Speaking in tongues

[Noose]

Demons cannot influence saved persons. Jesus was addressing lost souls. The Holy Spirit and demonic spirits cannot abide in the same place. Light causes darkness to flee.

In context the elect in the passage you allude to is Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No man has the right to say 'saved' or 'unsaved'. Salvation is of the heart and only the Lord knows. Most people think they are saved whereas they are not, many think they are not whereas they are. That's why the first shall be the last and narrow is the road that leads to safety.

When Jesus says many, He actually means many.

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Demons cannot influence saved persons. Jesus was addressing lost souls. The Holy Spirit and demonic spirits cannot abide in the same place. Light causes darkness to flee.

In context the elect in the passage you allude to is Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you have no concept of either Israel's or Gentile participation with regards to the NT as you have liberally illustrated throughout this and other threads

Paul was sent to the Gentiles. you can call yourself whatever you like unless you are Jewish

right. if demons cannot influence believers, then who is putting on the armor? or do you discredit Paul when he teaches about that?

anyway, in your haste to create a cover for what I said regarding your longstanding opposition and personal hatred for all things tongues, you have now said that if you speak in tongues you are not saved

make the connection

if you believe those who speak in tongues do so from a demonic source, and you also believe that demons cannot influence a believer, you have just asserted that all who speak in tongues do so by a demon and none of them are saved

well

even though it is tempting to keep pointing out the buffoonery that is going on with regards to your personal interpretations, I think I need to stop entertaining whatever it is you personally speak from

sorry...but I think ignore for you is a good option provided and I'm going to use it

 

[shrume]

If giving people understanding/ making other people understand is edification (to them), it only means that self edification is things that one understands on their own. There's no self edification if one doesn't understand what they speak.

That is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Edification=understanding.

Not always.

1 Cor 14: 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Yes, Paul did both.

So should we.

 

[shrume]

No man has the right to say 'saved' or 'unsaved'. Salvation is of the heart and only the Lord knows.

A person can know he is saved.

1 John 5:
10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Most people think they are saved whereas they are not, many think they are not whereas they are. That's why the first shall be the last and narrow is the road that leads to safety.

Not sure about "most", but otherwise I agree.

When Jesus says many, He actually means many.

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

True.

But when a person hears the gospel and believes it, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

 

[Noose]

That is a direct contradiction of scripture:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


Not always.


Yes, Paul did both.

So should we.

How does that mean that the person speaking doesn't understand what they are saying?
Edifying the people is making them understand so self edification means the understanding remains with you and you only. Edification in this context means nothing else but understanding.

You can not claim that Paul uses the edification to mean understanding only for others and the meaning changes when it is used for the speaker of the tongue.

Speech or speaking/languages serves these purposes only:

- Pass understanding to the listeners /letting them know what you know
- let the listener know what is in your mind

There's no other purpose of language/speech/tongues in this entire world.

Paul uses the word edification to mean passing understanding (Gospel) to the listeners, if you fail to do that, the understanding remains with you and hence your understanding is unfruitful. this means the edification is yours only which is also a wrong thing because the gifts of the Holy spirit are to profit all within the body of Christ.

So the issue about self edification is both misunderstood by you and misplaced. There's no self edification when it comes to the gifts of the holy spirit. Paul was not praising the Corinthians, he was castigating them the way i'm doing you.

Speaking mysteries to God means your understanding is unfruitful. The people you are addressing are not understanding so it becomes mystery to them.

1 Cor 14:9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

 

[Noose]

A person can know he is saved.

1 John 5:
10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not hisbrother abideth in death.

13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Not sure about "most", but otherwise I agree.


True.

But when a person hears the gospel and believes it, he is sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

This is where most people go wrong:

Matt 13:
3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

.....
18“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Many will hear the gospel in fact almost everyone in the world has heard the gospel but still many will faill including some that initaially believed.

Daniel 11:33“Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

 

[Dino246]

You are making this up. Nothing in the chapter suggests that praying in an unknown tongue is an activity that produces anything fruitful in the Christian life.

Roger

Verse 4 says, "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." There is not a single verse anywhere that suggests that "edifies" is negative or neutral; it is always positive. So your statement above is incorrect.

 

[Dino246]

Prophesying means "declaring the gospel" in any verse.

Some think prophecy's sole purpose was to point ahead. or predict the future... one of its purpose . Prophecy which was written after things happened gives us an accurate account of one doing the work .

The first words of prophecy.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:1

The last words of prophecy.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.Revelation 21:21

Because this is your view, I see no point in attempting to reason with you any further on this matter. May the Lord bless you.

 

[Noose]

Verse 4 says, "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." There is not a single verse anywhere that suggests that "edifies" is negative or neutral; it is always positive. So your statement above is incorrect.

1 Cor 14:9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

Your understanding is obviously skewed.

 

[Dino246]

Edifying the people is making them understand so self edification means the understanding remains with you and you only. Edification in this context means nothing else but understanding.

You can not claim that Paul uses the edification to mean understanding only for others and the meaning changes when it is used for the speaker of the tongue.

I would encourage you to look up the definition of "edify" and its cognates (edifice, edification, etc.). Your definition does not stand up to examination. "Edifying" people means "building them up", not "making them understand".

 

[Noose]

I would encourage you to look up the definition of "edify" and its cognates (edifice, edification, etc.). Your definition does not stand up to examination. "Edifying" people means "building them up", not "making them understand".

Are we reading dictionary or the bible?
How can people be built when they don't understand? and why interpret a tongue? is it so that people are built instantaneously or so that they understand first?

I'm saying, all Paul is insisting is understanding and the word edification is with respect to understanding. You get the understanding first so that you are built, without the understanding, there's no building up. It is no different when it comes to the speaker of the tongue, they are also built with the understanding they already have, if they can't pass that understanding to others then their understanding is unfruitful.

1 Cor 14:13For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[PS]

I would agree . I see it more like chanting making noise without meaning. For instance hail Mary full of grace, hail Mary full of grace, on and on.... hypnotizing chant.

That is not speaking in tongues.

Perhaps it is best to refrain from commenting until and if people experience the gift for themselves.

 

[Dino246]

Are we reading dictionary or the bible?

Until you know what the word actually means, your interpretation of it is subjective. The word has objective meaning. Ignore that and you have eisegesis.

 

[Noose]

Until you know what the word actually means, your interpretation of it is subjective. The word has objective meaning. Ignore that and you have eisegesis.

I don't need to know what the word means in English for me to understand what Paul is saying. There's no place in the bible where dictionaries are recommended for anyone to understand the bible.

Tongues are interpreted for people to understand (nothing more, nothing less) and understanding is the only context of what Paul is saying when he uses the word edification. And your so called self edification is wrong in different levels:

1. It never means the speaker doesn't understand, it means they do understand but they fail to pass the understanding to others.
2. Self edification is wrong:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

So you are not going to hide under the dictionary here and misrepresent Paul. The gifts are given so that everybody is edified. Paul was not commending self edification and he never meant that the speaker doesn't understand what they are saying.

 

[PS]

1. It never means the speaker doesn't understand, it means they do understand but they fail to pass the understanding to others.
2. Self edification is wrong:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

That is why there needs to be an interpreter present.

 

[Noose]

That is why there needs to be an interpreter present.

IMO, even with the interpreters, we can easily go wrong.

I ask again, who are these people:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It is highly advisable for people not to attach themselves with the so called signs and wonders but wait with humility and perseverance.
These people (Matt 7), we know who they are not; they are not atheists/muslims/Jews (Judaism), pagans, Hindus- which other group is left?
These people will be astonished by their rejection because they thought they were doing everything right. We are living in a time when antichrist has authority over every nation on earth and he comes with fake signs and wonders that serve to lie. the people in Matt 7 call themselves Christians but truth is, they have been duped and the works they are doing are not for God.

It is highly advisable for people not to attach themselves with the so called signs and wonders but wait with humility and perseverance.

 

[PS]

IMO, even with the interpreters, we can easily go wrong.

I ask again, who are these people:

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

You answer your own question.

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice Jesus says "the will of MY father" as opposed to the will of your father who might be the devil.

 

[Dino246]

I don't need to know what the word means in English for me to understand what Paul is saying. There's no place in the bible where dictionaries are recommended for anyone to understand the bible.

Tongues are interpreted for people to understand (nothing more, nothing less) and understanding is the only context of what Paul is saying when he uses the word edification. And your so called self edification is wrong in different levels:

1. It never means the speaker doesn't understand, it means they do understand but they fail to pass the understanding to others.
2. Self edification is wrong:

1 Cor 12:7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

So you are not going to hide under the dictionary here and misrepresent Paul. The gifts are given so that everybody is edified. Paul was not commending self edification and he never meant that the speaker doesn't understand what they are saying.

1 Cor 14:4 says, "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." There is not a single verse anywhere that suggests that "edifies" is negative or neutral; it is always positive. There is not a single verse of Scripture anywhere to suggest that self-edification is in any way negative; it is only your assumption, so your position continues to be incorrect.

I've given up on trying to reason with Garee. I'm close to that point with you. If you flatly refuse to accept the dictionary definition of a word, and insist on a contextual (mis)understanding only, there is little point, because we have ceased to speak the same language.

 

[Noose]

You answer your own question.

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice Jesus says "the will of MY father" as opposed to the will of your father who might be the devil.

But you miss the point, these people are arguing that they drove out demons/ healed/ did many miracles 'in the name of Jesus'. This is just a few in a long list of things that include speaking in tongues.

The list i have provided in my previous post of who these are not not, clearly shows that these kind of miracles happen in the church setting. There's no miracle that comes with a placard written "the will of the Father", so how do you tell that this is the will of the Father and these are not?

When you go about speaking incomprehensible words, how do you tell it is the will of the Father if you don't understand a word you are saying?

2 Thess 2:9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Rev 13:11Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.

These verses are talking about the same thing as Matt 7. Rev 13 even goes further to say that the beast has two horns like that of a lamb- a clear indication that all these things happen in the church through the so called ministers/pastors.

 

[Noose]

1 Cor 14:4 says, "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church." There is not a single verse anywhere that suggests that "edifies" is negative or neutral; it is always positive. There is not a single verse of Scripture anywhere to suggest that self-edification is in any way negative; it is only your assumption, so your position continues to be incorrect.

I've given up on trying to reason with Garee. I'm close to that point with you. If you flatly refuse to accept the dictionary definition of a word, and insist on a contextual (mis)understanding only, there is little point, because we have ceased to speak the same language.

And that verse never meant that the speaker doesn't understand what they say. I have demonstrated to you that edification is in the context of understanding. If others are edified when the tongues are interpreted for their understanding then self edification carries the same meaning - understanding.
No one can claim that they are built in any manner when they don't understand anything.

1 Cor 12: 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

New International Version
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

New Living Translation
A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other.

English Standard Version
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Berean Study Bible
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

Berean Literal Bible
Now to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit, for the common profiting.

New American Standard Bible
But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

King James Bible
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Common good means common good, not self edification. You are wrong no matter how much you try- you need to write your own bible for you to be right. 1 Cor 14:4 and all chapter 14, Paul is not praising anyone for self edification, on the contrary, he reprimands them for selfish and childish practice.

but here's Paul recommendations;

1 Cor 14: 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me.

And even if you pretend to privately pray with unknown language, you are a foreigner to yourself because you don't understand what you are saying.