Speaking in tongues

[Noose]

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Matthew 7:11




you seem to have some kind of agenda

what you say is false. whatever spirit is telling you to be anti-prayer is deceiving you

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God Luke 6:12

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up Luke 18:1

Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God
Philippians 4:6

Devote yourselves to prayer, being watchful and thankful Colossians 4:2

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him Proverbs 15:8

Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Romans 12:12

The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. Psalm 145:18

If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Matthew 7:11

so you know, if you think we do not need to pray, take it up with God...but then I suppose you would have to pray to be able to do so

I'll let scripture be my final word. no one will make you pray, but the Bible has different instruction then do you

It is your understanding of the word 'ask' and 'prayer' that i have a problem with.

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

The word 'ask' in the above verses means need. A need is something embedded in someone's heart- it can be expressed through speech but it is not necessary because the Father who dwells in the hearts of the believers already knows what they need, so He fulfills according to His riches. This is what we call good gifts.

I'll ask you a question. Now that you consider prayer to be something spoken, do those people with no ability to speak have a chance in the kingdom of God?

for example:
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

A poor person with no sight and no ability to speak will definitely fall into temptation and is automatically qualified because they can't pray?

 

[PS]

I'll ask you a question. Now that you consider prayer to be something spoken, do those people with no ability to speak have a chance in the kingdom of God?

for example: “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

A poor person with no sight and no ability to speak will definitely fall into temptation and is automatically qualified because they can't pray?

Jesus is talking hypothetically, or as the ISV has it, figuratively and in the King James "in parables."

On that day, you will not ask me for anything. Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, whatever you ask the Father for in my name, he will give it to you. So far you haven't asked for anything in my name. Keep asking and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete." "I have said these things to you in figurative language. The time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language but will tell you plainly about the Father. (Joh 16:23-25 ISV)

Jesus is talking about his ascension, "On that day" you will not ask me for anything. However, as you say God knows the heart.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It is your understanding of the word 'ask' and 'prayer' that i have a problem with.

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

The word 'ask' in the above verses means need. A need is something embedded in someone's heart- it can be expressed through speech but it is not necessary because the Father who dwells in the hearts of the believers already knows what they need, so He fulfills according to His riches. This is what we call good gifts.

I'll ask you a question. Now that you consider prayer to be something spoken, do those people with no ability to speak have a chance in the kingdom of God?

for example:
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” Matthew 26:41

A poor person with no sight and no ability to speak will definitely fall into temptation and is automatically qualified because they can't pray?

seems have your own version of the Bible and certainly your own understanding

I don't know how that came about, but I will stick with scripture and for some reason you have chosen not to do so

do YOU have sight? apparently you do. so then, how do you manage to ignore all the scripture on prayer?

do YOU have the ability to speak? I don't know...maybe you don't? since we cannot actually here you

you have stated we do not need to pray. that is the discussion I have had with you and you offer absolutely no acknowledgement of the good number (but by no means exhaustive as the Bible is filled with illustrations of prayer from beginning to end) of verses I posted

that is the response of someone who has been proven wrong, cannot admit it and still wishes to appear superior in some way

I am sure you actually know you are wrong but have decided to continue to appear right

stop wasting my time when you cannot be honest and admit all those verses relate to prayer

you have chosen a couple of verses upon which you erroneously posit that we no longer pray

you are wrong and it seems you will stay that way

 

[Noose]

seems have your own version of the Bible and certainly your own understanding

I don't know how that came about, but I will stick with scripture and for some reason you have chosen not to do so

do YOU have sight? apparently you do. so then, how do you manage to ignore all the scripture on prayer?

do YOU have the ability to speak? I don't know...maybe you don't? since we cannot actually here you

you have stated we do not need to pray. that is the discussion I have had with you and you offer absolutely no acknowledgement of the good number (but by no means exhaustive as the Bible is filled with illustrations of prayer from beginning to end) of verses I posted

that is the response of someone who has been proven wrong, cannot admit it and still wishes to appear superior in some way

I am sure you actually know you are wrong but have decided to continue to appear right

stop wasting my time when you cannot be honest and admit all those verses relate to prayer

you have chosen a couple of verses upon which you erroneously posit that we no longer pray

you are wrong and it seems you will stay that way

You are wasting your own time. I never said we don't pray and i never said people should stop praying- you can pray without ceasing if you want but know that prayer is a need deeply embedded in your heart and not necessarily the spoken request.

 

[shrume]

You are wasting your own time. I never said we don't pray and i never said people should stop praying- you can pray without ceasing if you want but know that prayer is a need deeply embedded in your heart and not necessarily the spoken request.

Prayers are not needs.

Prayer simply means to ask. We pray for our needs to be met.

And before you bring up mute people, we do not have to pray out loud.

 

[Noose]

Prayers are not needs.

Prayer simply means to ask. We pray for our needs to be met.

And before you bring up mute people, we do not have to pray out loud.

So how do you not pray loud? is praying in silence still a prayer?
Exactly my point- Prayer is a need in your heart, you can mate it known to physical ears (for show) but to God, it is unnecessary to make it known by speaking it, God already knows what you need. He knew you before you were born.

Speech is nothing but making known what is in your heart/mind to listening ears. Without speech, what is in your heart remains in your heart and is never affected by lack of speech. It is what is in the heart that is important not the means of making it known to other humans.
The new covenant operates in the spirit level in our hearts not physical ears.

 

[shrume]

So how do you not pray loud? is praying in silence still a prayer?

Of course.

Exactly my point- Prayer is a need in your heart, you can mate it known to physical ears (for show) but to God, it is unnecessary to make it known by speaking it, God already knows what you need. He knew you before you were born.

Prayers are not needs. We pray (ask) for our needs, or the needs of others, to be met.

Speech is nothing but making known what is in your heart/mind to listening ears.

Speech is the mechanism we use to verbally communicate with others.

Without speech, what is in your heart remains in your heart and is never affected by lack of speech.

There are other ways to share your heart.

It is what is in the heart that is important not the means of making it known to other humans.

True.

The new covenant operates in the spirit level in our hearts not physical ears.

That does not negate God's command to pray.

 

[calibob]

Of course.


Prayers are not needs. We pray (ask) for our needs, or the needs of others, to be met.


Speech is the mechanism we use to verbally communicate with others.


There are other ways to share your heart.


True.


That does not negate God's command to pray.

The lord instructed us to go pray in a closet and not to make a show out of our faith like pharisees and sadducees did

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The lord instructed us to go pray in a closet and not to make a show out of our faith like pharisees and sadducees did

I don't think this means never pray in public

Jesus was simply saying don't be a fake

 

[Dino246]

...

When i say these things ceased best believe me.

I most certainly do not believe you. Rather, I believe the Scripture, which states, "Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

The problem with your position is that "the perfect" has not come. In that sense, Paul was writing in the same age in which we presently exist. Presently, we know in part. If you think otherwise, you are wasting your time here and should be out curing every disease, fixing every energy and pollution problem, and resolving every conflict, with that allegedly complete knowledge of yours.

 

[Dino246]

This type of reasoning creates a serious problem for tongues advocates today. And here's why.

Some of us believe that tongues ceased at the end of the apostolic era. Others, like yourself contend that tongues won't cease until we meet Christ "face to face" .. because you claim that Jesus is the "perfect (completeness) to come" .. and not His written Word.

In either scenario though, it remains true that in the presence of Jesus Christ our Lord, tongues will no longer be. So why are they present in heaven now, if what you claim is true ?

Your reasoning needs a tweak. You launch into your argument with the statement, "and here's why." However, you haven't actually given a reason why.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You are wasting your own time. I never said we don't pray and i never said people should stop praying- you can pray without ceasing if you want but know that prayer is a need deeply embedded in your heart and not necessarily the spoken request.

well it's my time to waste LOL

however, you ignore all scripture on prayer

you make this strange comment:

Noose said:
Uuum
Jesus raised the dead and drove out demons from a possessed man; non of them prayed.
Someone thinks they are special just because they can pray.

it was after that I reminded you that Jesus did in fact pray and I have posted a good number of scriptures on prayer as well which totally ignored

it seems you have your own doctrine on prayer which doesn't line up with the Bible

 

[calibob]

Your reasoning needs a tweak. You launch into your argument with the statement, "and here's why." However, you haven't actually given a reason why.

Whenever i don't think i know the answer to something, i just admit i don't know

 

[7seasrekeyed]

here is another interesting 'conclusion' from Noose #1058

John 16: 23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

The word 'ask' as used in this passage has nothing to do with speech. It only means that prayer is a need not a speech. In that day (now is), you shall not need anything because your need shall be fulfilled.

you badly misunderstood what is being said here

in what day that we shall no longer 'ask, has not yet happened

until then, follow what scripture says about prayer

 

[calibob]

just read 1st corin ch 13, again.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I missed this comment by you Noose...posted to me

I'll ask you a question. Now that you consider prayer to be something spoken, do those people with no ability to speak have a chance in the kingdom of God?

I never said that prayer must be said outloud. I don't believe it does

that, is your foregone conclusion

 

[Dino246]

The sign is against those who refuse prophecy .I t as the word of God (no outward sign to them) is for those who will beleive prophecy.

No such thing as a sign gift to confirm anything.

Either there are signs or there are no signs. Here you contradict yourself, claiming in one sentence that tongues are a sign for those who refuse prophecy, and in the next, that there are no such things as signs.

Tongues, is God speaking prophecy as the inspired word of God in other languages other than Hebrews alone. It was a sign against the unbelieving Jew that would not hear prophecy. And encouraging words to those who did believe prophecy alone(no oral traditions of men )

I am honestly amazed at your continual conflation of two distinct concepts. You even contradict yourself, again. I would ask you to answer this simple, straightforward question:

What Scripture tells you that tongues is God speaking prophecy?

No bafflegab, no irrelevant statements, just directly-relevant Scripture, please, because I've read through the entire Bible many times, and I can't find it.

Paul wrote first apostles, simply those who are sent to bring prophecy). Secondly recognized as prophets .

Apostles are not those who bring prophecy. Prophets are those who bring prophecy. Two different gifts.

God sends, defining the Greek word apostle with no other meaning added (sent ones) the prophets, with prophecy to help administration (administer the gospel) with various kinds languages. No longer Hebrew alone.

We should be careful like with the word apostle ….words have meaning attached to them .When men add new meaning it can change the authors intent and therefore how we can hear Him and not men .

We should indeed be careful with words. However, I did not attempt to redefine the words; that is your doing, and I sincerely believe that your definitions are not consistent with Scripture. I honestly am beginning to wonder where you learned all this, because it seems to me that you are doing exactly what you warn against doing - redefining key words to fit your belief, and unable to hear the author's intent.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

well here are some good descriptions of what BIBLICAL prayer is .

The most basic definition of prayer is “talking to God.” Prayer is not meditation or passive reflection; it is direct address to God. It is the communication of the human soul with the Lord who created the soul. Prayer is the primary way for the believer in Jesus Christ to communicate his emotions and desires with God and to fellowship with God.

Prayer can be audible or silent, private or public, formal or informal. All prayer must be offered in faith (James 1:6), in the name of the Lord Jesus (John 16:23), and in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26). As the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia puts it, “Christian prayer in its full New Testament meaning is prayer addressed to God as Father, in the name of Christ as Mediator, and through the enabling grace of the indwelling Spirit” (“Prayer” by J. C. Lambert). The wicked have no desire to pray (Psalm 10:4), but the children of God have a natural desire to pray (Luke 11:1).

Prayer is described in the Bible as seeking God’s favor (Exodus 32:11), pouring out one’s soul to the Lord (1 Samuel 1:15), crying out to heaven (2 Chronicles 32:20), drawing near to God (Psalm 73:28, KJV), and kneeling before the Father (Ephesians 3:14).

Paul wrote, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:6–7). Worry about nothing; pray about everything.

Everything? Yes, God wants us to talk with Him about everything. How often should we pray? The biblical answer is “pray without ceasing” (1 Thessalonians 5:17). We should keep a running conversation going with God all day long. Some find the ACTS formula of prayer helpful, but there is really no special formula for how to pray in the Bible. We should just do it. We can pray under any and all circumstances. Prayer develops our relationship with God and demonstrates our trust and utter dependence upon Him.

Prayer is the Christian’s way of communicating with God. We pray to praise God and thank Him and tell Him how much we love Him. We pray to enjoy His presence and tell Him what is going on in our lives. We pray to make requests and seek guidance and ask for wisdom. God loves this exchange with His children, just as we love the exchange we have with our children. Fellowship with God is the heart of prayer. Too often we lose sight of how simple prayer is really supposed to be.

When we make petitions to God, we let God know exactly where we stand and what we would like to see happen. In our prayers, we must admit that God is greater than we are and ultimately knows what is best in any given situation (Romans 11:33–36). God is good and asks us to trust Him. In prayer, we say, essentially, “Not my will, but your will be done.” The key to answered prayer is praying according to the will of God and in accordance with His Word. Prayer is not seeking our own will but seeking to align ourselves with the will of God more fully (1 John 5:14–15; James 4:3).

The Bible contains many examples of prayer and plenty of exhortations to pray (see Luke 18:1; Romans 12:12; and Ephesians 6:18). God’s house is to be a house of prayer (Mark 11:17), and God’s people are to be people of prayer: “Dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love” (Jude 1:20–21).

source

 

[yellowcanary]

Your reasoning needs a tweak. You launch into your argument with the statement, "and here's why." However, you haven't actually given a reason why.

No worries Dino. It's beyond your level of comprehension.

 

[Waggles]

It is so wonderfully spiritually appropriate that praying in a new tongue is the confirmation given of a
convert being baptized in the Holy Spirit - being infilled by the Spirit of God.
It makes perfect sense - a new spiritual prayer language for a new spiritual person …

5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindles!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body,
and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and has been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
James 3: