What must I do to be saved

[Ralph-]

A person who used to believe but doesn't anymore is not being discussed in verse 14, but a person who merely says/claims to have faith, but has no works to evidence his faith.

How does a person claiming to have faith but no works automatically equate to a person never having believed? What is James saying that makes it so it can't also be a person who stopped believing?

Plain and simple. You can speculate all you want otherwise, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. I don't have to explain anything. I already explained what James clearly said. I'm not interested in speculation beyond that.

You are speculating that James is saying the person who says he has faith but has no works never believed to begin with. Show me where James said that.

The simple fact he didn't say that leaves the door open to the possibility that the person who says they have faith but no works has stopped believing.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

A person who used to believe but doesn't anymore is not being discussed in verse 14, but a person who merely says/claims to have faith, but has no works to evidence his faith. Plain and simple. You can speculate all you want otherwise, but the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. I don't have to explain anything. I already explained what James clearly said. I'm not interested in speculation beyond that.

agreed

this is making a point that genuine faith is not powerless <- followed by a new heart -> manifests BEFORE MEN as "works" (that should not favor one man over the other)

but God doesnt need proof of if wether or not HE has worked / is working in His child

also He is not fooled by a shallow/vain faith -> no new heart (what follows may even appear before men as good works for a time/ then what seems as a falling away )

 

[Ralph-]

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

You're doing it again. You're using circular reasoning to prove 'once saved always saved'.

You're saying, "since the 2nd type of soil did not endure in believing we know they were not really saved to begin with because if they were they really saved they would have persevered, so this Parable proves 'once saved always saved". That's called circular reasoning.

 

[Ralph-]

Come on, @mailmandan. Show me without projecting 'once saved always saved' onto the passage that James is saying the person who says they have faith but no works never believed to begin with, and that he could not possibly be talking about someone who says they have faith and no works but who had stopped believing.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Come on, @mailmandan. Show me without projecting 'once saved always saved' onto the passage that James is saying the person who says they have faith but no works never believed to begin with, and that he could not possibly be talking about someone who says they have faith and no works but who had stopped believing.

lol

"ignore a huge part of the truth to try and meet my understanding of these verses please"

 

[Ralph-]

lol

"ignore a huge part of the truth to try and meet my understanding of these verses please"

Okay, your turn. Without projecting your predetermined 'once saved always saved' beliefs on the passage, show us in the passage itself where James can only be talking about people who never had faith before, and can't possibly be talking about someone who stopped having faith:

8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."-James 2:8-26

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Okay, your turn.

no thanks

you can play your silly games with someone else


your question is as ridiculous as asking
Luke 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


"Explain how much hate for your mother,father,brethren, sisters and children is required to be a disciple without mentioning the love we are supposed to have for all or suggesting Jesus meant anything other than a literal example of what we commonly think of as hate or is using this as a sort of comparison or parable or example"

 

[Ralph-]

no thanks

you can play your silly games with someone else


your question is as ridiculous as asking
Luke 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


"Explain how much hate for your mother,father,brethren, sisters and children is required to be a disciple without mentioning the love we are supposed to have for all or suggesting Jesus meant anything other than what we commonly think of as hate or is using this as a sort of comparison"

You should have just kept your snarky comment to yourself and stayed out of the discussion I was having with mailmandan.

I realize that 90% of what I say goes over your head because you simply don't have enough knowledge yet to participate rationally and reasonably in these kinds of discussions. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it. So be it.

 

[Ralph-]

The challenge is still on for you, @mailmandan. Without projecting your predetermined 'once saved always saved' beliefs on the passage, show us in the passage itself where James can only be talking about people who never had faith before, and can't possibly be talking about someone who stopped having faith:

8If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,” you are doing well. 9But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."-James 2:8-26

 

[NoNameMcgee]

You should have just kept your snarky comment to yourself and stayed out of the discussion I was having with mailmandan.

I realize that 90% of what I say goes over your head because you simply don't have enough knowledge yet to participate rationally and reasonably in these kinds of discussions. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it. So be it.

I'm confident that the problem is you can not understand how works are required to be saved without those works earning you salvation.

lol hypocrite

you have posted snarky comments towards me when i talk to others


at the end of the day

no
what you say does not go over my head


i understand what you say

i just disagree with it

i believe you do not understand much of the bible

and your beliefs have many holes not backed up by truth but misunderstandings of what you read...


anyways

ill take this as a request to NOT reply to your posts which are not directed at me on an open forum even though you do it to me


ill keep your request in mind

 

[Ralph-]

no thanks

you can play your silly games with someone else


your question is as ridiculous as asking
Luke 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


"Explain how much hate for your mother,father,brethren, sisters and children is required to be a disciple without mentioning the love we are supposed to have for all or suggesting Jesus meant anything other than a literal example of what we commonly think of as hate or is using this as a sort of comparison or parable or example"

If you understood even slightly what I'm asking mailmandan you would not have said this.

 

[Ralph-]

ill take this as a request to NOT reply to your posts which are not directed at me on an open forum even though you do it to me


ill keep your request in mind

I'd prefer you not respond to any of my posts. I just don't think you can contribute in a knowledgeable and mature way yet. You're like someone else around here--quick to restate your argument, not so good at addressing the content you're confronted with. You don't engage thoughtful examination and discussion, you just say over and over what you believe about a handful of passages and don't provide any supporting evidence or discussion to prove your case.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I'd prefer you not respond to any of my posts. I just don't think you can contribute in a knowledgeable and mature way yet. You're like someone else around here--quick to restate your argument, not so good at addressing the content you're confronted with. You don't engage thoughtful examination and discussion, you just say over and over what you believe about a handful of passages and don't provide any supporting evidence or discussion to prove your case.

lol

sounds to me like youre using ad hominems to cover your hypocrisy


i can post many break downs and commentary verse by verse where even though i disagreed with someone

we have went over whole chapters with no points not backed up with scripture

but
i am guilty of sometimes reposting the same arguments against the same strawmen, the same debates where the same scripture (which is what i use as proof....) applies


i can understand that someone with clouded vision would see this as not engaging in thoughtful discussion

but if you want me to be open minded when it comes to what is obviously true

that isnt much better than accepting buddah as a possibilty when witnessing of Jesus

 

[Grandpa]

I understand perfectly that you do not believe what James teaches:

"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?"-James 2:14

You are only capable of understanding what he is saying as a works gospel so you reject it. I get it.

I reject what you and others say about James as a works gospel.

I don't believe that James is contradicting scripture. I just think legalists take what he says without taking into account previous scripture.

We know Salvation is expressly not of works lest any boast. But James appears to contradict this statement.

But its not a contradiction. Its just not proof of a works based gospel like legalists try to make it.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This seems really straight forward and simple. Salvation is NOT of works. Period.

Salvation is the gift of God.

But you have to know previous scripture in order to take James the way James needs to be taken. And that is as a balance against an intellectual belief in God without the fruit that should accompany that belief.

 

[PennEd]

If you truly believe the gospel and receive it and are justified but then go home and do nothing, and never do anything, you stopped believing. It's as simple as that. It's not a matter of you never 'really' believed. It's a simple matter of you fell back into unbelief almost as soon as you believed. This is the 2nd type of soil:

"when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. "-Matthew 13:20

Of course there is fake faith, but there is also weak, poorly grounded faith. Jesus himself used the seed planted and growing in the rocky soil to illustrate this.

Ah the soils! You kinda like relating stuff to the soils. That's fine.

Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no ROOT IN HIMSELF, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Tell me Ralph, Who is The Root? You claim this a person that was saved, born again, believer. BUT HE HAD NO ROOT IN HIMSELF!

JESUS is the Root. This person didn't have JESUS in him. So tell me how he was saved at one time but then fell away?

 

[LW97]

Ah the soils! You kinda like relating stuff to the soils. That's fine.

Matthew 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no ROOT IN HIMSELF, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Tell me Ralph, Who is The Root? You claim this a person that was saved, born again, believer. BUT HE HAD NO ROOT IN HIMSELF!

JESUS is the Root. This person didn't have JESUS in him. So tell me how he was saved at one time but then fell away?

Amen, it is pretty clear that the last group was the only one saved since the others lacked of good ground.

 

[theanointedsinner]

Do people need God's power to help them become more Christ-like or no?

 

[LW97]

Do people need God's power to help them become more Christ-like or no?

YES!

 

[theanointedsinner]

@LW97 if people need God's power to help them become more Christ-like ...

then how do we let God help us rely on God's love and power?

how do we let God love us, and rest in his love?

 

[LW97]

@LW97 if people need God's power to help them become more Christ-like ...

then how do we let God help us rely on God's love and power?

how do we let God love us, and rest in his love?