lives at a snap of his fingers

that would mean taking away our free will

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 10:47
47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

The already recieved the spirit, thanks you just proved me right, if you were right, they would not have yet tecieved the spirit, because they woupd still have no been forgiven sin.

Thank you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It says being connected to the vine or not has to do with belief or unbelief and you still do not think it has to do with salvation?

It talks about two groups of people not induviduals, so in context, no ypu can not use this to prove your point.

 

[benhur]

Romans 11 talks abut 2 groups of people. Jews and gentiles

His point is, If jews can be cut off because of their unbeliefg, do not be so proud, because just as they (as a group) have been cut off. You can also. If you fall in unbelieve (which the OT and paul said they would)

It is not speaking of induvidual salvation.


‘

Paul is talking to the Roman brethren. Because he calls them brethren, I am thinking they are saved individuals.

It does not matter whether Paul is talking about Jews or gentiles or individuals. When he says that God will cut you off unless you continue in His goodness, I, as an individual am affected by that even if I am of the group called gentile. The Jews lost their salvation. The gentiles can lose their salvation, and that means individual gentiles too.

 

[Metternich]

It talks about two groups of people not induviduals, so in context, no ypu can not use this to prove your point.

Individuals believe or do not believe.