Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[Danny1988]

"It is all God and none of us." That makes God out to be a puppet master.

Be careful how you speak about God, it's a fearful thing to fall into Gods hands. How would you answer if He asked you, "shall the thing formed ask the one who formed it, why has thou made me this way"
We have no right to question anything God does, He owns your body and soul. He can do whatever He pleases to you, you are His puppet weather you like it or not.

 

[justpassinthrough]

That’s for another thread, I’m sure there are many already.
This thread is Cal verses Armin etc

It’s all God and none of us.

Thank God we have the Holy Spirit and the scriptures to lead us and guide us to know the truth, so we can be free from false doctrine.


7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7

• moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household

Who saved Noah and his family from the flood.


God alone and none of us?
Noah alone?
Noah obeying God?




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yup otherwise we are saying the once for all sin on the cross is
insufficient and does not cover any wrong doing after being saved.
Christ didn’t pay the price for sins, he paid the price for sin.



Christ was only crucified once, he isn’t crucified every time we do
something wrong. Plus anyone who says they have never done anything
wrong, never thought a wrong thought, never forgot to do something they
should have done after being saved, is a liar.

If you read my post it says genuine born spiritually new creations have
tender conscience. We know when we do wrong, we are to keep short accounts
with God. He convicts and forgives but does not condemn.

Even that tender conscience is a result of being born again, a gift if you prefer.
Without Christ we have hearts of stone, in Christ we are given a heart of flesh.

Those are your words that come from your opinion that guided by false teaching.


There is not single scripture in this statement so we can see where it comes from.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



The Gospel of Calvinism says this -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him is predestined to salvation, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvinism 3:16




JPT

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Be careful how you speak about God, it's a fearful thing to fall into Gods hands. How would you answer if He asked you, "shall the thing formed ask the one who formed it, why has thou made me this way"
We have no right to question anything God does, He owns your body and soul. He can do whatever He pleases to you, you are His puppet weather you like it or not.

I don't question God I question your bad theology.

 

[Grandpa]

But that wasn't Arminianism you were adhering to. Arminianism is almoat the same as Calvinism except that God's grace can be resisted. Arminians believe it is God doing the initiating but not in only an elect few, in everyone. You just have not resisted Him so far.

If Gods Grace can be resisted then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. God can't make me do it, He has to ask and hope I will come to a good decision. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

IF God does the initiating in everyone then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. Is it beneficial to follow Christ or should I do my own thing? Maybe I will, maybe I won't,


This is NOTHING like Calvinsim. Calvinism says it is God who is Sovereign. It is God who calls His Elect. It is God who shows His Grace that cannot be resisted. God is in charge. God Reigns.

This is the argument between arminians and calvinists.

 

[notuptome]

If Gods Grace can be resisted then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. God can't make me do it, He has to ask and hope I will come to a good decision. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

IF God does the initiating in everyone then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. Is it beneficial to follow Christ or should I do my own thing? Maybe I will, maybe I won't,


This is NOTHING like Calvinsim. Calvinism says it is God who is Sovereign. It is God who calls His Elect. It is God who shows His Grace that cannot be resisted. God is in charge. God Reigns.

This is the argument between arminians and calvinists.

True it is the argument but it is not how God operates. Adam fell in the garden and sinned. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil as part of the fall. Adam and all mankind must now choose whether they will submit to Christ or serve Satan. Adam wanted to be like God so now he has earned the appropriate penalty.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus points out the who and why some come to salvation and some do not. God provides the choice and compels man to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[LW97]

 

[LW97]

 

[Grandpa]

True it is the argument but it is not how God operates. Adam fell in the garden and sinned. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil as part of the fall. Adam and all mankind must now choose whether they will submit to Christ or serve Satan. Adam wanted to be like God so now he has earned the appropriate penalty.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Jesus points out the who and why some come to salvation and some do not. God provides the choice and compels man to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What do you mean its not how God operates?

What about Noah and the flood?

What about Israel and the Canaanites and Egyptians?

Who had the power? Men who thought they were on the throne or God?

 

[notuptome]

What do you mean its not how God operates?

What about Noah and the flood?

What about Israel and the Canaanites and Egyptians?

Who had the power? Men who thought they were on the throne or God?

God does not want anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. The flood did not take away sin. Sin continued after the flood. Only Christ can remove the stain of sin from our heart and restore us to our Father in heaven.

God lights every man that comes into the world and men must choose between light and darkness. Jesus explains that in John 1 and 3.

God has all the power and because He does He does not oppress mankind but through His goodness leads men to repentance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

God does not want anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. The flood did not take away sin. Sin continued after the flood. Only Christ can remove the stain of sin from our heart and restore us to our Father in heaven.

God lights every man that comes into the world and men must choose between light and darkness. Jesus explains that in John 1 and 3.

God has all the power and because He does He does not oppress mankind but through His goodness leads men to repentance.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I keep coming to an impasse when trying to explain this.

Its like looking at the same picture from different angles.

Its not that its wrong to look at it from a different angle. It just makes it look different.

I was just looking at Isaiah 59 because I immediately had the thought "Is Gods hand shortened that it cannot save?"

 

[justpassinthrough]

If Gods Grace can be resisted then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. God can't make me do it, He has to ask and hope I will come to a good decision. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

IF God does the initiating in everyone then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. Is it beneficial to follow Christ or should I do my own thing? Maybe I will, maybe I won't,


This is NOTHING like Calvinsim. Calvinism says it is God who is Sovereign. It is God who calls His Elect. It is God who shows His Grace that cannot be resisted. God is in charge. God Reigns.

This is the argument between arminians and calvinists.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Here we are shown the example of salvation, typified in Abraham, as he heard the call and obeyed.


This is the example for us, for justification by faith: being declared righteous at our initial salvation.


Notice that when God spoke to Abraham, he had received faith, however he to obey the "gospel", as it were in order to be justified, leaving for us the pattern of the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Does God do the obeying for us?


The Lord says obedience is better than sacrifice.



So Samuel said:

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:22


If the Lord is the one responsible for obeying Himself, on our behalf, then what of rebellion?


For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
1 Samuel 15:23


If God is the one responsible for obeying His voice, then He also is the One responsible for disobeying as well.


Some claim that we are given a "gift" of obedience, if so then please share with us the scripture that teaches us this.




JPT

 

[Grandpa]

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Here we are shown the example of salvation, typified in Abraham, as he heard the call and obeyed.


This is the example for us, for justification by faith: being declared righteous at our initial salvation.


Notice that when God spoke to Abraham, he had received faith, however he to obey the "gospel", as it were in order to be justified, leaving for us the pattern of the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Does God do the obeying for us?


The Lord says obedience is better than sacrifice.



So Samuel said:

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:22


If the Lord is the one responsible for obeying Himself, on our behalf, then what of rebellion?


For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”
1 Samuel 15:23


If God is the one responsible for obeying His voice, then He also is the One responsible for disobeying as well.


Some claim that we are given a "gift" of obedience, if so then please share with us the scripture that teaches us this.




JPT

Sure.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That was from the OT. Here's one from the NT.

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Sure.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That was from the OT. Here's one from the NT.

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Brother these scripture do not show us that God is doing the obeying, but is in responding to their obedience.


The person must obey and remain in Christ, in order to produce much fruit.


The person's part in to obey the command to abide.


Here is how we abide.

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


God does not do the obeying for us.




JPT

 

[garee]

True it is the argument but it is not how God operates. Adam fell in the garden and sinned. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil as part of the fall. Adam and all mankind must now choose whether they will submit to Christ or serve Satan. Adam wanted to be like God so now he has earned the appropriate penalty.

I would offer...Can't chose without someone offering a choice, the gospel .

First things first.

Adam fell in the garden and sinned in doing so he lost anyway of communing with God not seen. We cannot know God after the imaginations of our own heart (no faith) as we are informed in Romans 3.

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Romans 3:11-12

As always God must do the first work, as our first love in knowing Him ...the hearing of His faith (Galatians 3).as that which works in us to both will and perform his good pleasure (imputed righteousness). As many as the father give to Christ all of them elected will come, none will be cast out

God provides the choice and gives the man a new , previously dead, desire to choose.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

If Gods Grace can be resisted then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. God can't make me do it, He has to ask and hope I will come to a good decision. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.

IF God does the initiating in everyone then who has the Power, God or men? Men because they sit on the throne and decide what is right and what is not. Is it beneficial to follow Christ or should I do my own thing? Maybe I will, maybe I won't,


This is NOTHING like Calvinsim. Calvinism says it is God who is Sovereign. It is God who calls His Elect. It is God who shows His Grace that cannot be resisted. God is in charge. God Reigns.

This is the argument between arminians and calvinists.

The reason I can think of why Calvinists want a puppet master God is so that they can sin and blame it on God.

 

[justpassinthrough]

As many as the father give to Christ all of them elected will come, none will be cast out

None of the twelve were cast out but one was indeed lost, as also foreseen before hand by God.


12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

• none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Shall we discuss the principle of how one of His sheep becomes lost.




JPT

 

[carl11]

The reason I can think of why Calvinists want a puppet master God is so that they can sin and blame it on God.

The reformers do not believe nor see God as a puppet master nor do they blame sin on God. Unfortunately that is how many see it and yet it is not true.

 

[notuptome]

I keep coming to an impasse when trying to explain this.

Its like looking at the same picture from different angles.

Its not that its wrong to look at it from a different angle. It just makes it look different.

I was just looking at Isaiah 59 because I immediately had the thought "Is Gods hand shortened that it cannot save?"

Most Calvinists do not understand nor follow after what Calvin actually taught. They are following recent teaching and have been given a false version of Gods saving grace. Calvin's TULIP can be made biblical but most Calvinists have gone way beyond what the bible actually teaches.

Calvinists over teach Calvinism as a means of avoiding taking personal responsibility for their sin. If God elects then what man does is of not account in the matter. Sin or no sin God saves who He wills. Yet the gospel and the teachings of Judaism from which it stems all teach man taking personal responsibility for his individual sin. Election dos not replace the need for a John 16:8-11 experience in the persons life. Without it the likelihood of a tare and not wheat being produced increases dramatically.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DevotiontoBible]

The reformers do not believe nor see God as a puppet master nor do they blame sin on God. Unfortunately that is how many see it and yet it is not true.

Yes, they do. Go back and read post #281.