Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[DevotiontoBible]

Devotional


Ephesians 2 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I have been saved by grace when I believed in Jesus, but this is the gift of God and that includes the ability to believe.

Salvation is the gift not grace or faith. That is why you need an easier translation showing the greek better.

 

[carl11]

Yes, only one view can be right, and since Calvinism CONTRADICTS the Bible, it cannot be right.

Take the issue of limited atonement. The Bible says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but Calvinism contradicts this and distorts the meaning of "the world" in order to accommodate its false teaching that Christ died only for the so-called "elect". So here are the Scriptures.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

There are many others Scriptures all tied into these, but even one verse or passage should be sufficient for the one who believes God. So if you could not honestly say that you believe these passages (which are very plain and clear) it means that you do not believe God, but prefer to believe Calvin.

If the word "all" means "all" then we have a serious problem when we read of the wheat and tares and the sheep and goats. Then we also have to look at the "rapture" as it pertains in that some are left behind, in other words they never became saved and yet it seem that would be a contradiction in as far as the word "all" is concerned. Also look at 1Cor. 15:22 and lets see if the word all means all.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the word "all" means "all" then we have a serious problem when we read of the wheat and tares and the sheep and goats.

Why is that a problem? All MAY BE saved is not the same as ALL SHALL BE saved. God has imposed two conditions which are required for obedience to the Gospel -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
that all men through him might believe
but that the world through him might be saved

Do you see that your argument has not validity?

 

[carl11]

Why is that a problem? All MAY BE saved is not the same as ALL SHALL BE saved. God has imposed two conditions which are required for obedience to the Gospel -- repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
that all men through him might believe
but that the world through him might be saved

Do you see that your argument has not validity?

The problem I am seeing is that everybody is using the word all as in all and not conditional wise. Its just like when one sees the word baptism, many will automatically associate it with water baptism when in reality it may not have anything to do with that of water baptism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The problem I am seeing is that everybody is using the word all as in all and not conditional wise.

Let's stay on topic. How do you interpret this?

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:7).

We could add many more verses where "all" means all without any question.

So would you have preferred that John had written "some"? Of course. But John was presenting Gospel truth, while Calvinism presents Gospel error.

 

[Pilkington]

Salvation is the gift not grace or faith. That is why you need an easier translation showing the greek better.

I quoted the verse from the NLT your favourite translation and that is the way I understand the passage. There is the difference in the way we read the passage that you see only salvation as the gift where as I see salvation, grace and faith all as being God's gifts.
You are not doing yourself any favours by saying I need an easier translation showing the greek better, again your being patronising. As I said before maybe I should learn to read Greek. Come to that Do you read the orginal Greek DevotiontoBible

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I quoted the verse from the NLT your favourite translation and that is the way I understand the passage. There is the difference in the way we read the passage that you see only salvation as the gift where as I see salvation, grace and faith all as being God's gifts.
You are not doing yourself any favours by saying I need an easier translation showing the greek better, again your being patronising. As I said before maybe I should learn to read Greek. Come to that Do you read the orginal Greek DevotiontoBible

You quoted thr NLT but your interpretation is not from the NLT. It doesn't say "and these are the gifts of God" in fact no translation uses a plural pronoun to refer to faith, grace, and salvation. Greek uses gender nouns and pronouns. In this instance the gender of grace and faith do not match the gender with "THIS" (is not of yourself)". But it does match up with "saved". Salvationis a gift we don't earn our salvation.

 

[Pilkington]

DevotedtoBible I am going to walk away from this conversation as it will be of no benefit to me or to you. As I have said previously I believe is a secondary issues and both Arminians and Calvanists are both saved.

 

[carl11]

Let's stay on topic. How do you interpret this?

The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. (John 1:7).

We could add many more verses where "all" means all without any question.

So would you have preferred that John had written "some"? Of course. But John was presenting Gospel truth, while Calvinism presents Gospel error.

Ok, Christ would love for all, all in the world to believe. But we know from the Bible that all will not believe, so now who are the all ? It would have to be all of God's elect or better said all that he has chosen in him and so with that in mind who are the all that God has in view when he uses the words elect, chosen, his people...etc ?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

DevotedtoBible I am going to walk away from this conversation as it will be of no benefit to me or to you. As I have said previously I believe is a secondary issues and both Arminians and Calvanists are both saved.

I don't know why someone like you thinks learning what the Bible actually says is of no benefit. When I was first saved I had a hunger to learn what the Bible says and I still do. I would rather learn what is Bible and what is man's philosophy. Calvinism is a philisophy.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

. As I said before maybe I should learn to read Greek. Come to that Do you read the orginal Greek DevotiontoBible

No, I don't read Greek but I use publications from those who do. This is a Greek grammarian. His work helps me. AT Robertson Word Pictures, Eph 2:8:
For by grace (th gar cariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse Romans 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pistew). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse Romans 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tauth, and so refers not to pisti (feminine) or to cari (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex umwn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (dwron) and not the result of our work.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/ephesians/ephesians-2-8.html

 

[Danny1988]

Yes, only one view can be right, and since Calvinism CONTRADICTS the Bible, it cannot be right.

Take the issue of limited atonement. The Bible says that Christ died for the sins of the whole world, but Calvinism contradicts this and distorts the meaning of "the world" in order to accommodate its false teaching that Christ died only for the so-called "elect". So here are the Scriptures.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ABOUT THIS?]

There are many others Scriptures all tied into these, but even one verse or passage should be sufficient for the one who believes God. So if you could not honestly say that you believe these passages (which are very plain and clear) it means that you do not believe God, but prefer to believe Calvin.

You conveniently ignore the mountains of verses which support Calvin's view. I will list some here for you soon, others have already listed heaps of verses but you guys just ignore them or simple say they are out of context. How convenient

You can't just close one eye and ignore half of the Bible to accommodate your false view, that's why I said the reprobate will never understand the Bible. The truth is hidden from them, their fate is sealed. Only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth of the Gospel

 

[DevotiontoBible]

You conveniently ignore the mountains of verses which support Calvin's view. I will list some here for you soon, others have already listed heaps of verses but you guys just ignore them or simple say they are out of context. How convenient

You can't just close one eye and ignore half of the Bible to accommodate your false view, that's why I said the reprobate will never understand the Bible. The truth is hidden from them, their fate is sealed. Only those who have the Holy Spirit can understand the truth of the Gospel

No, mountains of verses do not support Calvinism unless using eiseges then you can make anything supported by Bible verses...slavery, genocide, Communism...anything.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Ok, Christ would love for all, all in the world to believe. But we know from the Bible that all will not believe, so now who are the all ? It would have to be all of God's elect or better said all that he has chosen in him and so with that in mind who are the all that God has in view when he uses the words elect, chosen, his people...etc ?

You continue to miss the point. All may be saved, but all will not be saved because all will not obey the Gospel. That is all there is to it.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).

 

[carl11]

You continue to miss the point. All may be saved, but all will not be saved because all will not obey the Gospel. That is all there is to it.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).

No I'm not missing the point I understand what you are conveying. Maybe the problem lies in how you are using the word all. Like I mentioned before and the more I read it over and over again how you and others are using this word I'm convinced that you are implying all. All, as in give me all of the marbles and not as give me all of the marbles "except" black. In other words it appears on one hand there are no conditions and then on the other hand there are conditions.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No I'm not missing the point I understand what you are conveying. Maybe the problem lies in how you are using the word all. Like I mentioned before and the more I read it over and over again how you and others are using this word I'm convinced that you are implying all. All, as in give me all of the marbles and not as give me all of the marbles "except" black. In other words it appears on one hand there are no conditions and then on the other hand there are conditions.

But the Bible never says anything like that God wills that all may be saved except for the black people.

 

[carl11]

But the Bible never says anything like that God wills that all may be saved except for the black people.

God says he would like for all to repent, all to call on his name, all to believe....etc but the problem is that not all or everybody in this world will do these things. Only all, namely that of his chosen people whom that may ever be and wherever they may be will do these things when God decides when it is their time to become saved.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

God says he would like for all to repent, all to call on his name, all to believe....etc but the problem is that not all or everybody in this world will do these things. Only all, namely that of his chosen people whom that may ever be and wherever they may be will do these things when God decides when it is their time to become saved.

Baloney. The Bible never says that.

 

[shrume]

God says he would like for all to repent, all to call on his name, all to believe....etc but the problem is that not all or everybody in this world will do these things. Only all, namely that of his chosen people whom that may ever be and wherever they may be will do these things when God decides when it is their time to become saved.

I see what you are saying, carl... But I do not agree.

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe the word "all" in that verse actually means "all" people, and not the ones He predetermined would be saved.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe the word "any" in that verse actually means anyone, and not just any of the ones He predetermined would be saved.

And God does not determine when it's a person's time to be saved.

 

[garee]

Salvation is the gift not grace or faith. That is why you need an easier translation showing the greek better.

Christ's faith as that which comes from hearing God is the work of God that works in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure without it a person has "no faith" to please God .The gift is faith .