What must I do to be saved

fredoheaven · Jul 11, 2018

Here is another problem, to make me believe that a truly saved secure Christians will be turned away when Christ returns. I need to borrow your words this time that “I lough at myself” why? Because it is always you that says “ YOU must continue to believe…to be saved” but it’s Christ, Jesus said to anyone “He that believeth on ME…” It is Christ who saves, It is the gospel that we are saved, and the security lies in the sealing of the Spirit, in the hands of the Saviour, in the hands of the Father and in the promises of the Bible that continues to hold to. I bet, he continues to work on me until the very end because I am saved.

fredoheaven · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

If your justification to mean validation then a sure, secured, saved Christian must display a growing faith but if this referring to God’s declaration then the moment I responded through faith in Christ can no longer be cancelled. I am justified by his grace. His not mine. Now the issue is who saves? The Saviour or the sinner. I believe it’s the Saviour.

fredoheaven · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

Hi Ralp,
I said it is English tenses. I would be very glad if you become my tutor in English Grammar and tenses but I bet to disagree with your explanation that we need to abide in the word of the gospel to be saved. Apostle Paul didn’t even use the word abide. He simply says to have faith in the gospel. You have added so many words that are not found in the scriptures. It has nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Now going to that seemingly “hold fast” which is to remain tightly secured, however, the context is not about you that secure yourself. Let’s see using your choice of version.

" 2by which also you are saved (present tense), if you hold fast (present tense) the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. "-1 Corinthians 15:2

According to the Greek you recommend the subject is “You” and you are passively being saved. The verb “are saved” is in the Passive Voice as your Greek recommendation says. In other words, it is not you actually do the saving; it is the Gospel then…comma…

If you “hold fast” on the other hand is in Present Active Indicative meaning in the Greek verbal tenses, so that it’s you is actively holding fast but you get a problem since it is the word/ gospel that has the power unto salvation. It is the gospel, preached by Apostle Paul which is the central theme in order to be saved. Romans 1:16 say the power of God to salvation is none other than Christ gospel and if someone responded to this gospel by faith will be saved.

Further, your recommendation of Greek verbal tenses is debatable until now. So that “hold fast” is an inferior English translation. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 would be surely in contradictory as per your recommendation using Greek verbal tenses on parsing of the Greek.

mailmandan · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

You can speculate all you want, but James never said or implied that the hypothetical person in the passage who merely "claimed" to have faith but had "no works" previously had faith, was previously saved, but no longer has faith and is no longer saved. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. There is no double standard here. In both cases (James chapter 2 and the parable of the soils), FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

mailmandan · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place).

Matthew 6:7 - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Matthew 15:9 - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be believers, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue to believe the gospel show thereby that they are genuine believers and will be saved. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, temporary belief was not grounded in the gospel to begin with (was in vain) and they will not be saved.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 11, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

Doesn't work. Those who have the hope purify themselves as that one, i.e., Christ, is pure. That one refers back to him.

And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself as that one is pure. 1 John 3:3

G1565 ἐκεῖνος ekeinos (ek-ei`-nos) p/d.
1. that one
2. (neuter) that thing

justpassinthrough · Jul 11, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

Here is who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement, when we stand before Him.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Salvation is received as an end result of a life of walking in the obedience of faith.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JPT

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

I agree with it. But I don't see anything there that says you can't be unsealed.

seed_time_harvest said:

That's why we are to stay in Christ. That is where we are perfect before the Father. Leave Christ and you lose the perfection that you have through him.

seed_time_harvest said:

Yes, works do not make us justified before God. Our faith does. So keep believing so you can remain justified..

seed_time_harvest said:

That is right. The works of the flesh do not justify. Our trust in Christ for the forgiveness of sins does that apart from our works. That's why we need to keep on believing/trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sin--so we can remain forgiven and free from the just penalty for our sin.

justpassinthrough · Jul 11, 2018

seed_time_harvest said:

Yes. Have not seen.

The scripture plainly defines what faith is.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Before we go any further in our discussion of faith, I would like to point out a challenging bit of truth.

If we have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, then by default we have the hope of receiving the salvation of our soul, if we believe Him.

I will say it this way.

If we have faith for something, then by default, we don’t yet have the thing we are hoping for, the thing that is not yet seen.

Paul says it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it

Paul says “why do we still hope” for what we can see; what we have already obtained?

We don’t hope for what we have fully realized and received, so obviously we don’t yet have what we are hoping for.

But, we have the substance of the thing we are hoping for; The sure confidence that God will fulfill His promise because we believe.

The “it” we are eagerly waiting for is the salvation of our soul, that we will receive on that Day; if we have kept the faith.

Next, I would like to discuss how we get faith and how faith is activated so that it functions to produce the intended divine result.

JPT

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

fredoheaven said:

God does not do your believing for you. He gives you the faith to believe, but he does not do your believing/trusting for you. You do that. And last time I checked, trusting in Christ was not listed in the works that can not justify.

fredoheaven said:

Yes, that is where the security lies. So stay in the security of Christ by continuing to believe.

fredoheaven said:

I bet he will do that for you too. As long as you keep trusting in him, he will do that. Promise.

justpassinthrough · Jul 11, 2018

jameen said:

Well said.

And that eternal life is something we inherit.

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heirs inherit something.

In this case it’s eternal life.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 11, 2018

fredoheaven said:

Believe means trust and commit to obey.

If we trust that He will lead us on the difficulty path that leads to like and we follow Him, the we are believing and trusting trusting Him.

If things get hard and we decide that trusting and believing Him is to difficult and we wander from Him and become lost, then are we still believing and trusting Him?

We have to believe to the end, to receive the salvation of our soul.

that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:7-9

receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JPT

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

fredoheaven said:

Why not? Why can't a declaration of right standing with God be cancelled?

You were declared righteous by faith in the forgiveness of Christ. How does one remain righteous by faith if they no longer have that faith? You don't. You become responsible for the payment for you sin all over again when you no longer believe in the grace of God that rescued you from it before.

fredoheaven said:

Of course it's the Saviour who saves. And we access his salvation through our believing. But if we stop believing we no longer have access to his salvation.

ForestGreenCook · Jul 11, 2018

notuptome said:

I think that most people do not understand just how depraved the child of God is, thus causing us to have to battle with our fleshly nature, We are instructed to deny ourselves and depend not on our own understanding, and to mortify the deeds of the flesh. In John 3:16,17 according to Thayer's Greek definition of the word WORLD is "used of believers only". Jeremiah 50:6, MY PEOPLE hath been lost sheep, their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains, they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place. There have been many false shepherds ( preachers ) who have lead God's children astray.

notuptome · Jul 11, 2018

ForestGreenCook said:

I would say that the child of God is no longer depraved. Unsaved children of their father Adam are depraved. We have been adopted into Gods family and are now children of God whom we now address as Abba Father.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

mailmandan said:

There's nothing in the passage to suggest that James can NOT be talking about the person who used to have faith and was saved but now doesn't have faith. You are the one speculating that he can only be talking about the person who never really believed.

He can be talking about the person who never had faith, or the person who abandoned faith in Christ. Either way, this person, if they claim they have faith, but have no works to validate that faith, have a 'faith' that can not save them. Either way, they're going to the fiery place when Jesus comes back. No 'once saved always saved' doctrine matters to the person who does not have works to validate the presence of saving faith. That's why it is a meaningless doctrine. Instead of making people feel good by telling them 'once you are saved you are always saved' you need to tell them the more important matter of making sure they are saved as indicated by if they are obeying Christ or not. That is what matters.

That is what I see wrong going on in the church. The church tells people who claim to have faith in Christ, but who aren't changed or changing, not to worry because "once saved always saved, you can't lose your salvation by sinning, blah, blah, blah...." and don't tell them what they really need to hear that your life shows you may not even born again to begin with for 'once saved always saved' to even matter! So off they go with this false sense of comfort and security.

mailmandan said:

We know that, ultimately, dead faith is no faith. What you have decided is that the person that has an empty profession of faith never believed to begin with. That doctrine does not come from either passage. You are projecting it onto those passages. You're reading them through the lens of your 'once saved always saved' indoctrination.

It's fine if you want to believe that based on other verses. But you can not claim either one of those passages teaches that they never believed to begin with. I see this projection in virtually every 'once saved always saved' discussion I engage in. It comes from the circular reasoning that occurs when people say, "we know once saved always saved is true because since there is no salvation here they never really believed to begin with because once you are saved you are always saved". And so they project that circular reasoning onto all passages about salvation. They read all the passages about salvation through the lens of that doctrine.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

No, James is talking about a person who CLAIMS to have faith but has produced no good works. James says that person's faith is NON-EXISTENT -- dead.

Saving faith is not something that is lost and then regained.

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

That is correct.

You are not allowed to have it again once you lose it.

Ralph- · Jul 11, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Yep.

And no where in the passage does he say this is talking exclusively of the person who never had faith to begin with. The passage is equally applicable to the dead faith of the person who once believed but who no longer believes.

Nehemiah6 · Jul 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

You should know by now that this is pure baloney.

What must I do to be saved

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