Speaking in tongues

[Waggles]

@PS
You are bashing your head against a brick wall.
Even if an angel sent from God would witness to the truth of praying in tongues as a God given spiritual language
this lot would still preach another gospel, and deny the gospel preached by Jesus himself.
Gladly they deny the scriptures, and happily claim that the verses that verify that these signs are the proof of
that original apostolic gospel once delivered to the saints, are not genuine, are not true.

Until a person is called by God the Father to the gospel of Jesus by the Holy Spirit they will never understand nor
experience the indwelling Spirit of truth and power.
They will not go about to lay hands on the sick and to pray for their recovery by the Holy Spirit.
They will not enjoy the abundance of miracles, healings, blessings, signs and wonders that confirm that God
is active in his Spirit-filled church.
Like Noose and DJ2, they will simply not believe, not see, not experience: and then go on to call those who have
wonderful testimonies to such liars, or frauds, or demonic.

Peter wrote that in the last days mockers would come and speak evil of the truth.

 

[PS]

@PS
You are bashing your head against a brick wall.
Even if an angel sent from God would witness to the truth of praying in tongues as a God given spiritual language
this lot would still preach another gospel, and deny the gospel preached by Jesus himself.
Gladly they deny the scriptures, and happily claim that the verses that verify that these signs are the proof of
that original apostolic gospel once delivered to the saints, are not genuine, are not true.

Until a person is called by God the Father to the gospel of Jesus by the Holy Spirit they will never understand nor
experience the indwelling Spirit of truth and power.
They will not go about to lay hands on the sick and to pray for their recovery by the Holy Spirit.
They will not enjoy the abundance of miracles, healings, blessings, signs and wonders that confirm that God
is active in his Spirit-filled church.
Like Noose and DJ2, they will simply not believe, not see, not experience: and then go on to call those who have
wonderful testimonies to such liars, or frauds, or demonic.

Peter wrote that in the last days mockers would come and speak evil of the truth.

You are right, but what to do? We have the ignore function, but that would not stop the accusers.

False teachers should not have access to a platform that provides Satan with ready access to
hundreds of the faithful, many of whom are still young in the faith. ​

 

[Noose]

"Or so they thought," misguided people who call themselves Christians. There are a lot of them around, some very obvious ones are those who misquote scripture, take scripture out of context, and put a false emphasis on certain words resulting in people falling away from the faith. You have told us what their end will be. We need to examine ourselves.

That's right but Matt 7 is very specific to people who think that the signs are from God. The signs include; miracles/speaking in tongues/ healing/ prophesying all in the name of the Lord (or so they thought).

 

[PS]

That's right but Matt 7 is very specific to people who think that the signs are from God.

No. It is very specific to the false teachers and prophets who work iniquity.

Mat 7:23 RV And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[notuptome]

Jude disagrees with both of you:

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Jude's "building yourselves up" is the same root word as Paul's "edifies himself". It's clearly a positive thing. Oh, and Jude mentions praying in the Holy Spirit... how about that!

Your positions do not stand up to examination.

Without knowledge there can be no fruit. You cannot grow without knowledge just as the prodigal could not grow on the husks he was reduced to eating while he was separated from his father.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. To edify yourself you must have the word of God and you must understand it. Proverbs makes clear that we obtain knowledge, understanding and then wisdom.

The world provides amusement which causes one's mind to flounder in the sea of nothingness.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Paul must have been an insufferable boor.

1 Cor 14:
18) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul was multi lingual. There is nothing to suggest that Paul did not understand what he was saying when he spoke in tongues. You are fixated on tongues as a mystical language that is beyond the comprehension of the speaker. That is a concept that has crept into modern Christianity from the eastern new age religions.

The context of 1 Cor 14 is in meetings, and in meetings tongues must always be interpreted. But he also explicitly states that when a Christian speaks in tongues he edifies himself (1 Cor 14:4).
Paul does not draw that conclusion. This is yet another example of how you twist Paul's words to try and support cessationism.

Paul says we must have comprehension for edification. Paul was educated as a Pharisee and would have known the scriptures very well. It is taught time and time again in Proverbs that you need knowledge and understanding to reach wisdom. Without knowledge you have nothing which is unfruitful.

You must accuse because you cannot reason from the scriptures.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Waggles]

You are right, but what to do? We have the ignore function, but that would not stop the accusers.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mark 6:11

 

[PS]

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mark 6:11

Hint taken. Ignore it is.

 

[garee]

@PS
You are bashing your head against a brick wall.
Even if an angel sent from God would witness to the truth of praying in tongues as a God given spiritual language
this lot would still preach another gospel, and deny the gospel preached by Jesus himself.
Gladly they deny the scriptures, and happily claim that the verses that verify that these signs are the proof of
that original apostolic gospel once delivered to the saints, are not genuine, are not true.

Until a person is called by God the Father to the gospel of Jesus by the Holy Spirit they will never understand nor
experience the indwelling Spirit of truth and power.
They will not go about to lay hands on the sick and to pray for their recovery by the Holy Spirit.
They will not enjoy the abundance of miracles, healings, blessings, signs and wonders that confirm that God
is active in his Spirit-filled church.
Like Noose and DJ2, they will simply not believe, not see, not experience: and then go on to call those who have
wonderful testimonies to such liars, or frauds, or demonic.

Peter wrote that in the last days mockers would come and speak evil of the truth.

Its an evil generation that seeks after a side show or circus .

Last week I went with a friend who previously shied from discussing spiritual matters, who asked if I would come, not knowing what denomination he was part of.

There was not the preaching of the gospel .But all kinds of assumed healings as evidence they were being filled with the Spirit .Like a gas station, fill it up. Christian are filled when they first beleive.

One was healed of cancer, another diabetes, another arthritis, another a baby that would not drink formula, or another a hip problem even marching that person back and forth across the stage for public display .Surrounded by sounds that had no meaning and what they call Holy laughter to indicate being filled with the Spirit, men and woman being what they call slain in the spirit, falling backward, having two or three attendants to catch them . The whole show latest for over an hour.

The mockers that Peter spoke of are those who have the sign of rebellion against them . No sign for those who beleive prophecy .

Why make the law to no effect by ignoring the foundation of the law ? Why go above that which is written?


Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.1 Corinthians 14:

Stammering lips are lips that mock prophecy the word of God . God speaking in other languages other than Hebrew alone.

Yet they still would not beleive scripture but held to the oral traditions of men making the word of God without effect.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

What the next new innovation as a sign someone is being filled?

Who is mocking who would be the question .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Even Jude is against your position. Jude is talking about the church, not individuals.

Jude:
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written aboutb long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

.........
20But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,21keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.


Again, Jude repeats what Paul has been saying in 1 Corinthians. None of these means that people are built when they pray words that they don't understand. Jude is writing to a Church and is urging them to build themselves (as the church not as individuals) bu ignoring those that slander amongst them. Nothing to suggest meaningless language.

Jude 4-16 is talking about unbelievers and ends in this manner: v17 to believers in contrast to what was said before:

BUT, beloved, remember you the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (v18) again in contrast to the mockers and those that separate themselves)
BUT you, beloved, building up yourselves (edifying, reiterating 1 Cor. 14:4a) on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit, Keep yourselves in the love of God looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

"praying in the holy spirit"; e.g. praying in the spirit, praying in a tongue, pray with the spirit - is speaking in tongues.

 

[Noose]

Jude 4-16 is talking about unbelievers and ends in this manner: v17 to believers in contrast to what was said before:

BUT, beloved, remember you the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. (v18) again in contrast to the mockers and those that separate themselves)
BUT you, beloved, building up yourselves (edifying, reiterating 1 Cor. 14:4a) on your most holy faith, praying in the holy spirit, Keep yourselves in the love of God looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

"praying in the holy spirit"; e.g. praying in the spirit, praying in a tongue, pray with the spirit - is speaking in tongues.

Started well but ended up so bad. Spirit is not 'tongue'

 

[garee]

Started well but ended up so bad. Spirit is not 'tongue'

Its the Spirit of the language .God's Spirit can speak in all languages as tongues of the world to include the Hebrew tongue .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Started well but ended up so bad. Spirit is not 'tongue'

LOL! Never said Spirit is "tongue"! The terms "praying in the holy spirit" (Jude 20); e.g. "praying in the spirit", "praying in a tongue" (1 Cor.14:14), "pray with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:15) - is speaking in tongues.

 

[Kavik]

Again, a lot of interesting discussion, but almost all based upon the assumption that what Pentecostal Charismatic Christians are doing today mirrors the Biblical narrative.

I’d be curious to get answers from people on the following –

For those who speak them; have you ever recorded yourself and then listened to what you’re producing?? If not, why not? If you have; what, to you, makes it a language?

At its very basic level, for something to be language, it must consist of (1) discrete units of various sorts, and (2) rules and principles that govern the way these discrete units can be combined and ordered.

Can you describe how your tongues fit the above criteria?

Why will no two ‘tongues’ ever be the same? If it is indeed a heavenly/divine language, why would there ever be a need for more than one, rather than one per person?

Why won’t your ‘tongue’ ever contain a sound which does not exist in your native language or one you have been exposed to (regardless of how you were exposed to it – really all you need to have done is just hear it)?

If tongues are supernatural, why can the entire phenomenon (with respect to what’s being produced and how it’s being produced – i.e. not the ‘tongues experience’, but rather the mechanics behind the actual ‘tongue’) be easily explained in somewhat simple Linguistic terms?

 

[shrume]

Paul was multi lingual.

That has nothing to do with his speaking in tongues.

There is nothing to suggest that Paul did not understand what he was saying when he spoke in tongues.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

You are fixated on tongues as a mystical language that is beyond the comprehension of the speaker. That is a concept that has crept into modern Christianity from the eastern new age religions.

The Bible expressly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying.

Paul says we must have comprehension for edification.

When spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5). But speaking in tongues to yourself edifies you (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).

Paul was educated as a Pharisee and would have known the scriptures very well.

That is true.

It is taught time and time again in Proverbs that you need knowledge and understanding to reach wisdom. Without knowledge you have nothing which is unfruitful.

There is nothing about speaking in tongues in Proverbs.

You must accuse because you cannot reason from the scriptures.

I'm not sure you are reading the scriptures.

1 Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Exactly. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. His understanding (mind, "nous") is unfruitful.

 

[Noose]

LOL! Never said Spirit is "tongue"! The terms "praying in the holy spirit" (Jude 20); e.g. "praying in the spirit", "praying in a tongue" (1 Cor.14:14), "pray with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:15) - is speaking in tongues.

That's what i call fake news. Do you even know what a spirit is?

 

[Noose]

That has nothing to do with his speaking in tongues.


1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


The Bible expressly states that when a person speaks in tongues he does not understand what he is saying.


When spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted so the church can be edified (1 Cor 14:5). But speaking in tongues to yourself edifies you (1 Cor 14:4; Jude 20).


That is true.


There is nothing about speaking in tongues in Proverbs.


I'm not sure you are reading the scriptures.


Exactly. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. His understanding (mind, "nous") is unfruitful.

Unknown to who? you misrepresent Paul so much.
None of those verses suggests speaking things unknown to the speaker but to the listener.
This is Paul's recommendation:

1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

If you are not speaking intelligible words with your tongue even today, you are doing nothing.

 

[shrume]

Unknown to who?

Unknown to the speaker.

you misrepresent Paul so much.

You have yet to demonstrate how.

None of those verses suggests speaking things unknown to the speaker but to the listener.

I don't think you're reading what is written.

This is Paul's recommendation:

1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying. This is why when a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted.

If you are not speaking intelligible words with your tongue even today, you are doing nothing.

When a person speaks in tongues, he is edifying himself, giving thanks well, speaking to God, and more. Scripture references were given previously.

 

[Noose]

Unknown to the speaker.


You have yet to demonstrate how.


I don't think you're reading what is written.


When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying. This is why when a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted.


When a person speaks in tongues, he is edifying himself, giving thanks well, speaking to God, and more. Scripture references were given previously.

1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

Speak intelligible words with you tongue not "interpret your un-intelligible words that you speak with your tongue.

There can not be any edification where there's no understanding, you can't explain how.

 

[notuptome]

That has nothing to do with his speaking in tongues.
Exactly. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. His understanding (mind, "nous") is unfruitful.

God is still doing miracles but God has never engaged in the inane.

From the foundation of the world God has been in the wisdom business.

For the cause of Christ
Roger