Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#81
God is not sovereign over all things. Many things that happen in this world are not God's will. Every time a person sins, it is not God's will. Every time a woman is raped, it is not God's will. Every time a murder is committed, it is not God's will.
Yes God is, he allows things to happen, he is not slack concerning his promise wishing all would be saved, but he is soverign.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#82
"...[He] works all things according to the counsel of his will."
Eph 1:11
If you think that verse is saying God is responsible for everything that happens, or that everything that happens is God's will, you do not understand that verse.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#84
If you think that verse is saying God is responsible for everything that happens, or that everything that happens is God's will, you do not understand that verse.
I am saying that God works all things according to his will.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#85
I am saying that God works all things according to his will.
How do you understand it?

If a woman is brutally raped, was it God's will?

If a person, in a fit of road rage, shoots a mother and her kids, was it God's will?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#86
How do you understand it?

If a woman is brutally raped, was it God's will?

If a person, in a fit of road rage, shoots a mother and her kids, was it God's will?
Read Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz for better understanding. I will try to illustrate:

There is a ball moving by you. You can change the direction of its movement to a direction you want.

There are evil creatures making evil. God can direct it to a direction He wants. He is not responsible for the evil, but He works everything according to His will.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#87
Read Theodicy by G.W. Leibniz for better understanding. I will try to illustrate:

There is a ball moving by you. You can change the direction of its movement to a direction you want.

There are evil creatures making evil. God can direct it to a direction He wants. He is not responsible for the evil, but He works everything according to His will.
How does God "work a woman being raped" according to His will? What does that mean?

And please don't say "well, there are some things we just don't understand, but God has His reasons."
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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#88
How does God "work a woman being raped" according to His will? What does that mean?

And please don't say "well, there are some things we just don't understand, but God has His reasons."
God takes a lot of gory when a rapist enters into hell where he will scream in the fires of hell for eternity. While the victim enjoys eternal paradise, she will not even remember what happened because she will be overwhelmed with joy and happiness
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#89
How does God "work a woman being raped" according to His will? What does that mean?

And please don't say "well, there are some things we just don't understand, but God has His reasons."
1. Of course there are things we do not understand and God has His reasons. Why should not I say this?

2. Generally, evil God allows leads to higher good. The fall of Adam leads to be God's sons through Christ, for example.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#90
God takes a lot of gory when a rapist enters into hell where he will scream in the fires of hell for eternity.
First, the unsaved will be destroyed.

Second, assuming your scenario was true, how does God get glory when a person "screams in the fires of hell for eternity"?

While the victim enjoys eternal paradise, she will not even remember what happened because she will be overwhelmed with joy and happiness
It is true that "every tear will be wiped away".
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#91
1. Of course there are things we do not understand and God has His reasons. Why should not I say this?

2. Generally, evil God allows leads to higher good. The fall of Adam leads to be God's sons through Christ, for example.
Some things are just evil, with no "higher good" to them at all.

It was not God's intent for Adam to sin.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#92
Some things are just evil, with no "higher good" to them at all.

It was not God's intent for Adam to sin.
The fact that you cannot see everything and that you cannot know how everything ends does not make it necessary that there is no good in the end to all things.

God created this Universe as it is, therefore He thinks its good.
 

Pilkington

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2015
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#93
God takes a lot of gory when a rapist enters into hell where he will scream in the fires of hell for eternity. While the victim enjoys eternal paradise, she will not even remember what happened because she will be overwhelmed with joy and happiness
Yes there are consequences for sin and consequences if we do not believe in Jesus for salvation. What happens if the rapist repents and puts his trust in Jesus his sin's are forgiven but he will have eternal life. God would also be glorified through him coming to faith.

God is also glorified through an awful situation if the victim forgives the rapist.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#94
The fact that you cannot see everything and that you cannot know how everything ends does not make it necessary that there is no good in the end to all things.
There is no good in some things.

God created this Universe as it is, therefore He thinks its good.
Actually, it was "very good". But that was before the fall.

One day, everything will be fixed.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
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#96
First, the unsaved will be destroyed.

Second, assuming your scenario was true, how does God get glory when a person "screams in the fires of hell for eternity"?


It is true that "every tear will be wiped away".
The reprobate will burn forever, because they will never be able to pay the penalty for their sins as they will continue to sin while they're in hell. So it's a perpetual punishment bought on by the sinner continuing to blaspheme the Name of God while he burns, so his time keeps extending.
The reprobate will sin without restraint in hell, when God removes His restraining influence which the sinner had during their life. His sin will be unrestrained and the punishment will be poured out in full measure without any restraint.
It will be truly horrific, it will be far beyond anything we can imagine. God doesn't do things by halves, He deals in big measures. His love is beyond measure and so is His righteous indignation towards wickedness
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#98
God takes a lot of gory when a rapist enters into hell where he will scream in the fires of hell for eternity. While the victim enjoys eternal paradise, she will not even remember what happened because she will be overwhelmed with joy and happiness
Wow, i don’t even know what to say, god loved that rapist just as much as he did the woman, he would take greater glory if that rapist repented and was born again,

He takes no glory for ne person going to hell, what he would have is great sorrow, just as he did when he had to turn his back on Israel and let them suffer at the hands of rome.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#99
Along with the curse of sin came the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and all mankind inherited the curse of sin and the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge demands that man choose as we see in John 3:18-21.

Calvinists overcook total depravity into total inability. God gave us the ability to choose.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If I have the ability to choose not to sin, what do I need Jesus for? I could just not sin.

that is not what is being said

the first consideration is salvation...that is what the real discussion is

we either have no choice in our choise or we do have a choice

I don't see where someone is saying we can choose not to sin...that seems like a strawman to me
 
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whatev

Guest
Why do y'all argue over this if no one is listening to each other?